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You are quite right. Jesus did not pray to Himself. And you are quite right.. there is only ONE God. But Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
Let not, however, limit God and what is possible with and through Him to our simple ability to understand how it is done. The Bible said it, I believe it. There is no other assigned authority on the subject, period.
Yes, but the claim of "revelation" is still by one man as compared to the thousands of witnesses & similar revelations of the same Spirit in the Gospels & in the entire Holy Bible.
Now, in the end-times do you agree that Islam believes that Jesus' purpose in returning is to fight for Islam-"Kill all the pigs and break all the crosses, to confirm that Islam is the only true religion?"
I don't believe that. In the Tribulation- there are 2 big wars against Israel. The king of the North (experts name it Russia), & the king of the South (represented by the Arab states) is the 1st battle. They come up against Israel.(This is Ezekiel's war, Ezekiel 38-39) All but 1/6 will be killed(divine intervention) on the hills of Israel. Then there will be no power to contest the Antichrist's right to world authority.
The Antichrist (king of the west & false messiah to Israel) will emerge center stage & form 1 world government & 1 world religion. For a brief time, he will be a one-world dictator.
That will leave the king of the East(China) That is where Armegeddon comes in because the Antichrist & the king of the East will do battle for world domination. The military will cover all 200 miles north to south in Israel. At which time Christ comes as conqueror. Israel is to have a spiritual awakening in the end-time.
Note, that the Church, or all Christian believers will be raptured before the great Tribulation. In 1Thessolonians 4:13-18, the apostle Paul descrbes the rapture when the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. According to some theologians, 3/12 years after this takes place, the Antichrist, who will be head of the European Union, is going to be given power "over every tribe, tongue, and nation"(Rev.13:7).
All the more reason to find salvation through Jesus Christ the Lord now.
We already know about the weapons the Soviets have been selling to Iran. Much prophecy is being revealed in one generation- that it is raising Biblical eyebrows lately.
[QUOTE=mrs.pennell] According to the scholars, Jesus would not have called himself God or the Son of God. For more information on this and the historical Jesus you can go to this website:
The Jesus Seminar
Or Google THE JESUS SEMINAR. The Jesus Seminar is the group of scholars that did the research to ascertain what could be attributed to Jesus and what is likely not his words. They believe that only 20% of Jesus' sayings in the Gospel are actually his words.
QUOTE]
Are you seriously quoting scholars? My gosh, a scholar is merely a man. Jesus was right under their noses and they didn't recognize him, and he rebuked them for it.
Here's the key factor for the Naysayers:... You made an educated and informed decision. You had a greater opportunity to make a choice than many others did. This will be no one's fault but your own.
Where in the Bible does it say that the Rapture will take place BEFORE the Trib? I personally believe that to be true... but my question to you is WHERE does the BIBLE say it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
I'm no scholar, but as a fellow believer, I would suggest that we not get into misleading people by mixing Scripture w/ personal opinions. I don't think the Bible specifically states your timeline. Am I wrong?
No, I know about the pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib debates that are out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadire
I 've read a couple of books on the end-times. It is not my opinion that the Church must be removed from God's wrath in the Great Tribulation. These who interpret Biblical prophesy have stated that the Gentile church is removed so that- Israel's blindness to the Messiah will end when" the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."
See Luke 21:36. See Revelation 3:7-13- To the Church in Philadelphia (called the faithful church)
PHILADELPHIA: 7 CHURCHs of REVELATION
Jesus said... Before Abraham... I AM. I AM is God! Yes he said he was God AND the Jews knew EXACTLY what he said because they picked up rocks to stone him for it. He also let Thomas bow and worship him... Thomas said... my savior and my God!
Correction... Thomas said my Lord and my God. Sorry, I know this is an old post but it was interesting...
Tessy777
Thanks.
You are right.
Peace ans kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Jeus is God! Some questions for people to considerQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Isaiah 7:14; St. Mathew 1:23 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is Immanuel?
Genesis 1:1; Colossians 1:14-17 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, who created the heavens, and earth? Jesus or God?
Genesis 49:10; Hebrews 7:14 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, when will our Lord spring out of the Tribe of Juda?
I Kings 22:19; Revelations 4:2 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, how many is setting on the throne? Psalms 45:6; Philippians 2:11.
Numbers 24:16-17- If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, when will Balaam's prophecy come to pass?
Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:11 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who shall we bow to? Jesus or God?
Isaiah 45:15-21; Titus 2:13 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is our savior?
Isaiah 9:6 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then when will Isaiah's prophecy come to pass?
If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, why when the Devil was tempting Jesus, "Jesus said unto him, 'Thou Shalt not tempt the Lord Thy God'"? St. Matthew 4:7.
If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, when will the Lord God of Israel visit his people to redeem them? St. Luke 1:68.
If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, why did Steven call God by his name and said, "Lord Jesus"? Acts 7:59.
If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is the True God? I John 5:20.
Deuteronomy 32:4; I Corinthians 10:4 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then who is The Rock? God or Christ?
If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, then Thomas must told a lie in St. John 20:28, when he said to Jesus, "My Lord and My God". Did Thomas lie?
I Timothy 3:16 - If Jesus Christ is not God, when did God come in the flesh?
I John 3:16 - If Jesus Christ is not God, when did God lay down his life? St. John 3:16; I Peter 3:18.
St. John 14:9 - If Jesus Christ is not God Almighty, why did He say to Philip, "When you see me, you see The Father", and there is only one Father? Malachi 2:10.
Did God tell a lie when he told Saul that He is Jesus in, Acts 9:5.
If Jesus Christ is not God, then we must say the He's not Good. St. Mark 10:18; St. John 10:14.
Psalms 90:2; Revelations 1:18 - If Jesus Christ is not God, then who is He that liveth, and was dead; and is alive evermore (everlasting)?
Why we are on the topic? How does one become saved? Do you believe it is just by faith or does that faith require works with the water baptism and infilling of the holy ghost? What say you?
Fred, read this article, excerpted below. It's probably not what you would have expected.
Yes, Jesus claimed to be God.Quote:
Background: Whence the "Son of Man"?
Most commentators start they journey on the SOM with Daniel 7. Sometimes they look into the ANE to find comparable pagan divine figures. But somehow and some way, if we are to believe an entirely neutral source, they have missed the most relevant key of all.
It was as a result of my research on Zoroaster that I found the programmatic data, which comes from Ernest Herzfeld's Zoroaster and His World [835-840]. Herzfeld notes the uses of phrases containing "son of..." in the ancient world and what purpose they served. The phrase as used in Daniel is bar enash. (Note for certain skeptics: This is an important distinction from other uses of the phrase in the OT, which generally use 'adam for man).
What is the significance of this difference? The combination bar enash and its parallels in Old Babylonian carry the meaning of an heir or successor to royalty, or of a free man of the highest class. A "man" here is not just any man, but as we might say, "THE MAN" as in royalty. Herzfeld notes an example of this usage in the Code of Hammurabi.
Daniel was written at a time when this phrase had a specific and known meaning. In the context of Daniel 7:13, in which the one "like a son of man" comes to the Ancient of Days (Almighty God) and is given dominion of the sort that God possesses, the significance of Jesus' "son of man" usage cannot be overstated. It is functionally equivalent to saying that the one like a son of man is rightful heir and successor to the divine throne. "Son of man" is essentially the same as "Son of God" in this context.
It is therefore clear that if Jesus is using the phrase consistent with its original meaning, it is a powerful and clear claim to deity. But before we take that further, let's look at some Jewish parallels that might substantiate the case.
From the Jewish apocryphal Book of 1 Enoch, in a section referred to as the Similitudes (Chapters 37-71), we find a description of the Son of Man as one who was given that name before time itself; one who would become a light to the Gentiles, will be worshipped throughout the earth; and will "dethrone kings and crush the teeth of sinners." [Chars.JesJud, 40, 48] In 1 Enoch 48 specifically, the terms "Son of Man," "Messiah," and "Elect One" are used interchangeably, indicating that in the mind of that author, they meant the same thing [With.JQ, 214]. The Similitudes may be later than Jesus; but they would serve to demonstrate the existence of a personal concept of the "Son of Man" at the time of Jesus or shortly thereafter, albeit not in a titular form. However, the matter is complicated by the fact that this part of 1 Enoch is only available in a late, Ethiopic translation. This material cannot be used decisively for any argument.
Relevant also is material from the book of 4 Ezra, written late in the first century. Here there are also obvious allusions to the character of Daniel 7 as a Messiah - although the words "son of man" are not used [Todt.SOM, 24; Hare.SOM; Case.SOM, 124].
Later interpretations, by rabbis and Christian commentators, of Daniel 7 are relevant, but varied [see Case.SOM]. Some saw the figure as corporate Israel; some saw it as Messianic. Little suggests that SOM was considered a title.
A considerable factor in Jesus' words is his comment that the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of God. This is far more significant than our phrase, "right-hand man" would suggest. In a study of the matter in Blashpemy and Exaltation in Judaism [203ff], Darrell Bock discusses parallels in Jewish texts and offers these conclusions:
- In the literature of Judiasm of the period, "a proximate seating next to God" i.e., in His presence) "might be considered for a privileged few, either a few universally acknowledged greats" (Moses, Adam, etc.) "of the past or the future eschatological figure of judgment" (the Son of Man of Daniel 7). But such honor "would never be comtemplated by the leadership for a humble, rural Galilean, preacher like Jesus." Being seated in God's presence (like being seated during the National Anthem) by itself was audacious, though not necessarily a claim to divinity, until we add:
- The right hand reference, which means in this culture that Jesus is claiming to be seated by God "in a way that shares the highest honor with him." In other texts, the "right hand of God" is the place where the splendor and majeesty of God comes from (Testament of Job), and the righteous are honored by being allowed to stand (not sit!) at the right hand of God.
In short, Jesus thereby claims the prerogatives of God with the combination honor of being seated at the right hand of God, and therefore asserts his divine identity.
As an added note for fans of eschatology, it is a good idea to check passages in the NT which refer to Jesus at God's right hand. By our eschatological view, Jesus' "seating" corresponded with events of 70 AD (see more here). In this light it is noteworthy that Jesus in Acts 7 is still standing at God's right hand (not yet seated). (Other passages [like Eph. 1:20 and Heb. 12:2] speak of Jesus being set at God's right hand, though whether seated, or standing in place, is not specified.)
Jesus never said He was God:
"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Jeff :)
Heck... there's really no need to reply. You pretty much covered it. God is triune in nature, that is, He is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Jesus Christ was 100% man and 100% God.
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12Quote:
Originally Posted by jayb09
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say 'Thou has faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.' Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith, without works is dead?" James 2:17-20
"Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Timothy 2:15
I believe that much is required of a Christian. Some church leaders may say that all one has to do is believe and that's it. Beware! If that was all that was required then we wouldn't have a thick Bible full of God's Word. All we would need is that single page that says "believe."
[QUOTE=Jeff Logan]Jesus never said He was God:
QUOTE]
John 8:58, (Speaking to the Pharisees) "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'"
If Christ were a mere mortal, He could not have existed before Abraham who lived hundreds of years before Him. Therefore, Christ is the great I AM Who is God Almighty.
Oh boy, got to disagree with you about the faith plus works thing equaling salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson
Faith plus nothing equal salvation.
Martin Luther
The question is asked: how can justification take place without the works of the law, even though James says: “Faith without works is dead”?
In answer, the apostle distinguishes between the law and faith, the letter and grace. The ‘works of the law’ are works done without faith and grace, by the law, which forces them to be done through fear or the enticing promise of temporal advantages. But ‘works of faith’ are those done in the spirit of liberty, purely out of love to God. And they can be done only by those who are justified by faith. An ape can cleverly imitate the actions of humans. But he is not therefore a human. If he became a human, it would undoubtedly be not by virtue of the works by which he imitated man but by virtue of something else; namely, by an act of God. Then, having been made a human, he would perform the works of humans in proper fashion. Paul does not say that faith is without its characteristic works, but that it justifies without the works of the law. Therefore justification does not require the works of
The law; but it does require a living faith, which performs its works. - Martin Luther
Ephesians 2: 8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yoursevelves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Read the next sentence in Phillipians 2:12-13 There, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence- continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
John 3:16
Matthew 11:28-30 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your soul. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
I agree with getting baptised. But again not a requirement for salvation. Jesus commanded us to be baptised( at some point though )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
Wait a sec. I didn't say it, I quoted the Apostle James right out of the Bible. Since he was inspired by the Holy Ghost to write those words in the book that all Christians accept as God's Word, then you will have to get after him... not me. Apparently, he believed that if we had faith and sat on our behinds, then our faith was dead. I believe that Martin Luther was a great man and I have many of his writings in my library. However, considering the fact that James walked with Christ and learned directly from the greatest Teacher of scriptural matters, I can't help but lean more towards the teachings of James than the teachings of Martin. That's not to say that I believe that works alone will do anything for a person's salvation. It MUST be accompanied by Faith.
What do you think Paul meant when he told us to "work out our own salvation?
You are making salvation sound hard. This is not what I believe. This is why some young Christian boys are nervous wrecks- because they think they can't be good or do good enough or be holy enough in the Lord's eyes.
What do you think Paul was saying in Ephesians? Not by works, that none should boast.
And John 3:16? Same message. And the same message I follow from 4-5 different pastors.
Work out with fear- don't forget the word" fear" there. We are supposed to have a fear of the Lord (or reverence) always.
What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn't need works to be granted salvation.
Equipped for good works--- after salvation.
I know it's 1 word- but the placement of it must be correct (what Jesus, John, Paul spoke) Otherwise, these kids are" killing themselves" to be accepted into heaven.
But you may be right. It could be because of James' writings.
I think we're probably closer in our belief than our words portray. I agree that if a person comes to Jesus Christ for the first time, accepts Him as Lord and Saviour, etc. that he or she receives salvation. However, I believe that Christianity is a growing process. In other words, that brand new Christian shouldn't pastor a church the day after he becomes a Christian. He will need to do a lot more seeking and searching and become more prepared before he can lead an entire congregation. There is also a Scripture that says that those who return to their old ways are like dogs returning to their vomit. That indicates that at some point, a person's faith died and they returned to an old habit or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
Also, faith and salvation aren't not really synonyms. James said that "faith" without works is dead but not necessarily "salvation" would die along with it. I've known good Christians who were going through very trying times who felt like giving up. Their faith was weak and wavering but they were still Christians bound for God's Kingdom. I think what James was saying was that the strength of our faithfulness was dependent on how we exercised the living, Christian principles in our lives.
You bring fitnah to Christians. It is a commonplace action by unbelievers and we are used to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
Peace be upon you.
M:)RGANITE
Jesus Christ was 100% God and 100% man. He told those that He taught to "pray thusly." He was showing by example how to pray to the Father. He, in His manhood, was praying to the Godhead. As H2O comes in three forms i.e. liquid, ice, and steam, so does the Godhead in His fullness, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (three offices, one God). As it is said in the first chapter of Genesis: let "Us" create man in "Our" image. And so He did. A man is a single entity but he comprises body, soul, and spirit... all three units make the single man.Quote:
Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
This is a really good conversation but I have to agree with ActionJackson
If salvation is just accepting the Lord in your heart? Why does the scripture talk of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost?
Jesus Christ said to Nicodemus: "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born again, He cannot see the kingdom of God", St. John 3:3. I think a lot of people think born again is just accepting him in your heart but there is more of a requirement.
Jesus elaborates some more when in St John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the kingdom of God".
Jesus said in St. Matthew 28:19, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost". By the way, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus!
Acts 2:38."Repent and be Baptized every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
St. Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; But he that believeth not shall be damned". This is a plain clear message yet people still go in their own way
Ephesians 4:5, "One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism".
I Peter 3:21, "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us".
I guess it boils down to if people believe in what a man tells them or what Jesus and the apostles told us Salvation requires. I ‘ll stick with Jesus!
Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments
It is also written "They profess that they know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate",
jayb09,
The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens when you convert or accept Jesus.
It is good that one recognizes the command to be baptized. It shows maturity.
People who are born again, plain and simple, will be going to Heaven. There are not two classes of Christians. You either are or are not saved.John 3:3, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the
kingdom of God."
Baptism is an outward display of an inner conviction(something already there) to identify with Christ - His death and resurrection for us personally.
Belief in Jesus is our salvation-not our righteous acts.
And your question was about salvation-not faith- as the others alluded to.
Yes, faith is not a destination. The destination is the joy.
Faith and joy He works in us throughout.
And I agree. Faith is #1 an action. Not just words.
[QUOTE=jayb09] If salvation is just accepting the Lord in your heart? Why does the scripture talk of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost?
St John 3:5, "Verily, verily, I say unto Thee, Except a man be Born of Water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the kingdom of God".
Acts 2:38."Repent and be Baptized every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of Sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".
St. Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; But he that believeth not shall be damned".
I Peter 3:21, "The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us".
Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments [QUOTE]
So, according to Jesus in John 3:5, being born of the Water and the Spirit (interesting that "water" comes before "spirit") is necessary prior to entering into the Kingdom.
Then, if we look at the wording of Acts 2:38 in a chronological way, we are to 1) Repent, 2) Be Baptized in Jesus' name 3) then receive the Holy Ghost. Interesting. So, we won't receive the Holy Ghost unless we have first been baptized and we shouldn't be baptized if we haven't first repented of our sins. Wow... you learn something new everyday. All the years I've read the Bible and have read that verse it never struck me like it just did.
Thanks for your post Jayb09. May Christ's hedge of protection surround you, your family, and your community.
Matthew 3:11-12 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, who sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Act 2:1-4- When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Oh, it's fire! And you are Baptized in the Holy Spirit when you received Jesus.
The practice of being baptized with water did not stop after this verse. Therefore, the baptism with the Holy Ghost and with fire is an addition to the water baptism because we know that Jesus, Himself, continued the practice. The "fire" baptism spoken of in Matthew 3:12 where the "chaff" are burned correlates with the end time cleansing of the world as spoken of in the parable of the wheat and the tares. Read Matthew 13:38-42Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
At the point in time in which the events of Acts 2:1-4 took place, there were eleven Apostles present. Judas was dead and Paul had not been converted yet. Standing before the eleven Apostles were men from many lands who spoke many different languages. In order for the Apostles to preach the Good News to all of them simultaneously the Holy Ghost gave them the power to speak in a manner that everyone present could understand the Apostles' speech in his own native tongue. This is the point that the Apostles spoke in tongues in the true sense. (There are some who "speak in tongues" today and nobody can understand a word they say). I agree that this could be seen as a baptism of the Holy Ghost but it specifically affected the Apostles who had already been baptized in water by Jesus Christ.
AJ,
I will let someone who has the time explain this to you. This is "our" position. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs. I see where there are differences concerning denominations & doctrines.
Baptism Not a Requirement for Salvation
I can certainly see the point you are trying to make. I also understand that under some historical circumstances that persons were saved that were unable to be baptized by full immersion baptism. The thief on the cross comes to mind. However, I don't believe that it should be taken too lightly. There are a number of Scriptures that point to the importance of baptism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
I wonder what Jesus would say to someone who had the opportunity to be baptized but didn't because he didn't think that it was important enough to go through with it. How many people won't be baptized because they were told that it wasn't necessary for salvation? If I told someone that it wasn't all that important and not necessary for salvation and that someone opted against being baptized based on my choice of words, would I be considered a stumbling block?
Well said AJ! You know when you stated about being the stumbling block because there so many preachers out there who do not know the truth but are telling people that if they just accept Christ in their heart and they will be saved, it reminds me of Lazarus in the rich man. We all know the story but let's look at these few versus in Luke Chapter 16. I am picking up where the rich man has the conversation with Abraham.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I quote all of those scriptures to say this. Once someone has been directed and given the word of truth they are held accountable. I think of the many times I have had conversations with people and how they were never convinced of the truth. But we all have to one day meet God. Those who have been told what the way of truth is, what can they say to God? It can't be Lord you never told me or I never knew because we have had this converstaion.
My second part is this. I can you Retotria and anyone else that God is real. Unless I had tasted of the goodness of the Lord and had not experienced the water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost I might be swayed with what man has told me but now I know too much and I know that God is real because he dwells and abides down on the inside. Glory to be God! God is the same day today yesterday and forever more! His word never changes!
I pray that the Lord open your understanding just as he did for me.
Peace Be
Just as we are having this conversation with Retrotia, she can never go before the Lord and say that she didn't know because we had this conversation.
Baptism, in a sense, is similar to the taking of communion in that we are not to take communion unworthily. Our heart is to be in the right place or we should not take communion. Similarly, we aren't to be baptized unless we have first repented of our sins. If we have not repented of our sins, we should not be baptized. Therefore, there is more to baptism than a simple act of obedience or an "outward" show of some sort. If we only do it to "show" the world that we are being obedient, then how are we any better than the Pharisees who loved to make an outward "show" of tithing? Jesus said something to the effect that having your cup clean on the outside means nothing if it is dirty on the inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayb09
When you read the scriptures you MUST first see who the scriptures were written to. They are for us all but they are WRITTEN to different people. In Acts... who was Peter talking to? The Jews. Yes, THEY needed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They needed to recognize WHO Christ was and be identified with HIM. He was just crucified, rejected and they were JEWS! That was huge to be baptized and to be identified with him. THIS is NOT the GOSPEL. The Apostle Paul gives the Gospel to the Church and it has NOTHING to to with baptisim. Period. For heaven sakes, Paul even mentions that he baptized certain families but couldn't remember if he did others. If baptism is required, once again, we would have to rely on another human being to do it for us. In other words, you can't just get saved with you and the Lord Jesus! His work would NOT be enough and it would require another human and another act other than his death on the cross. Another insult to my savior who finished the work. FINISHED THE WORK! This is an age old debate and I am certainly not going to change anyone's mind, I am sure. But I did feel the need to say that. By the way, this should probably be a new thread.
Well the verse does say that we should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (no other name) and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If, as you say, it is not necessary to be baptized and that being baptized is an insult to your saviour, then should we all get out our black markers and erase all the verses pointing towards baptism? Are there any other Scriptural instructions that you believe God included in His Word erroneously? Peter and the Apostles baptized many... were they insulting Jesus Christ by so doing? How about John the Baptist... was he an insult to your saviour?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessy777
Secondly, the men present in Acts chapter 2 were "men of Israel." They were Israelites. The word "Jew" is representative of one of the 12 tribes of Israel that being the tribe of Judah. All men of Judah are Israelites but not all Israelites are of the tribe of Judah. Paul identified himself as an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin... not Judah.
Since this is a thread concerning whether Christ is God or not I think the discussion is appropriate. Since we are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then by doing so, we clearly see Him as God.
God used and uses people to do His work. He used Moses to free his people from bondage. He used the Apostles to spread the good news of salvation. He used people to write down and compile his word in to a book for people to read and understand. So too, He uses people to baptize. To me this seems rather consistent, and does not negate the finished work of Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tessy777
I did not say that getting baptized wasn't important. I said you were mature for thinking it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jayb09
I said it wasn't a requirement for salvation. This is important to me because my husband and 2 daughters are saved-but not baptized (yet) So I hope you see why I like to get my facts straight.
About me, do not worry. I have been baptized, twice. But there was a year between being saved and baptism.
Now you see another's opinion also. So you can put more or less emphasis on what you choose.
God Loves You. Take care.
I can see the dilemma you are in. You do see the importance of baptism but since your family has not yet been baptized yet, you feel at least some concern. You concern, alone, shows that you understand the importance of baptism. I pray that you urge you husband to be baptized if he has a repentant spirit and loves Jesus Christ. I would also urge your daughters to do the same when they come of age. I wouldn't worry too much though, Jesus Christ is a loving God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
Hi Tessy777. On the "Rate this Answer" button, you hit "agree" but disagreed. That's okay... no big deal. I was just curious as to whether you believed that the Bible is the Word of God. Also, do you believe that Jesus Christ God?
You are right, we probably agree on more than we disagree on but one thing that we are both doing (hopfully) is seeking the truth. I want to know what God expects of His children.
I had asked a question in my earlier post. Since you believe that baptism is totally unnecessary, should we black out those verses concerning that topic?
Action,
You misunderstood me. I do believe baptism is important. I believe anyone who professes Christ SHOULD be baptised. However, it is not a requirement for salvation. I have friends who believe it is... thats OK. I don't like to fight and argue of the WORD! It is too important and I have found that I haven't changed anyone's mind. I pray the Holy Spirit will do that for me or for them... whoever may be in error. Is Jesus GOD? He most certainly is... he is the Great I AM! How awesome is that... anyway?
No, we don't black out any verses. We put them in context, we understand who they are written to, when they were written and why they were written. It is about learning to understand how to read the Bible properly. Should we black out this verse? What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and THOU SHALT BE SAVED and they house. IF I read that correctly, it doesn't mention baptism AND all the times the apostle Paul gives the gospel, never ever does he say baptism is a requirement. It just isn't there.
One last thing Action, Jesus Christ is a loving GOD but he doesn't change his mind! IF baptism is a requirement for salvation (and it isn't) you should be advising people to be VERY CONCERNED if they haven't been baptized because if they did die... Jesus wouldn't be enough. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You say it is "IMPORTANT" that is an understatement. According to YOUR belief the man isn't saved... it is a TAD more than just important. You should have her fast, pray, and fast some more for him to see the "light". By the way, your belief is poppycock. My JESUS paid the price in full, my responisbility? I can accept him as paying my debt in full or reject it... he doesn't need my help in anyway shape or form... for salvation. He needs my faith, not my help.
As far as baptism goes, if you are in Christ you are OUT of the will of God if you aren't baptized. It is disobedience to the Lord... it has NOTHING to do with salvation!
One REALLY last thing Action,
Do you understand that when Peter preached to the Jews to repent and be bapitzed for the remission of sins, that he had NO CLUE what GRACE was. He had NO CLUE of the "CHURCH". He was still looking for the KINGDOM... (Jesus to come back and set up the kingdom where he would rule and reign?) He was talking to JEWS! Why is that such a difficult concept?? Oh Jesus talked about being "born again" but just like Nicodemous, he didn't have a clue. He didn't even KNOW WHAT a CHRISTIAN was. He was a JEW... he was STILL keeping the LAW! He didn't know that Gentiles were going to be offered salvation, he didn't have a clue. Go back and read it, what had been revealed to him up to that point!? Who was he talking to? You really have to understand this or you make the Bible a real mess to figure out! Go to Chapter 3, the first verse... he is going to TEMPLE! (fyi... the "church doesn't go to temple!) Jesus hadn't revealed everything to the 12.yet... it was a BRAND NEW thing that Jesus was doing... get out of ACTS... keep going. It does get EVEN better. READ Romans.. it is the book right after ACTS. Salvation is now being offered to the GENTILES! Here is a thought READ ALL OF THE BOOKS that the Apostle Paul wrote to the "church doesnt go to temple!) Jesus hadn't revealed everything to the 12.yet...it was a BRAND NEW thing that Jesus was doing...get out of ACTS ....keep going. It does get EVEN better. READ Romans..it is the book right after ACTS. Salvation is now being offered to the GENTILES! Here is a thought READ ALL OF THE BOOKS that the Apostle Paul wrote to the "... then come talk to me about baptism as a requirement for salvation.!
Do you understand that the GOSPELS don't even have the Gospel in them? They are books about the life of Jesus, his death, his burial, his resurrection... but how to be saved? Not there. Did you know that you are completely in error talking about John the Baptist? Did JOHN the BAPTIST understand the GOSPEL of CHRIST in the four Gospels... uhhhh NO! REPENT and Be Baptized for the... what was it.. oh yeah... KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND! Hello!! Nothing there about salvation.
Odd name for someone who has the understanding and insight that you do. I agree with your post but I hope I don't fall in the crosshairs of your namesake.Quote:
Originally Posted by fkyouall
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