I agree that the Catholic Church is not a denomination. But yes, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Sincerely,
De Maria
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I agree that the Catholic Church is not a denomination. But yes, the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Sincerely,
De Maria
I agree. Jesus only established one Church. Denominations came about when people broke away from that one Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I disagree. I believe the Catholic Church is the one established by Jesus Christ. I can see Her Teachings in Scripture and I can trace Her historically back to the time of Christ.Quote:
including yours were in existence in the first century or established by Jesus.
Advice I give you whole heartedly. Especially in searching for Sola Scriptura in Scripture. You will find, if you do so, that Scripture alone contradicts Scripture.Quote:
Like most errors, taking a verse out of context can be seen by reading the context. Read the passage of scripture just before that verse to see what Jesus said that He would build his church upon. But this topic is a distraction because we agreed that Jesus did not establish a denomination, so let's consider what it was that He did establish.
Will you take the challenge? Please provide the Scriptures that you believe attest to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
Yes. He established His Church and He called it Church. And He gave His Church the mandate to be make disciples of the world, in other words, to be Catholic.Quote:
As I indicated previously, my Bible indicates that He established the body of believers - do you agree?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Has anyone answered the question yet? If so, I missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
What I want to know is why nonCatholics say we should neglect the Church when Scripture obviously puts great import on the Church?
Sincerely,
De Maria
ANSWER: who says listen to scripture alone?
I have not heard anybody say listen to scripture alone yet.
Where do you get that anybody is saying listen to scripture alone?
De Maria, You are correct.
And if one reads Scripture carefully and correctly one sees that Jesus was addressing Peter directly and speaking of him when he said to Peter, You are rock and on this rock I will build My Church.
Also tie that with Jesus speaking in the parable about building a house on a rock and not sand which is tiny pebbles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Its been a while since I started this thread, but I believe I started it in response to someone on this forum saying just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
In addition, I think TJ does. And even if TJ doesn't, there is a long tradition of people in the reformed traditions who claim that Scripture alone is the rule of faith. Therefore, they don't believe that the Church is infallible nor that the Church has authority over man.
Are you saying that you don't believe in Scripture alone?
Sincerely,
De Maria
I believe that Church teachings should be backed by scripture but then you have different denominations that say THEY are the only ones that interpret it right.
N0help4u,
Tj is but one of many who believe in the heresy of scripture alone called Sola Scriptora.
These passages also demonstrate that Scipture alone is NOT a biblical teaching.
NO WHERE in the bible is a statement that "scripture alone" is to be believed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
That is correct. In fact, Church teachings are essentially interpretation of Scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Including the Catholic Church. And one of them is correct because Scripture says that the Church of Christ is the Pillar of Truth. That means that Christ's Church is infallible.Quote:
but then you have different denominations that say THEY are the only ones that interpret it right.
I believe that Church is the Catholic Church for the reasons I've previously mentioned.
Sincerely,
De Maria
N0help4u,
Yes there are some who claim to be the right or best church, but that doies not make it so.
Jesus established one Church he called My Church and the bible referres to it as The Church in many different verses.
At the very beginning there was just one Church and the bible clearly shows that Peter was the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Quite right. I have seen many claim that their denomination was the only one established by Jesus and that they are the only true church, and you are right - such a claim does not make it so.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Jesus established the body of Christ, not a denomination. The first denomination did not even start until 325 AD.
Actually, even scripture shows that there were may different churches, if you are referring to organized churches, and since there was no denomination, Peter could not have been the head. Indeed, there is only one true church, which is not an organization, but rather is the body for Christ of which Jesus alone is the head.Quote:
At the very beginning there was just one Church and the bible clearly shows that Peter was the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Eph 5:23-24
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
NKJV
N0help4u
The book ON This Rock does a very thorough job of showing all that Scripture has to say about The Church and who was appointed by Jesus to be the leader thereof.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
A heresy which is taught in scripture. Hmmmm. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Really? Do show us.Quote:
These passages also demonstrate that Scipture alone is NOT a biblical teaching.
What was the one source that Jesus used when established what sound doctrine was? I bet you don't answer. ;)Quote:
NO WHERE in the bible is a statement that "scripture alone" is to be believed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Do you know who scripture says that the Rock is?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1 Cor 10:4
Or they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
NKJV
Throughout scripture, we find that the Rock is symbolic of Christ. Any teaching or tradition which says otherwise is in contradiction to God's word.
[QUOTE=De Maria]Its been a while since I started this thread, but I believe I started it in response to someone on this forum saying just that.
In addition, I think TJ does. And even if TJ doesn't, there is a long tradition of people in the reformed traditions who claim that Scripture alone is the rule of faith.
[/quote[]
I never said to listen to scripture alone. I said that scripture alone is the standard of truth. Many who do not understand or have never studied Sola Scriptura post the erroneous understanding that it means that we listen to scripture alone.
No denomination is inafallible, nor will you find such a concept in scripture. So any tradition that claims otherwise is in contradiction to scripture. God alone is perfect and infallible.Quote:
Therefore, they don't believe that the Church is infallible nor that the Church has authority over man.
That is the problem. When a denomination - any denomination - claims the right to interpret scripture, they are teaching contrary to scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
Note that this say "NO MAN". That means none of us on this thread, that means not the pastor at your church or mine, not the head of the Church of England, not the Pope, no one.
Scripture interprets scripture.
Tj3,
Once again the bible teaches in several different passages which I have posted sever times for you over the years and again I posted them here today.
You chose to ignore ALL that the bible says about that and of course that is your right to believe as you wish.
The bible teaches no heresies for which to believe.
That has been dreamed up by people who came along after Jesus establishef His Church with Peter as its first leader.
Nothing you can say or will change that fact of Biblical Truth and actual history.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Tj3,
Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter which means rock.
Jesus said that Peter would be THE Rock on which he would build His Church and that prophesy came true and has been true for 2000 years.
Those are facts whether you want to believe them or not.
All of your arguments otherwise are useless in the face of those facts.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Actually, it means "stone"Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
John 1:42
42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas" (which is translated, A Stone).
NKJV
Actually was the declaration of who Jesus is. Jesus is the foundation of the church.Quote:
Jesus said that Peter would be THE Rock on which he would build His Church and that prophesy came true and has been true for 2000 years.
1 Cor 3:11-12
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
NKJV
If a tradition claims that there is any foundation other then Christ (whether it be Peter or something/someone else), it is in contradiction to scripture.
Those are facts whether you want to believe them or not.
All of your arguments otherwise are useless in the face of those facts.
Tj3,
Twist it ant way you want to, Tom, but a rock is a stone and a stone is a rock.
I know what the bible and history says so anything you say in attempt to make me believe otherwise is useless.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
It is funny, Fred, but all I did was quote what the Bible says and you call it twisting. Given a choice between accepting what scripture says, and your personal interpretation and changes, I'll stick with scrtipture.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
In essence, you are saying that I don't know what Sola Scriptura means, am I correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Ok, then please, define it for me. Then we can search the Scriptures like good Bereans to see if it is taught in Scripture.
What does Scripture mean then, when It calls the Church, the "Pillar of Truth"? (1 Tim 3:15). By what stretch of the imagination, does that description depict a fallible Church?Quote:
No denomination is inafallible, nor will you find such a concept in scripture. So any tradition that claims otherwise is in contradiction to scripture. God alone is perfect and infallible.
Also, is God unjust, that He would punish those who do not listen to the Church when the Church might be wrong? (Matt 18:17)
And finally, are you infallible? If not, then why do you argue as though I must believe you as opposed to believing the Church? After all, what makes you better than the Church at interpreting Scripture?
Please answer these questions. I always answer all of yours.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Tom didn't say your interpretation of Sola Scriptura is wrong but that you assume that anybody who says back it WITH scripture believes in sola scriptura when we have told you time and again we do not follow sola scriptura but do not think the Church should interpret it any way they feel like it to make up their own traditions. You claim the Catholic church was the first church but according to Acts the Pentacostal church follows Acts and the Bible far closer than the Catholic teachings.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Again that does not defend any one denomination and it means the true believers as a wholeQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Again you are putting all your faith in the Catholic churchQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I believe you said you didn't follow Sola. Did Tom say he doesn't follow Sola Scriptura? Where? When?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
The Church doesn't interpret Scripture anyway they feel like it. The Church interprets Scripture infallibly.Quote:
but do not think the Church should interpret it any way they feel like it to make up their own traditions.
And the Church doesn't make up traditions. The Traditions of the Church are the Traditions of God passed down by the Apostles.
But I'll ask you the same thing. What makes your interpretation of Scripture better than the Church's interpretation of Scripture?
I for one, am a follower of Christ. I see the Church's interpretations and I see yours and I believe the Church. Why do you believe that I should believe you? Are you infallible?
Whenever you want to compare Pentescostal beliefs and Catholic beliefs with Scripture, let me know. I am ready, willing and able.Quote:
You claim the Catholic church was the first church but according to Acts the Pentacostal church follows Acts and the Bible far closer than the Catholic teachings.
Really? Where do you find that in Scripture?Quote:
Again that does not defend any one denomination and it means the true believers as a whole
In Scripture, the Church is portrayed as a visible entity to whom one may go when one has a problem. How does one approach all believers as a whole?
Again, Scripture tells me to have faith in the Church. Why do you seem to counsel me to disobey Scripture? Are you better than Scripture?Quote:
Again you are putting all your faith in the Catholic church
So, lets back up. You claim that you insist I back up my teachings with Scripture. Is what's good for the goose good for the gander? Show me where Scripture says I may disobey the Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You are too set in the Church being the Catholic church that you can never see past that point. And Toms has said several times that the teaching has to be backed up by scripture
He never said that he believes scripture alone.
For example; I am sure he believes in the Trinity and other doctrines that are not named in the Bible but he finds the doctrine backed up by scripture therefore he is not sola scriptura as you claim.
Where? Show me TJ, where is Sola Scriptura taught in Scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I've shown you over and over. Since you have not defined Sola for us, I have to define it according to the old Lutheran teaching that Scripture is the sole rule of faith.Quote:
Really? Do show us.
However, that is clearly a contradiction of Scripture.
Scripture shows that we must believe our leaders:
Hebrews 13 7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow,.
Scripture shows us that the Church is the Pillar of Truth:
1 Timothy 3 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Scripture tells us there are penalties for not obeying the Church:
Matthew 18 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
All this contradicts Sola Scriptura.
I bet I do. Jesus used many sources. Most of all His innate wisdom.Quote:
What was the one source that Jesus used when established what sound doctrine was? I bet you don't answer. ;)
Luke 4 22 And all gave testimony to him: and they wondered at the words of grace that proceeded from his mouth, and they said: Is not this the son of Joseph?
What you probably don't know is that the parables which Jesus used were not completely original. They were taken from Jewish tradition.
Here's an example: Tell me if you recognize it. From the great Gamaliel:
"A person in whom there are good deeds and who has studied the Torah extensively, what is he like? A man who builds first [of] stones and then afterwards [of] mud bricks. Even if a large quantity of water were to collect beside the stones, it would not destroy them. But a person in whom there are no good deeds, though he has studied Torah, what is he like? A man who builds first [of] mud bricks and then afterwards [of] stones. Even if only a little water collects, it immediately undermines them."
RABBINIC PARABLES
Here's another:
The Broken Oath
Come (and) hear!
Valeria the proselyte asked Rabban Gamaliel (II):
--"Why is it written in your Torah:
--'He does not lift up (his) countenance..." (Deut 10:17c)
while it is written:
--'The LORD lift up his countenance upon you' (Num 6:26)?"
Joining in, Rabbi José the Priest said to her:
--"I'll give you a parable.
To what is this matter likened?
To a man who loaned his comrade [chaber] a hundred (shekels)
and fixed the due date in the presence of the king
and (the borrower) swore by the king's life (that he'd pay).
The due date arrived and he had not repaid (the lender).
He went to appease the king, who said to him:
--"I forgive you the insult to me.
It is for you to appease your comrade!"
So, too, the latter (text) concerns man's offences towards God [ha Maqom]
the former concerns man's offences towards his comrade."
--- Babylonian Talmud, Rosh HaShanah 17b
And Jesus instructed that the Jews should obey even the Pharisees. Why?
Matt 23 1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.
Where did He get this teaching of "Moses Seat"?
From Rabbinic tradition.
And of course, Jesus also taught from Scripture.
Sincerely,
De Maria
So you've abandoned Scripture to make simple opinionated statements. I could say the same about you. You are set in your ways and never see past that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Which I've done. And I've asked Tom to back his up with Scripture as well.Quote:
And Toms has said several times that the teaching has to be backed up by scripture
I believe you are wrong there. But Tom can answer that question himself.Quote:
he never said that he believes scripture alone.
Good point. Many Sola Scripturists believe in the Trinity. Lutherans believe in Sola Scriptura and they also believe in the Trinity.Quote:
for example; I am sure he believes in the Trinity and other doctrines that are not named in the Bible but he finds the doctrine backed up by scripture therefore he is not sola scriptura as you claim.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Originally Posted by Tj3
A heresy which is taught in scripture. Hmmmm.
Where did Tom say sola scripture is taught in scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That quote suggests nothing like that!
HOW does it contradict scripture when it is scripture and the Bible also says you are to back it up with scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Of course because it IS scripture!Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Message #173Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
An exchange between Arcura and TJ
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
N0help4u,
Tj is but one of many who believe in the heresy of scripture alone called Sola Scriptora.
Obviously, TJ believes Sola Scriptura is taught in Scripture but won't reveal where.Quote:
Response by TJ
A heresy which is taught in scripture. Hmmmm.
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not Scripture. It is a tradition of men which says that Scripture is the sole rule of faith. As I have demonstrated before with many Scripture quotes, Scripture says that the Church is also a rule of faith.Quote:
HOW does it contradict scripture when it is scripture
But not with Scripture ALONE. And that is the problem with Sola Scriptura. Scripture does not teach Scripture alone.Quote:
and the Bible also says you are to back it up with scripture?
Scripture teaches Scripture and Tradition as taught by the Church.
When you find the verse that says, "Scripture alone", let me know.
If you are talking about Moses' seat, it wasn't Scripture when Jesus spoke it. It was Rabbinic teaching.Quote:
Of course because it IS scripture!
If you mean that Sola Scriptura is Scripture, then you have contradicted yourself because you say you don't believe in Scripture alone and yet claim to believe in Scripture. Whereas Scripture does not teach the doctrine of Scripture alone.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Tj is but one of many who believe in the heresy of scripture alone called Sola Scriptora.
Obviously, TJ believes Sola Scriptura is taught in Scripture but won't reveal where.
I think I would understand it better if he explained to me how he believes sola scriptora because I haven't seen him believing in no doctrinal beliefs whatsoever.
Hm?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Doesn't he believe the Bible? The Bible contains the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Everyone who believes the Bible believes doctrines:
Matthew 7 28 And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine.
But, you are correct. I can't tell you what Tom believes. Only he can clear that up for you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
What makes you say Him? Doesn't he believe the Bible?
I said Tom believes doctrines meaning Trinity and things that Churches believe even though the word trinity is not in the Bible. So evidently he must believe some church doctrines even though they are not stated in the Bible as such.
Oh. Sorry, I was confused when you said:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Sincerely,Quote:
because I haven't seen him believing in no doctrinal beliefs whatsoever.
De Maria
I told you previously - it is the belief that scripture is the sole standard for doctrine. If a doctrine or a teaching disagrees with the Bible, then it is wrong. All teaches are to be tested against the Biblical standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Right - except for the fact that sola scriptura does not mean "scripture alone" as defined by Roman Catholics. This is a strawman put up by the catholic church to oppose sola scriptura. I have no problem with accepting other documents, writings etc, as long as they can be shown to be in alignment with scripture. Indeed, documents which go outside of scripture but do not contradict oppose or contradict Biblical doctrine can be accepted as speculation but not doctrinal.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Sigh - have you been reading my posts?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Answer me this - what did Jesus use to validate sound doctrine? Was Jesus wrong? Should He have submitted Himself to the teachings of the religious leaders?Quote:
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not Scripture.
# Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
# In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
# "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
# Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
# For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Why God wants use to back doctrine with scripture rather than scripture to a doctrine
Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits...
2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.
Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.
Again and again we need to hear the Word. Man continues to fail even today. No perfect church or man walks upon this earth. Moses was not perfect, and was not permitted to see the promise land because of his deed done improperly in stricking the rock. Thus in that time frame penalty was paid. David several times failed and each time was to reap from what he did that was wrong. Again that time frame being of the old covenant he paid for the mistakes. Each time praying for forgiveness and mercy.. One change came to us all in the New Covemant in Jesus. Thus today we follow the light = law which followed is done in faith in Christ.
To man or church my opinion is don't be prideful of oneself but respect and love those that teach the Truth of Christ Jesus...
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning "star."
That's what I thought. Where is that in Scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
We believe that as well. Who decides whether a teaching disagrees with the Bible?Quote:
If a doctrine or a teaching disagrees with the Bible, then it is wrong.
Where does Scripture say that?Quote:
All teaches are to be tested against the Biblical standard.
We believe that also. We simply don't believe that the Bible is the sole standard. We believe all teachings are to be tested against the Word of God which is held in Scripture and as well as in Tradition. And we believe this judgement is to be made by the Church which is called the Pillar of Truth in Scripture.
Let us compare and see whose belief is found in Scripture and whose belief contradicts Scripture.
Sincerely,
De Maria
We can quit speculating. In message #194, TJ admits he believes in Scripture alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Sincerely,
De Maria
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