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Originally Posted by Joe

How do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Are these different waters? If so, whose 'water' would it be? How would you render 'water' in this verse?

Baptism, according to Christ's words (not this Catholic's word), is necessary to enter the Kingdom of God.

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Look back to my answer, and look at the verse of Matt 28:19. You have to accept Christ in your heart, then you get baptized. So, if you get baptized, that must mean that you have accepted Christ in your heart. Baptism is a symbol, the physical symbol for Satan, that you have accepted Christ ion your heart. I believe that being born again is more 'spiritual' and you have to make it 'physical', and that's through baptism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe

Compared to adults, infants are not very smart, are they? They can't even care for themselves, need to be feed, put to sleep, etc. The infant cannot survive without the care of adults. You might say they are 'primitive' humans – not quite human (that's an inside joke for people who had kids)? In any event there is a vast distance between the intellect of an infant and an adult. I wonder what the distance between the intellect of an adult and God is? To an omnipotent God, wouldn't the distance between an adult and an infant approach zero, that is relative to the distance between an adult and God? So, couldn't you say that baptism of any person (adult or infant) would be 'infant baptism' when viewed by God?

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Joe, I believe that there is some point, when a child understands the meaning of God, how important He is in his life, what He did for him, then he is able to be baptized. Accepting God depends on the individual only. I know it was of good intention that parents baptized their children when they are still very very small, but the choice of the infant was not made. He is just being baptized, without knowing the significance of it.

I hope this made sense to you.

Unknown008,
I disagree.
Baptism is far more than a mere symbol.
Baptism is a command instituted by Jesus Christ and therefore a sacrament. Bringing the grace of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

I hope this made sense to you.

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No, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Look back to my answer, and look at the verse of Matt 28:19. You have to accept Christ in your heart, and then you get baptized. So, if you get baptized, that must mean that you have accepted Christ in your heart. Baptism is a symbol, the physical symbol for Satan, that you have accepted Christ ion your heart. I believe that being born again is more 'spiritual' and you have to make it 'physical', and that's through baptism.

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We look at Matt 28:19 we don't see 'accept in your heart'; instead it commands the Apostles to “[Go] therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” Why would the ruler of the Kingdom of God command his Apostles to do something they don't need to do, i.e. baptize? In contrast, when you look at John 3:3, we see no ambiguity – none. Christ says, nobody enters except by water and the Spirit. Excuse the pun here, but this is a sink or swim adjuration. Again in verse 5, “born again of the water and the Spirit.” How can man be born again by water, unless these are the waters are the waters of Baptism? Christ, and the Jews of his day would have immediately connected waters to “Mikvah” (MIK-vuh) the Jewish cleansing ritual, “[Litugical]. Gathering. A ritual bath used for spiritual purification. It is used primarily in conversion rituals and after the period of sexual separation during a woman's menstrual cycles, but many Chasidim immerse themselves in the mikvah regularly for general spiritual purification. See Search Results and Mikveh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

Joe, I believe that there is some point, when a child understands the meaning of God, how important He is in his life, what He did for him, then he is able to be baptized. Accepting God depends on the individual only. I know it was of good intention that parents baptized their children when they are still very very small, but the choice of the infant was not made. He is just being baptized, without knowing the significance of it.

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The graces conveyed in baptism are real and efficacious; remaining for life. They consist of the following:

The remission of all sin, original and actual
Remission of temporal punishment
Infusion of supernatural grace, gifts, and virtues
Conferral of the right to special graces
Impression of a character on the soul

So, to withhold such graces would not be following Christ; “But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.” Matt 19:14

JoeT

Joe,
When it come to baptism that is my very special favorite passage, "But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.” Matt 19:14
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Unknown008,
I disagree.
Baptism is far more than a mere symbol.
Baptism is a command instituted by Jesus Christ and therefore a sacrament. bringing the grace of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Yes, baptism is a symbol, but also a command. I never said the contrary. This applies to the quote of Joe hereunder too. I was only wondering earlier what happened to the people that didn't have time to baptize and they were dead. For example, if one was seriously ill, terminal cancer. What happens if he accepts God, and wants to get baptized but died before being able to do it? That was what I was wondering. I didn't say that baptism is not important. Since it is a command, disobeying to that forbids us the entrance to be saved.

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Originally Posted by Joe

We look at Matt 28:19 we don’t see ‘accept in your heart’; instead it commands the Apostles to “[Go] therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”Why would the ruler of the Kingdom of God command his Apostles to do something they don’t need to do, i.e. baptize?

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Doesn't that mean that they have to learn about God? And once you know God, if you believe in Him, you will have to accept Him in your heart. Notice that they had to teach before they baptize the nations. If that was not the case, then any non-believer could merely take the baptism, without actually knowing or accepting God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe

In contrast, when you look at John 3:3, we see no ambiguity – none. Christ says, nobody enters except by water and the Spirit. Excuse the pun here, but this is a sink or swim adjuration. Again in verse 5, “born again of the water and the Spirit.” How can man be born again by water, unless these are the waters are the waters of Baptism? Christ, and the Jews of his day would have immediately connected waters to “Mikvah” (MIK-vuh) the Jewish cleansing ritual, “[Litugical]. gathering. A ritual bath used for spiritual purification. It is used primarily in conversion rituals and after the period of sexual separation during a woman's menstrual cycles, but many Chasidim immerse themselves in the mikvah regularly for general spiritual purification. See Search Results and Mikveh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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John 3:3 : Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 : Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I just found something... in verse 3, He says "see" and does not mention water.
In verse 5, I interpret that as being: After being born again (spiritually, that is in your heart, in v3) then to take: the physical baptism, that is water baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that you have to get baptized by water, then by the Holy Spirit, but you have to be born again first, then do both.

I just search 'Chasidim', I ended up with Chasidism and your search link said that it was a sect...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe

The graces conveyed in baptism are real and efficacious; remaining for life. They consist of the following:

The remission of all sin, original and actual
Remission of temporal punishment
Infusion of supernatural grace, gifts, and virtues
Conferral of the right to special graces
Impression of a character on the soul

So, to withhold such graces would not be following Christ; “But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.” Matt 19:14

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I did not say withhold those graces. I said that baptism is a personal choice. One cannot be baptized through the choice of another one. Once one is ready to get baptized and gets baptized, he will get those graces, even if it took some time. During that time, that one was being taught.

I will ask again, : Jesus himself waited for so many years to get baptized. Why not at his birth?

I know that Jesus said that, and this is because children are innocent, they do not know yet whether they are right or wrong (although it is less and less the case today, but it is still present). He said that because often, adults know what they are doing is wrong, but yet, they do it.

Unknown008,
Several different Churches believe that a person will be considered baptized if they have desired to be so but die before the ceremony actually takes place.
The Catholic Church is one of those that so believe.
The reason is because of the person's good INTENT and the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

Unknown008,
Several different Churches believe that a person will be considered baptized if they have desired to be so but die before the ceremony actually takes place.
The Catholic Church is one of those that so believe.
The reason is because of the person's good INTENT and the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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That's how I feel too, and explains why I said that 'baptism is not necessary'! Phew, you at last saw my point! Thanks Fred! :)

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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Originally Posted by Unknown008

I agree that baptism does not save. It is accepting Christ in our heart as lord and saviour which does.

I know that immersion is the actual tradition. I would understand too that if one is not completely immersed, the Lord will still honour it. That would be the case when one cannot be immersed totally, like for example, an handicapped would not be easily taken for water immersion, nor would a person suffering from a serious disease. But one who can spare the time for this, complete immersion is preferred. That's my opinion anyway, :)

And yes, Joe and Fred, the bible did not explicitly mentioned the baptism of infants.

If you look in Matt 28:19, you'll see that Jesus told his disciples to go through the nations, and make them disciples of God, and then baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I wonder how can an infant who doesn't understand yet his/her purpose on earth be a disciple... :rolleyes:

And what sndbay said is another reason. Jesus waited for so many years (30 years) to get baptized. Why not at his birth?

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Unknown,

I believe in dedicating my baby or infant to the Lord Jesus. I did it privately in my home while rocking them to sleep. It was just a prayer to the Lord so he knew I wanted to raise my boys to know HIM. I used a promise in His word that says those who honor HIM.. HE will honor. I asked for him to honor the fact that I would teach them how to become born again and I would bring them up to both love and fear HIm.

I get your issue with baptizing infants and yet I understand why many Christians do it. It is a sign to the Lord they will raise their children to follow Christ. BUT It isn't an act of the infants will, nor is it their decision. And ultimately every person has to make their own decision concerning Christ. My boys are not ultimatically in the body of Christ because I am. They have to ask the Lord to be their savior, I can't do it for them.

In the NT... you will read in one of Paul's letters that he had baptized some brothers entire household. Many assume there could have been small children or infants in that family. I don't know?? I personally waited until my children understood what was happening, and WHY. But baptism isn't necessary for salvation, however it is an obedient step AFTER salvation. That is what I can glean from the word. Many will disagree.

I wanted to be immersed and I wanted my children to be too. It is a "picture: of dying to one self and coming up out of the water to live for Christ. ( outward expression of an inward change) I just don't get dogmatic about it. If someone tells me they Love Jesus, they live for him, they walk in the Spirit and they were only "sprinkled" during baptism.....i guess i figure that is between them and the Lord Jesus.

The Lord Jesus wasn't baptized until he was ready to begin his earthy ministry. BUT HIS baptism in NOT the same as ours. When John the baptist baptized he preached the gospel of the Kingdom...not the gospel of salvation ( not Paul's gospel)....and JOHN had NO understanding or knowledge of the Lord Jesus' death, burial and ressurection. Which is what our baptism and Christianity is all about. Those our my thoughts....what say you?

FRED,

Jesus surely DID say to bring the little children to him. when I was a little girl around 4 years we had a Bible for children and I could "read" that story outloud EVERY word. Of course it was just memory because I couldn't really read. I LOVED it. And I still do. Children are precious to our savior and it takes child like faith to come to him. It is a lesson for all of us... :) We as christian parents and grandparents need to take serious consideration to this passage in scripture! What a wonderful picture of his love and his interest in our children's lives!! :)

Review please, and edify by the Word of God

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Originally Posted by sndbay

1 Peter 3:20-21 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

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Who says baptism does not save us? Do you not see and hear the Word of God ?

Tell me where scripture tells us that baptism does not save.


Without baptism how would we put on Christ? How would we be buried in Christ?

Please tell me, for I have been told the ONE BAPTISM is the same spiritual body as one with Christ.



Psalm 143:11-12 Quicken me, O LORD, for thy name's sake: for thy righteousness' sake bring my soul out of trouble. And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant.

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Originally Posted by classyT

But baptism isn't necessary for salvation, however it is an obedient step AFTER salvation. That is what I can glean from the word. Many will disagree.

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Review:

The meaning of word quick (Acts 10:42)
zao 2198 = living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul

Who will be judged ?

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

DEAD
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

QUICK (or) the QUICKENED = by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If Christ will judge the quick and the dead, who are they? Are they baptized?

Unknown008,
Please do not misinterpret what I said.
I do strongly believe that baptism is necessary.
But IF there is a situation where a person intends to be baptized but dies before it can happen that intent is considered by the love and mercy of God as a baptism.
So you see that baptism is necessary either way.
Baptism by itself does not save but it is necessary for salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I don't think the Lord makes exceptions for anyone. If baptism is required for salvation, then it is required for salvation. But it isn't required... Jesus finished the work on the cross. I'm not suggesting that baptism isn't important or something the Lord wants us to do. But the bible says that salvation is of the LORD. He is the only one that can save us.

Think about it. It takes another person to baptize us. The Lord finished the work... we are to accept it as a free gift. I don't want to have to rely on another human being to get me to heaven. No person can baptize themselves. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with obedience. But we have been around this mountain before and neither of us have changed our minds. One of us is wrong... glad it ain't me.! ;)

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Originally Posted by classyT

...But [baptism] isn't required...Jesus finished the work on the cross. I'm not suggesting that baptism isn't important or something the Lord wants us to do. But the bible says that salvation is of the LORD. He is the only one that can save us.

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Look into the very last chapter of Matthew. What's said there? This Chapter tells of Christ's last few words before ascending to His Kingdom in Heaven. Christ warrants and commissions the Apostles with His vested powers, “teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.”

Focus the entire story of Christ on this moment, you know it as well as I do. But focus the meaning of the beatitudes, communion, confession, His sermon on the mount, His healing miracles, and all His teachings on this very last moment with the Princes of His Kingdom on Earth; men He tutored for some three years or four years. What does he say – “have a nice day”? “It's not really necessary but I want you to traipes around the county dunking people?“ NO! NO! He said, “baptize them in the NAME of the “Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” WHY! Why would Christ say such a thing? Surly, you've got to see some importance? Wouldn't you think baptism is a little more than a 'good thing' given what he told Nicodemus (Cf. John 3:3)? I challenge you to explain these contradictions to your own satisfaction. No need to argure one side or the other here, just foucus and prayerfully reflect on these questions for awhile. There is only one universal answer, one truth, which has been taught for 2.000 years.


JoeT

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Originally Posted by classyT

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Think about it. It takes another person to baptize us. The Lord finished the work ...we are to accept it as a free gift. I don't want to have to rely on another human being to get me to heaven. No person can baptize themself. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with obedience. But we have been around this mountain before and neither of us have changed our minds. one of us is wrong....glad it ain't me.!!! ;)

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ClassyT,

Scripture says Christ was baptized by the Spirit of God descending. Baptism is perform by the Spirit of God.. It takes no mans hand to baptize.. You could be led into a pool of water of your own surrendered will, to do the Will of God . No greater witness then God (1 John 5:5-9)

Mark 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him


Acts 8:38 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

He is always with you..
Hebrew 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

ClassyT,

Scripture says Christ was baptized by the Spirit of God descending. Baptism is perform by the Spirit of God. It takes no man’s hand to baptize. You could be led into a pool of water of your own surrendered will, to do the Will of God. No greater witness then God (1 John 5:5-9)

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Explain why Christ Commissioned His Church to ‘go baptize’ in Matthew chapter 28? Can you explain why this is?

You’re right; always “the testimony of God is greater.” He commanded His Captains to go Baptize; and by extension, commands us to be baptized. If baptism is a meaningless symbol surly you can show how this verse is meaningless also. By all means, look to the credibility of the testimony!

JoeT

JoeT,

I see the importance!! I don't say it isn't important Joe. I have been baptized and my children as well. BUT it does NOT save us. Do you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ was talking to the JEWISH nation! Did you ever read where the Lord Jesus even talked ABOUT salvation, the bride of Christ, or church or GRACE period. NO! He didn't. Do you understand that in the 4 Gospels you will never find HOW TO BE SAVED or how salvation WORKS. Not even John 3:16 is the Gospel. Do you Know that the dicsiples had NO clue there would be a period of Grace and that Gentiles would be part of the Church! They didn't understand why he died on the cross and were shocked he rose again! Although Jesus told them it would happen. But he never explained the period of Grace.. he never explained his BRIDE! He didn't explain exactly how being born again REALLY took place. They were ALL baffled. For a JEW to turn from JUDISM and be baptized because they believed that JESUS WAS the messiah... was ALL that was necessary at that point. Peter had NO knowledge of anything MORE than Jesus setting up his earthy kingdom. That is why PETER when he is talking to the Jews in Acts tells them ( the JEWS of HIS time)to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins! Peter believed that Jesus was coming back to set up the kingdom in HIS life time. He had NO knowledge of Paul's Gospel of Grace! You better believe those Jews needed to just that... but the flip side is when the Lord revealed the Gospel of Grace to Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles.) That is when the writings started to be written directly to the CHURCH or the body of Christ. Paul's gospel was and IS.. If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy HEART that God raised him from the dead... THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Paul baptized families... but he understood it was the finished work of CHRIST and HIS shed blood that SAVED.
So... baptism IS important... it is an outward expression to the world of an inward change. It just doesn't save me. What can wash away my sins?. nothing but the blood of Jesus!

There are NO contradictions in the word IF you understand how to read it... who it is written DIRECTLY to... who the person is SPEAKING about.. what is happening in that period.

I don't consider baptism just "good thing" It is what the Lord asked us to do... not for salvation though. He also asked us to partake in the Lord's supper or communion to remember HIM and his death. I do that as well. WHY? Not to save my soul but because he asked me to.


I know, I know... I didn't change your mind. But you can't blame a girl for trying!

edit: you can't blame a girl with multiple natures from trying... ( yes, I'm making fun of myself and you for saying that earlier today. See?. all my personalities have a sense of humor!)

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Originally Posted by classyT

JoeT,

I see the importance!!! I don't say it isn't important Joe. I have been baptized and my children as well. BUT it does NOT save us. Do you understand that the Lord Jesus Christ was talking to the JEWISH nation! Did you ever read where the Lord Jesus even talked ABOUT salvation, the bride of Christ, or church or GRACE period.? NO! he didn't. Do you understand that in the 4 Gospels you will never find HOW TO BE SAVED or how salvation WORKS. Not even John 3:16 is the Gospel. Do you Know that the dicsiples had NO clue there would be a period of Grace and that Gentiles would be part of the Church! They didn't understand why he died on the cross and were shocked he rose again! Although Jesus told them it would happen. But he never explained the period of Grace..he never explained his BRIDE! He didn't explain exactly how being born again REALLY took place. They were ALL baffled. For a JEW to turn from JUDISM and be baptized because they believed that JESUS WAS the messiah...was ALL that was necessary at that point. Peter had NO knowledge of anything MORE than Jesus setting up his earthy kingdom. That is why PETER when he is talking to the Jews in Acts tells them ( the JEWS of HIS time)to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins! Peter believed that Jesus was coming back to set up the kingdom in HIS life time. He had NO knowledge of Paul's Gospel of Grace! You better believe those Jews needed to just that...but the flip side is when the Lord revealed the Gospel of Grace to Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles.) That is when the writings started to be written directly to the CHURCH or the body of Christ. Paul's gospel was and IS..If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in thy HEART that God raised him from the dead...THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Paul baptized families...but he understood it was the finished work of CHRIST and HIS shed blood that SAVED.
So...baptism IS important...it is an outward expression to the world of an inward change. It just doesn't save me.! What can wash away my sins????...nothing but the blood of Jesus!

There are NO contradictions in the word IF you understand how to read it....who it is written DIRECTLY to...who the person is SPEAKING about..what is happening in that period of time.

I don't consider baptism just "good thing" It is what the Lord asked us to do...not for salvation though. He also asked us to partake in the Lord's supper or communion to remember HIM and his death. I do that as well. WHY? not to save my soul but because he asked me to.


I know, i know....i didn't change your mind. But ya can't blame a girl for trying!

edit: you can't blame a girl with multiple natures from trying....( yes, I'm making fun of myself and you for saying that earlier today. see?....all my personalities have a sense of humor!)

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I can only surmise it was the old-you.

JoeT

Note: You lost me in the suppositions and ill formed rationality.

Never-the-less I firmly believe that Jesus command about baptism is extremely important for salvation.
As I have said before, baptism by its self does not save, but it is a necessity along with faith and doing as Jesus instructed us all to do.
Considering all that is written in the bible about baptism I find it to be a great mystery that there are folks who do not believe that it is a necessity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I should have been more clear on that point... baptism is not necessary in the sense that a believer intending to get baptized did not have time to get baptized. I do believe that we have to get baptized, because we have to obey our God, and it forms part of our journey towards Christlikeness. Disobeying to God (not getting baptized, here) is going against God.

Sorry, sndbay,

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Originally Posted by sndbay

It takes no mans hand to baptize..

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I have not seen anywhere in the scripture where water baptism was performed alone. Jesus went to John Baptist, Philip baptized the eunuch, etc... :confused: I do understand that it is the Spirit of God which baptize us by the Holy Spirit.

Unknown008,
Your point id well made.
God uses his followers, us, often to do His work.
Peace and kindness,
Fred