You can't even quote yourself accurately. This is what you said. "I gave you the best answers you will ever get." It is in post 74. You restate it in 80. "I gave you the best rational answer you will ever get." Good grief.

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All those millions who have read and studied the Gospels (and the Bible) came from a point of view of accepting the Gospels in advance. In other words, they brought a bias in favor of what was already presented in the Gospels. That can't be denied.

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My my. How widespread your knowledge is that you know what MILLIONS of people have done. Could your conclusion also apply to you?

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The modern readings include many questions including the clearly absurd notion of a hell as described as infinite torture.

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Oh? Where?

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The Golden Rule. Love your neighbor.

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Oh yes. The parts of the Bible that you accept since they agree with your ideas.

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Yes. You always return to the beginning. You have no option but to do that. Repeating the same questions shows that you need answers again and again. The answers are starting to sink in and make you think. Little by little, when our beliefs (yours and mine) are challenged by the truth (ours), the truth has a way of nibbling away at the shell of untruth.

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Some well thought out answers would be good to see for sure. But at least you have now agreed that the concept of hell is found in the Bible.

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This last I explained to you previously in my observation of the Creator and his creation which you have notably failed to answer.

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Failed to answer? I certainly did when I pointed out that your inability to understand God is not a compelling argument.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You can't even quote yourself accurately. This is what you said. "I gave you the best answers you will ever get." It is in post 74. You restate it in 80. "I gave you the best rational answer you will ever get."

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It's still the best answer you ever got.

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How widespread your knowledge is that you know what MILLIONS of people have done.

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YOU are the one who mentioned MILLIONS. Did you forget already?

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Oh? Where?

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Google it.

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Oh yes. The parts of the Bible that you accept since they agree with your ideas.

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What's wrong with that?

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Some well thought out answers would be good to see for sure.

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How about starting with talking snakes?

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But at least you have now agreed that the concept of hell is found in the Bible.

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I have never denied the concept of hell is in the Bible. I even traced it from the OT through the Persians to the NT. Forgot that, too?

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Failed to answer? I certainly did when I pointed out that your inability to understand God is not a compelling argument.

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Yes, failed to answer. Tell me specifically where my inability to understand God is. (I can't wait for this one).

This is just more of your non answers. You are the promoter of talking snakes and you dare to tell others about the Bible and God. The irony is delicious.

I really wish you would stop bothering me and others here unless you change your attitude and discuss issues like an adult, not like a whiny schoolboy.

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It's still the best answer you ever got.

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I would agree, which makes me glad I don't have to defend your position. Your "best" answers are completely filled with holes.

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YOU are the one who mentioned MILLIONS. Did you forget already?

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And YOU are the one who claimed you know what their motives were which was absurd.

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Google it.

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Your usual answer when you have no clue.

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Some well thought out answers would be good to see for sure.

How about starting with talking snakes?

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That's a well reasoned answer to you? Oh well.

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Yes, failed to answer. Tell me specifically where my inability to understand God is. (I can't wait for this one).

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Your inability to understand the connection between God's love for sinners and hell.

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This is just more of your non answers. You are the promoter of talking snakes and you dare to tell others about the Bible and God. The irony is delicious.

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I have never promoted talking snakes.

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I really wish you would stop bothering me and others here unless you change your attitude and discuss issues like an adult, not like a whiny schoolboy.

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Again, the response of a person with absolutely, positively, no answers, so you're reduced to referring to attitudes and issues. But if you can't handle it, then go somewhere else. I hope you don't, but it's your option. If you decide to continue, just be aware that no one pays any attention to your incessant complaining.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would agree, which makes me glad I don't have to defend your position. Your "best" answers are completely filled with holes.

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Specifics, please. Put up or shut up.

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And YOU are the one who claimed you know what their motives were which was absurd.

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(Why am I doing this?) Their motives couldn't be more obvious. Are you now saying they are not believers to begin with? Get real.

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That's a well reasoned answer to you? Oh well.

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Talking snakes? Dear Lord!

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Your inability to understand the connection between God's love for sinners and hell.

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THANK YOU, JAYZUZ. We have a discussion!!!!!!!! Please enlighten us just how God's love for sinners and hell is connected. (I can't wait).

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I have never promoted talking snakes.

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Are you now denying you believe in talking snakes? Or is this just another word game for you.

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Again, the response of a person with absolutely, positively, no answers,

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I've given you more answers than you can shake a stick at. OBVIOUSLY.

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But if you can't handle it, then go somewhere else. I hope you don't, but it's your option. If you decide t r option. If you decide to continue, just be aware that no one pays any attention to your incessant complaining.

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Ah, to quote you, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. When you offer my words as your own, don't make it so obvious. It makes you look foolish. Should I remind about your plagariasm accusations?

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Specifics, please. Put up or shut up.

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I have done so twice already. Keep up! Post 69 was the SECOND time, while post 28 was the FIRST time.

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(Why am I doing this?) Their motives couldn't be more obvious. Are you now saying they are not believers to begin with? Get real.

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Yeah. You know the motives of millions of people you have never met. It's just unbelievable that you honestly believe such foolishness.

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THANK YOU, JAYZUZ. We have a discussion!!!!!!!! Please enlighten us just how God's love for sinners and hell is connected. (I can't wait).

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Google it. (Just had to do that. For once I have copied you and your mentoree, WG.) But you really don't have to do that. I've already answered that as well more than once. If you will read John 3:16 even semi-carefully, you will find your answer. It's where the judgment of God and the love of God meet.

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Are you now denying you believe in talking snakes? Or is this just another word game for you.

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Of course I deny it which is exactly what I have consistently said. Never said otherwise.

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I've given you more answers than you can shake a stick at. OBVIOUSLY.

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Not true. I've shaken a stick at ALL of your answers. They plainly deserve it. In fact they deserve to have sticks thrown at them, as my summary, posted twice now, shows clearly.

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Ah, to quote you, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. When you offer my words as your own, don't make it so obvious. It makes you look foolish. Should I remind about your plagariasm accusations?

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Would make sense if it was true. Sadly for you, it's not.

Jl says my best answers are "filled with holes". I ask him for specifics but he can't give specifics, saying he's already done so. So much for that one.

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Yeah. You know the motives of millions of people you have never met. It's just unbelievable that you honestly believe such foolishness.

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When I reply that "millions" of people defend the Gospels because they are believers, JL says it's "unbelievable that I honestly believe such foolishness". I'm still shaking my head over this one. Does Jl think the millions reading the Gospels are NOT Christian believers? Note how his answers lack "answer-ship" quality. He insults rather than actually answers.

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If you will read John 3:16 even semi-carefully, you will find your answer. It's where the judgment of God and the love of God meet.

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THANK YOU, JL. Finally, a specific.

Ok, here's John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Reading carefully, I'm looking for the part where Jl says the love of God for sinners and hell is connected. Hmm, this is the New International Version. Maybe it's in the KJV. Nope, not there either.

It talks about God, love, the world, his son, belief in his Son, and that the believers shall not perish but have eternal life. So far, not a word about how the love of God for sinners and hell is connected. No mention of sinners. No mention of hell.

It seems to imply that believers shall not perish, so therefore non-believers SHALL perish? That would seem to mean that a little old lady in China in a rice paddy planting rice seedlings who never heard of his Son and therefore couldn't believe in someone she never heard of, WILL perish. That doesn't seem right - especially when that little old lady is multiplied by the BILLIONS who also never heard of his Son will also perish. Reading the whole chapter does not shed any light on why those who never heard of the Son and so cannot believe should perish.

When an assertion is made that the word "perish" means to be a sinner and spend eternity in torture in hell, certainly nothing remotely implying such a thing is expressed or implied. Perish means to die, to end, to stop life. One doesn't have to be a sinner to perish - everybody dies. And there's certainly not a single word about hell or punishment. Finally, no connection is drawn about how the love of God for sinners and hell is connected. None whatsoever. Maybe it's all a figure of speech.

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Not true. I've shaken a stick at ALL of your answers. They plainly deserve it.

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More non-answers. When you are ready to have a discussion, send up a flare. You DID initiate a discussion with John 3:16, but even tho' that didn't pan out as you had hoped, still it was a good start.

If you can tell us how the love of God for sinners and hell is connected, we would be most grateful. It doesn't have to be John 3:16. Your own words are fine. If you can't, no problem, we understand.

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Jl says my best answers are "filled with holes". I ask him for specifics but he can't give specifics, saying he's already done so. So much for that one.

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Fourth time? Fifth time? Sixth time? How many times must it be said? " Keep up! Post 69 was the SECOND time, while post 28 was the FIRST time."

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When I reply that "millions" of people defend the Gospels because they are believers,

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For the second time on this page alone, you have managed to misquote yourself. This was your comment. "In other words, they brought a bias in favor of what was already presented in the Gospels." So they believed the Gospels, and then afterwards accepted the Gospels as true because of a bias? What??? Perhaps they actually accepted the Gospels as true because of their reading and study. You should try it.

So you have brought in no bias? Of course you have. It's how you have managed to concoct the "genuine attitudes" of Jesus.

John 3:16 presents man as perishing. The love of God brings forth a plan of rescue. How? He sent His only begotten Son, so that whoever places his/her faith in Christ will not perish. Perfect.

Perish means physical death? Don't be ridiculous. You have Jesus saying that anyone who believes in Him will not physically die. It's an absurd mistake on your part. And the fact that perishing is contrasted with "eternal life" clearly shows it does not mean physical death.

As to the little old lady in China, your friend Aquinas answers it quite well. "The answer to the first argument is that nothing inappropriate follows from acceptance of the fact that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, even someone reared in the woods or among brute animals; for it belongs to Divine Providence to provide everyone with what is necessary for his salvation, provided that he on his part place no obstruction in the way. For if anyone thus bought up were to follow the guidance of natural reason in seeking good and shunning evil, it must be held most certainly that God would reveal to him even by an internal inspiration those things which are necessary to be believed, or would direct some preacher of the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10)."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

you have managed to misquote yourself.

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So we're back to misquotes. What's next? Misspellings again? Punctuation? Jl, I know you have a hard time sticking to the issue with all your tangents, but this is ridiculous.

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John 3:16 presents man as perishing. The love of God brings forth a plan of rescue. How? He sent His only begotten Son, so that whoever places his/her faith in Christ will not perish.

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How in the world does this prove your contention that the love of God for sinners and hell is connected? I'm sorry to say you are spinning in a world of your own. It's actually getting embarrassing for members here.

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Perish means physical death? Don't be ridiculous.

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Yes, Jl, perish means physical death. No, Jl, it's not ridiculous. If you weren't averse to googling, you would find the meaning of perish in every dictionary on the planet. It means to die, to end life, PHYSICAL DEATH !

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You have Jesus saying that anyone who believes in Him will not physically die.

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I said nothing like that. Did you mean John said that? Whoever said it or didn't say it, what does it have to do with the love of God for sinners and hell is a connection?

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It's an absurd mistake on your part.

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Now I'M the absurd one here???? Jl, this whole post is showing you to be a , well..... _____________others can fill in the blank.

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And the fact that perishing is contrasted with "eternal life" clearly shows it does not mean physical death.

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Believe whatever nonsense you want, but we are still waiting for your "...the love of God for sinners and hell is a connection".

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As to the little old lady in China, your friend Aquinas answers it quite well.

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That doesn't fit your requirement for it to be in the Bible. Anyway, how is this a proof of the love of God for sinners and hell is connected. We're still waiting for you to explain that. But no explanation has yet been offered.

I can only surmise from your words that you believe God loves hell. Or, to put it another way, God delights in seeing the human beings he lovingly created being tortured for every second in the most painful possible manner for ALL ETERNITY.

This is the God of PERFECT SADISM. And you worship this God !!

Tell me, JL. Did you pick the wings off flies when you were a little child?

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Yes, Jl, perish means physical death. No, Jl, it's not ridiculous. If you weren't averse to googling, you would find the meaning of perish in every dictionary on the planet. It means to die, to end life, PHYSICAL DEATH !

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So you want to stick with your understanding that faith in Christ prevents physical death? Well...OK, but the passage plainly does not support such an interpretation.

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Believe whatever nonsense you want, but we are still waiting for your "...the love of God for sinners and hell is a connection".

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Sinners are heading for judgment, but the love of God sent a Savior that by believing in Him, they might be saved. John 3:16 in a nutshell.

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I can only surmise from your words that you believe God loves hell.

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I am in no way bound by your surmising, a truth concerning which I am gloriously happy.

This has gone far enough. You have described no plausible method for determining the supposed "genuine attitudes" of Christ which was the question this thread started with. Your complaint that you cannot understand judgment and hell is well taken, but it is not a reliable method. It simply says you don't understand. Perhaps God understands it all quite well.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Sinners are heading for judgment, but the love of God sent a Savior that by believing in Him, they might be saved. John 3:16 in a nutshell.

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"Might be"???

And those who have never heard of Him?

Why is mankind cursed by a mistake Adam and Eve made?

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"Might be"???

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In the sense of "made possible".

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And those who have never heard of Him?

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Already answered by Aquinas.

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Why is mankind cursed by a mistake Adam and Eve made?

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Good question. Not sure I understand that. However, that mankind is sinful is the most clearly and obviously true doctrine I can find in the Bible.

Does the Bible say that, "mankind (is) cursed by a mistake Adam and Eve made?"

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Does the Bible say that, "mankind (is) cursed by a mistake Adam and Eve made?"

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Psalm 51:5 -- "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Romans, 5:12-21 -- "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all have sinned....

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So you want to stick with your understanding that faith in Christ prevents physical death?

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Huh? I never said "faith in Christ prevents physical death". Please stop fabricating things that plainly are not true. Please.

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Well...OK, but the passage plainly does not support such an interpretation.

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So you falsely quote me anyway ???

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Sinners are heading for judgment, but the love of God sent a Savior that by believing in Him, they might be saved. John 3:16 in a nutshell.

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Jl, READ MY LIPS, PLEASE. What does this have to do with your statement that "God's love for sinners and hell is connected" Do you now wish to retract that crazy statement?

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I am in no way bound by your surmising, a truth concerning which I am gloriously happy.

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A surmise means a conclusion based on what has been said - it has nothing to do with being bound. I doubt you're gloriously happy - I think you've gone over the edge.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

This has gone far enough. You have described no plausible method for determining the supposed "genuine attitudes" of Christ which was the question this thread started with.

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The plausible method is the same method any exegesis concerns itself with. It's ok for you to disagree but not to deny the methodology.

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Your complaint that you cannot understand judgment and hell is well taken,

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More false comments - (Dear God !!!). I NEVER complained I cannot understand judgement and hell. I understand it far better than you ever will, unless you open your mind.

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Does the Bible say that, "mankind (is) cursed by a mistake Adam and Eve made?"



Psalm 51:5 -- "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me"

Romans, 5:12-21 -- "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all have sinned....

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You are taking those texts literally?????

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Huh? I never said "faith in Christ prevents physical death". Please stop fabricating things that plainly are not true. Please.

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According to you, the text reads in this manner. "...that whosoever believeth in Him will not perish (die physically)..." That is the meaning you have attached to "perish".

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Jl, READ MY LIPS, PLEASE. What does this have to do with your statement that "God's love for sinners and hell is connected" Do you now wish to retract that crazy statement?

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No. Perfectly happy with it. This, I believe, was my statement. "If you will read John 3:16 even semi-carefully, you will find your answer. It's where the judgment of God and the love of God meet."

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The plausible method is the same method any exegesis concerns itself with. It's ok for you to disagree but not to deny the methodology.

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Blah, blah, blah. The methodology has been dismantled previously. Game over.

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A surmise means a conclusion based on what has been said.

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Surmise all you want. I have no connection with your inaccurate conclusions. My meaning was plain.

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I NEVER complained I cannot understand judgement and hell. I understand it far better than you ever will, unless you open your mind.

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Yes, you have.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You are taking those texts literally?????

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Isn't that your requirement?

Isn't that your prohibition?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Isn't that your prohibition?

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Depends. The Bible contains poetry, allegories, history, wise sayings, sermons, and, yes, literal truth.

It also contains scripture which makes you uncomfortable, and those must NEVER be taken literally. So I'll let you investigate this on your own. I don't care for the backdoor you give yourself. And that is not unkind or mean. It's just, as you well know, very true.