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Well, if the people you speak of were SAVED and only the Lord knows for sure, Then I believe they are STILL saved. I believe the Lord when he says "i will never leave you or forsake you". You say... but you can leave him and I say back.. and he said NEVER... NEVER means that. He isn't going to leave me even if I wonder off like a stupid sheep. He doesn't call us sheep for nothing.. they are STUPID.
Two of them came into money, inheritances, and are knocking themselves out now to spend and live high off the hog. They have no use for church or for God. Another one has gotten a lot of tough situations in his life and blames God for them, has renounced his church membership and wants nothing to do with God. No, God hasn't left them, but they want nothing to do with God.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
You referred to the "tasted" but let's look at this in more detail:Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Heb 6:4-7
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
NKJV
What are the attributes of those spoken of here?
1) There were once enlightened. In the context, what were they enlightened to if not the gospel?
2) They tasted the heavenly gift, the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come. I am not sure how you do this without taking it in.
3) They were partakers of the Holy Spirit. The same term used to describe those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in 2 Peter 1:4
4) They were once renewed to repentance. How can this happen to an unsaved person?
5) They fall away - from what if they were not saved?
6) If they were able to return to repentance (how is that possible if they never repented in the first place>) they would crucify Christ again (if unsaved when did the crucifixion of Christ first apply to them?
Tom,
Hmmm. Well I do not write as well as you, I'm not as smart as you and I'm not as logical as you but... I will attempt to explain it.
The writer of Hebrews is writing to the Jews. Some of these Jews had a really hard time giving up the Law. They were prone to hang on to Judaism. It is obvious they did not understand Paul's doctrine of Grace. Sure they could accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah but Paul wanted them to understand that He had died for the sins of the world. I think you have to understand that before you can understand Hebrews.
I will go down your list and try to give you answers as I see them in the word. But I am tired now and I want to do a good job so I may do more tomorrow when I am fresh and can think clearer.
I will say this though, you most certainly can be enlightened and have an emotional experience without really being a believer. The story that comes to my mind off hand is King Nebuchandezzar. This guy throws the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and notices that there are 4 guys walking around. He even exclaims that the 4th looked like the Son of God. The only way in the WORLD he could have known that was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. He then went on to gush about how Wonderful the Hebrew God was and on and on. I mean he had an experience!! Hyped up, pumped up... I get a kick though it doesn't take him long to forget it and go out and think about how great HE was and all HIS hands had made. He was enlightened... it just didn't really sink into him. He went back to his old ways...
You can partake of the Holy Spirit, I think Judas did. He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible.. he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.
I am going to look up Fall away and study it a bit... I know that the greek word used in this passage is the ONLY time it was used. It wasn't like the falling away paul speaks of in the last days.. but I don't have my facts straight so I'm not going to try to explain it just yet.
Judas was not saved?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
classyT,
I think it means that we are to have the highest respect for God and know that he is perfect in all aspects including, love, mercy, and JUSTICE.
We should keep in mind always that sin is what damns us and that every sin must be forgiven in the manner mentioned in Holy Scripture.
The sins of days gone by that you asked for forgiveness for today will be forgiven, but not those of tomorrows unless you confess them with remorse and ask for forgiveness.
Also keep in mind what Jesus said about forgiveness. If we do not forgive others we will NOT be forgiven.
That is where the trembling comes in. We should not goof up and start asuming everything about our salvation is A-OK and forget to do the work of being saved.
Faith is but one of the works of being saved. Being sorry for our sins, asking for forgiveness and forgiving others are also works that are necessary.
It's all there in Holy Scripture on what we must do.
May the grace of God helps on our trek up the road to heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I beg to differ. I have found you to be both smart and capable of logically presenting your views.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Agreed.Quote:
The writer of Hebrews is writing to the Jews. Some of these Jews had a really hard time giving up the Law. They were prone to hang on to Judaism. It is obvious they did not understand Paul's doctrine of Grace. Sure they could accept the Lord Jesus as the Messiah but Paul wanted them to understand that He had died for the sins of the world. I think you have to understand that before you can understand Hebrews.
I would disagree that an emotional experience qualifies as enlightenment. Often emotion will cloud the logical portion of the mind and will in fact make enlightenment more difficult.Quote:
I will say this though, you most certainly can be enlightened and have an emotional experience without really being a believer. The story that comes to my mind off hand is King Nebuchandezzar. This guy throws the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace and notices that there are 4 guys walking around. He even exclaims that the 4th looked like the Son of God. The only way in the WORLD he could have known that was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit.
Of course Nebuchadnezzar did turn to the one true God at the end, so the Holy Spirit was working on him:
Dan 4:36-37
36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.
NKJV
But keep in mind also that in the OT, the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers as He did after the ascension of Christ, so when we read this passage in Hebrews, we have to read it also in the light of the NT when we refer to the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
As did David. But I am sure that you would agree that David was saved.Quote:
He was enlightened... it just didn't really sink into him. He went back to his old ways...
We cannot go by what we think happened when we are talking doctrinal issues. Scripture nowhere says that Judas partook of the Holy Spirit, nor could he have in the NT sense of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because he was dead by that time.Quote:
You can partake of the Holy Spirit, I think Judas did.
Further, scripture is clear that the unsaved cannot partake of the Holy Spirit:
John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
You will not find anything in scripture about a non-believer receiving the Holy Spirit, being a partaker of the Holy Spirit, or any similar reference.
Where does scripture say that he partook of the Holy Spirit?Quote:
He saw the Lord Jesus do every miracle possible.. he was part of it. He was sent out to cast out devils and preach the Gospel of the Kingdom but he never embraced it, he didn't have faith. But he most DID partake.
Okay, fair enough. I look forward to hearing what you find out.Quote:
I am going to look up Fall away and study it a bit... I know that the greek word used in this passage is the ONLY time it was used. It wasn't like the falling away paul speaks of in the last days.. but I don't have my facts straight so I'm not going to try to explain it just yet.
We have discussed the levels of knowledge God grants to HIS children. Perhaps that fact has to be understood for everyone to recognize how we do work in a sense, at being all God created us to be.
Scripture teaches that we are graced according to the measure of gift of Christ. (Eph 4:7)
We are being built to be that one body in Christ.. We endeavour many things to stay in unity with the one spirit our Saviour Christ.. As we have been called to be the body of fresh in one hope joined to the one spirit Christ Jesus.
Though One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism( Eph 4:5)
Paul spoke of this being the imprisoned walk in one spirit that we walk worthy and in obedence to the Will of God. That we might be granted according to HIS glory the blessing of spirit in the inner most flesh.(Eph 3:16) It is known to be the fulfillment of God within us, grounded in faith and love where Christ dwells within us.
Col 2:6-7 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Tom, I feel the possible falling away is : Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9-12 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
LOL... ok don't make me come through this screen and smack you... that IS MY LINE. I know, I know, I should NOT have said I THINK. The problem that we are having is the what Paul meant by Partake. I do not study Greek but I heard someone say that if you study the word Paul used for partake.. it means someone who came along side to help NOT someone who had the Holy Spirit indwelling them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I disagree with King Nebbynot being enlightened, I don't know how he could have possibly proclaimed that the 4th man in the furnace LOOKED like the son of God.
Daniel 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound in the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, oh King.25. He answered them and said, Lo I see FOUR men loose, walking in the midst of the fire and they have not hurt... AND THE FORM OF THE FOURTH IS LIKE THE SON OF GOD.
How in the world could he have KNOWN something like that? It was enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. And Yes he eventually did believe God after the Lord showed him who was really in charge.. but he was enlightened... re read the praise he had for the God of the Hebrews. You would have thought he was a believer, but he wasn't... not yet anyway.
Now if the word "partake" that Paul uses in Hebrews means someone who comes along side to help... that is why I believe Judas did indeed partake. He didn't have faith, he saw the work of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis and was sent out to do the same thing that Jesus was doing. So indeed he did PARTAKE.
Notice that Paul uses "surfacey" words to describe these jews... They TASTED ( I taste things to see if I'm going to like it) that is what I believe Paul is saying they did. They were ENLIGHTENED.. doesn't say they were believers... just that the Holy Spirit had shown them some things... ( by the way happens ALL the time) Partakers... not that the Holy Spirit had been indwelling them, not that they were actually IN Christ, not that they were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ( notice the difference when he is talking about the man in 1 Corinthians 5... this guy was a believer and Paul says give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be SAVED.
The difference in the man in corinthians and the Jews Paul writes to in Hebrews is... the man was living in sin!! So Paul says.. let Satan have at him for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit will be saved. But in HEBREWS these Jews were living in Unbelief... Oh they were enlightened.. yes they partook and tasted but they went back to their sacrifices. Put themselves under the Law. Could accept the Gospel of the KINGDOM that Jesus preached. See hebrews 6:1 Paul is telling them MOVE ON there is MORE but they couldn't accept the Gospel of Grace. Now what is the only thing the Lord can't forgive..?. Unbelief. For without faith it is impossible to please him. They were in unbelief. Why else would people go back to sacrificing and the Law unless they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus?
AND.. while I'm on my tangent... lol I THINK ( yes they are MY thoughts) when Jesus said to blaspheme the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin that people today can't even do it. I believe he was talking to the Jews that stood and watched the dead rise, the sick healthy, the lame walk, the blind see... and they walked away in unbelief. Just like Judas did... ( I'm not even sure I should have thrown that in... and they are just MY thoughts on that particular subject which really has nothing to do with everything else I have said... ) oh well.
I'm still looking up the "falling away"... don't worry.. I will be back... ;)
Well NO! How could he be?? He betrayed the Lord and instead of asking for forgiveness he hangs himself. He didn't believe, he had NO faith. Notice the difference in Peter's response after he betrayed the Lord. Plus Jesus point blank says that one of the twelve was a devil. Judas is also described as the son of perdition and the only other person who is called that is the antichrist. The Lord Jesus also said it would have been better for Judas if he hadn't been born. No... I do not believe that Judas was saved... no. nada, ain't no way, no how. Incidentally, when Judas killed himself the Bible says he went to his OWN place. I don't know what that means exactly but when the thief on the cross died the Lord said he would be with him in paradise... big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What happens if I don't have TIME to repent. What if I get killed instantly in a car accident and I had just told a little white lie before I got into the car... Or if I don't KNOW that what I had done was a sin? I really believe Jesus died for everyone of my sins, that I need to keep short accounts with God because when I don't it effects my relationship with him NOT my salvation.
The Lord calls us sheep because we are dumb just like they are.. they are prone to wander off, get caught in something, get hurt... they aren't real bright and neither are we. I thank Jesus that he doesn't expect me to try and keep my salvation. Salvation is of the Lord and if I have any WORK in it other than belief in what the Lord did... I will screw it UP! Don't you all feel that way too? Do you really think you can keep yourself saved? Am I that much of a screw up that I am the only one that KNOWS my flesh stinks to high heaven and as long as I have it... it will be a BATTLE?
Also note that Judas was a thief while he was one of the disciples. I see no evidence that Judas was saved at any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Classy,Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I agree.
This is what I meant when I said that we cannot "lose" our salvation though we can deliberately turn away. God is not looking for a reason to condem us. If so Jesus would not have willing gone to the cross for our sins. God is not willing that any should perish, but rather wants us all to receive Jesus as Saviour. We are not going to lose our salvation every time that we commit a sin. 1 John 1:9 says that the Jesus paid the price for all unrighteousness.
Tom
The word used in this passage is metochos, which means a "sharer", "partaker" or "partner".Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Notice in 2 Pet 1:4 when we are referred to as "partakers", it says that we have escaped corruption that is in the world through lust. In Hebrews 6, as I mentioned befiore, it speaks of those to which it refers having been "renewed to repetance". How can that refer to an unsaved person? How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Spirit who is renewed to repetance?
We don't have enough on him to really make this a point of contention, in my opinion. I do see a difference between the Holy Spirit providing guidance to an unsaved person. For example, look at the usage of the word in Ephesians 1:18. That would seem to be referring to the saved, and not applicable to the unsaved.Quote:
I disagree with King Nebbynot being enlightened, I don't know how he could have possibly proclaimed that the 4th man in the furnace LOOKED like the son of God.
So we could debate about whether Nebby was saved, but though he was given what may have been divinely inspired understanding on that one point, that would not mean that he was enlightened as the term is used in Eph 1:18.
We need to take these altogether along with the fact they are described as falling away and having been renewed to repentance. When this is taken into consideration of them being partakers of the Holy Spirit (understood also in light of 2 Pet 1:4), I honestly don't know how much more clearly he could have described a person who was saved, but abandoned his or her salvation.Quote:
Notice that Paul uses "surfacey" words to describe these jews... They TASTED ( I taste things to see if I'm going to like it) that is what I believe Paul is saying they did. They were ENLIGHTENED.. doesn't say they were believers... just that the Holy Spirit had shown them some things... ( by the way happens ALL the time) Partakers... not that the Holy Spirit had been indwelling them, not that they were actually IN Christ, not that they were SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ( notice the difference when he is talking about the man in 1 Corinthians 5... this guy was a believer and Paul says give him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his SPIRIT may be SAVED.
I won't bring up a certain weekly sacrificing ritual of a certain major denomination ;)Quote:
Why else would people go back to sacrificing and the Law unless they didn't believe in the finished work of Jesus?
Tom,
I don't know if you remember that I told you I grew up in an assembly that the "world" named plymouth Brethren. I say world because they never took a name and they believed it was not scriptural. John Darby was one of the so called founders of these assemblies that still exsist all over the world today> I think John Darby was a Brilliant guy although many disagree with his teachings on the rapture... ANYWAY... this is what he had to say concerning turning your back on the Lord.
John Darby, of the Plymouth brethren, who was preaching on the verse 'walk in the light as God is in the light' when someone yell out 'And what if we turn our back on God's light?' Darby responded, 'then God's light will shine on your back.' What was He saying? That God is faithful and doesn't give up on those that are His.
BTW, have you heard of John Darby and are you familiar with his teaching?
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
To discern his actions as being wrong is one thing, but to judge His soul ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 27:3-4 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.
Matthew 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
The potter's field for that broken vessel..
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed. I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.
Snd,
I do not believe that Judas had any faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God.. I know you know the verse. I DO NOT base my belief on anything but the word of God. The Lord Jesus said he was a devil, called him the son of perdition, said it would have been better if he hadn't been born. The scriptures also record Judas went to his own place. These are FACTS in the Bible... dont believe me? Ok... check it out...
John 6:64, 68a, 69a, 70, and 71 records the words of Jesus in regards to Judas:
“But there are some of you who do NOT believe". For Jesus KNEW from the beginning who they were who did NOT believe, and who it was that would BETRAY Him... Simon Peter answered Him... 'and we (apostles) have believed.' Jesus answered them, 'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him
If that isn't enough info for you check this verse out...
“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou has given Me; and I guarded them, and no one of them perished but (or except) the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled John 17:12
The scripture also says the Judas went to his own place... there is No where else in scripture where that phrase is used.
So you see, I do not JUDGE him... I am simply giving the FACTS of the Bible. The Lord Jesus said he was lost.. not me. The Lord Jesus said he was a devil.. not me. The Lord Jesus called him the son of perdition... not me.
With what has been recorded... I am scratching my head wondering how you could NOT believe that Judas was a unbeliever.
classyT,
I believe that partake means to participate in or with such as to partake of supper (eat it) or to partake of baseball (play in the sport) and you that with others.
The dictionary says... it is a intransitive verb 1 : to take part in or experience something along with others <partake in the revelry> <partake of the good life> 2 : to have a portion (as of food or drink) 3 : to possess or share a certain nature or attribute <the experience partakes of a mystical quality>
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I am aware of the Plymouth Brethren and aware of the general theological positions taken by Darby, though I cannot claim to be intimately familiar with all of his teachings.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
I did not judge his soul. I was examining the evidence given in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
He regretted what he did but that is not the same as receiving Jesus as Saviour. Where did he acknowledge Him as Lord? As Saviour? The same could be said of Pilate who knew that Jesus was innocent and washed his hands of the crime. But was he saved?Quote:
Matthew 27:3-4 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? See thou to that.
Matthew 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
The potter's field for that broken vessel..
Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly. For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed. I was a reproach among all mine enemies, but especially among my neighbours, and a fear to mine acquaintance: they that did see me without fled from me. I am forgotten as a dead man out of mind: I am like a broken vessel.
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