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Originally Posted by Will144

that's a first. I've been trained Anti-Catholic? wow And the Catholics have been trained Anti-Christ. Violating all the commandments beginning fro the first one. What do you call people who does not practice what the bible says? Lawlessness. I hope ELOHIM opens your eyes and allow you to realize that no church can give you eternal life but only the blood of Christ thru the Passover.

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Do Christians need to be circumcised?

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Originally Posted by Morganite

Do Christians need to be circumcised?

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No, that was in the old testament. Our hearts are what needs to be circumcised but obviously nowadays people are too arrogant with their own thoughts and though they see they do not understand. God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.

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God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.

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Is there anyone besides you who knows the truth, and if so where do I find these enlightened people?

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Originally Posted by Will144

No, that was in the old testament. Our hearts are what needs to be circumcised but obviously nowadays people are too arrogant with their own thoughts and though they see they do not understand. God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.

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Who are 'you guys'? Do you mean those not of your mind, or do you have a specific name for your group, or is that a secret?

It seems a little churlish, you will agree, to keep telling people they enter the wrong doors when they go to worship, but to not tell them which door they chould go through so they can do it right, according to your understanding of the Bible and its teachings.

When you joined your group were you sworn to absolute secrecy, Or are you free to share with 'us guys' which one it is that you belong to?

If you are supposed to be a missionary for 'your guys' and encourage other people to come into the little circle of light that alone has the correct understanding of Christianity, then by keeping your group a dread secret you are not fulfilling the terms of your ministry and its expectations.

Can you give it a name other than hinting that it is "The Church of The Big Secret"? I am sure that I am not the only one whose curiosity you have tickled. Is it time to stop the game and get serious?


M:)RGANITE

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Originally Posted by Will144

No, that was in the old testament. Our hearts are what needs to be circumcised but obviously nowadays people are too arrogant with their own thoughts and though they see they do not understand. God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.

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If what you say is true, and I am not yet convinced that it is, then the only people who know The Truthare God and You.

Instead of playing cat and mouse with our bafffled minds, why not get down to busioess, set out your table, your theology, your Bible support, and let us judge if what you have squares with the Bible and, whether it is better than what we have got? How does one set about joining God and you? Is there an application form, a catechism, an initiatory rite, an oath, a sacrifice, something done at sunrise towards the East, an incantation, brew, libation, potion, or a meeting under the hill by the grey wood at full moon? Master, show us the way.

What truths do you believe I have been shown by you but have rejected?


M:)

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Originally Posted by Will144

No, that was in the old testament. Our hearts are what needs to be circumcised but obviously nowadays people are too arrogant with their own thoughts and though they see they do not understand. God shows the truth and you guys reject it and follow your own ways.

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Are you saying that everything required of the congregation of Israel in the Old Testament is now redundant and not applicable to any aspect of Christian discipleship?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Is there anyone besides you who knows the truth, and if so where do I find these enlightened people??

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I myust be blind. His handle is Will 144. I therefore conclude that he is of the number who believe that only 144,000 souls will be saved in heaven. This is, of course, a misreading of what the scripture says.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5
5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6
6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7
7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:10
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:11
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 7:12
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 7:13
13 ¶ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?

Revelation 7:14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:15
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 7:16
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 7:17
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

This passage can in no wise be taken as limiting those who will be before the Lamb in heaven to 144,000 because they are, the Word says, numberless, and they are in heaven, and they are before the throne of Jesus Christ, who is on the throne of His Father. It is a simple error to believe otherwise, but it is not one that can be sustained once light is shed on the verse and its meaning.


Chapter 14
Revelation 14:1
1 ¶ AND I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:2
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

Revelation 14:3
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 14:4
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14:5
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


Note that verse 4 calls the 144K 'firstfruits' indicating that others will follow, so that the number from the tribes of Israel, except the tribe of Dan, will be swelled by other faithful souls.

The 'virgins' is a bit of a worry, because most JWs are married, and are not, therefore, virginal. Why is Dan's tribe selected to be unselected?

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Originally Posted by Morganite

If what you say is true, and I am not yet convinced that it is, then the only people who know The Truthare God and You.

Instead of playing cat and mouse with our bafffled minds, why not get down to busioess, set out your table, your theology, your Bible support, and let us judge if what you have squares with the Bible and, whether or not it is better than what we have got? How does one set about joining God and you? Is there an application form, a catechism, an initiatory rite, an oath, a sacrifice, something done at sunrise towards the East, an incantation, brew, libation, potion, or a meeting under the hill by the grey wood at full moon? Master, show us the way.

What truths do you believe I have been shown by you but have rejected?


M:)

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Yes will, I would like to know as well. The Catholic church's teachings (that you are condemning) are out there for all to read. Can I go to a Christian book store or library and find a book on your teachings instead of these anti websites.

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Originally Posted by Will144

Raping little kids, priests driving nice cars, religious leaders with golden cups and luxurious treats,
is that God's will? Did Jesus not humble himself? Did Jesus established any other church other than
The Church of God? These churches do evil in God's eye, and it's no my judgment, but God's judgment.

God's will, 7th Day Sabbath. Not 1st day Sunday. If Jesus kept the Sabbath Day holy, everyone should, specially those who claim to follow Christ. After all, we are not Jewish, but yet we beleive in Jesus? What shall we say then? Make up our on worship day (ex: 1st day worship) NO WAY! If it wasn't important to keep the Sabbath day holy, Jesus himself would not have done it.

According to Mt 7:21 only those who does the will of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven (7th Day Sabbath worship) not the evildoers (anything other than what God commanded us)

You may be able to point out a few verses when they met up on the first day, but you will not find any worshipping on the 1st day except for the Feasts of God and that's if they by coincidence fall on a Sunday. Other than that, God did not blessed the 1st day or made it holy. He Blessed the 7TH DAY SABBATH. You can go to church on Sundays as much as you can but you are not meeting with God to be blessed by him because that's why he appointed the 7th day Sabbath as a lasting ordinance. it's even in the 10 commandments (Ex 20:8).

If we don't keep Sabbath, we have no sign with God

Ezekiel 20:20
"Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."

God didn't say "keep my 1st days holy"

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Why not take a look at my reply to 'ordinaryguy' on the Sabbath.Saturday/Sunday question at:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...tml#post345680

You will find it instructive and correctional.


M:)

Maybe Will is a splinter off the JW's. I think they had to change their views after their membership passed the 144,000 mark. Ha!

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Originally Posted by Will144

If you have a secretary and you tell her to type a letter. Who signs it? you or the secretary? Who's word is it? The secretary's or yours? Who approves it, the secretary or you? Who's the boss? the secretary or you? And if she does not follow what you told her to do, won't you fire her? In the same way, the bible was written by people approved by God. The creator has control over the creatures, don't you think? What these men wrote in the bible is approved by God most High! It is God's word because the Spirit told them what to write, it's not their own interpretation or prophesies. So if the church says to you "Commit suicide and you will go to heaven" you will do so as well I suppose? that is the problem with people, they follow what churches and different religions say rather than the very word of God. It is so sad with this generations. No wonder God chose the foolish of the world to embarrass the wise, and the weak to destroy the strong, because people believe they have salvation by following their own ideas and churches rather than the bible itself which is the very word of God!

Who was the first pope? Wasn't it your father Constantine who gave himself the title of Pontifex Maximus for the papacy and was a High Priest for the Sun God rather than God's? And changed all the laws of God by coming up with his own which is something that now people follow (Sunday worship, christmas, the list goes on) instead of Sabbath and Passover? Even the churches that call themselves christian churches, did they not brake off from the Catholic Church and kept the same teachings? like one of your cardinals wrote in a book "it's like a boy running away from home but still keeping a picture of his mother" You claim that by grace you'll be saved, then how do you explain Mat 7:21-22? Clearly, there is a God's will that we need to follow which is Sabbath and Passover rather than man-made traditions. Even the apostles kept the Sabbath. Of course they had God's grace, that is because they followed the commandments of God. How can you dare saying the only reason you beleive the word of God is the bible is because a church said so? I will pray to God to enlightens your path and enable you to understand the humble way of Jesus Christ. You have heard the truth, it is up to you whether to believe it or not. God Bless all of you. I did not come on this forum to argue but to make things more clear through the word of God, but obviously you think it is my own teachings rather than Christ's. It is not my teachings that you reject but God's, for I cannot teach anything and I have no wisdom; but God can surely show me how to do these things.

One last thing, I find it ironic the Catholic Church calls priests "Father" when Jesus clearly said:

"And do not call anyone on earth 'father', for you have one Father, and he is in heaven."

But yet you call your priests father? Obviously you have a physical father and even to them you say "dad" rather than father. How can you call someone else a father who isn't God?

God Bless.

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What did/do you call your daddy? There is no difference between calling your male parent father, pops, pappy, dad, or any other name that established the relationship as father and son. Jesus was not telling disciples not to recognise their fathers, but he was telling them, something quite profound that you appear to have overlooked.

It is not a matter of name, but of parentage. Think about it.

M:)

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Originally Posted by galveston

Maybe Will is a splinter off the JW's. I think they had to change their views after their membership passed the 144,000 mark. Ha!

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He has many JW beliefs, except the seventh day sabbath. Perhaps he has started his own cult and hasn't thought of a name for it yet.

I know that some splinters of WI churches have similar beliefs, although they depend for support on bad translations and worse interpretations of an English Bible text.

So why fall in with that stuff? If it is something to believe in why not look within in? You do not have to refer to the belief of ancient man for that!

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Originally Posted by RickJ

Excellent points galveston.

Will, I am no expert on Bible Prophecy...and in a group of people who claim to be there will be so many differences in what it means.

All who read the same Bible (and I am happy to use whatever version you use) will come up with different meanings...

So lets look at where we agree:
1. The New Testament is the group of books that we agree were written by Christians who were inspired by God - and those writings are without error right?

...then I ask you Who Says these books are Scripture? Nowhere in these writings are these writings identified as Scripture, so we must accept someone's judgment. Who's judgment are you trusting that they are Scripture?

I find it interesting that you accept this Canon that was agreed upon by the Catholic Church 1700 years ago.

2. Who were good Christians of the 2nd, 3rd, etc. centuries?

Can you point me to a Christian teacher of the 2nd century onward who I might read to learn more about this version of Christianity that you espouse?

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'Scripture' originally meant 'writings,' and the term was no specifically and exclusivley applied to holy writings until a much later date.

:)

The reality of the matter is; People are human. The Church is made up of humans. From the sinner to the saint, all are human, and all make mistakes. The Catholic Church is so vast that its would be suspicious if it did have only shining examples of exemplary behavior. But, it is full of corruption from the highest levels.

Don't get me wrong, the message is clear but the visuals are not. I am a Lutheran. Many in my family are Catholic. I came to the resolution that a church that devotes itself to a man who lived in "poverty" and was completely pacific, could ever have created a church that is so ornately endowed all over the world. I am attracted to the Lutheran Church because of the fact that Luther took it upon himself to disavow all the indulgences and other no-no's that the Church took part in at the time. It seems, to me at least, not much has changed.

I respect those who proclaim Christ as their Savior. I just wish people would practice what they preach. Is the Catholic Church inately evil? Absolutely not. If you are seeking a church, I suggest one of the Lutheran variety. While not perfect (Only one person ever was), it is a community of believers who do not show vanity in their beliefs, something the Catholics have made a point of doing in their long (sometimes proud, sometimes sickening) past

The question has been misunderstood as referring to people within the church when it is actually referring to the church as a shepherding organization via its official policies, and its past and present leadership of those it considers its flock.

I love this type of bigotry in disguise, call it by any other name, it still says the same thing. Study the history of the Bible itself. Who did you think put together the books of the Bible as we come to know them? How was the Bible preserved through the endless centuries? How did the Christian church exist for nearly 15 centuries before any of the churches of the Protestant sects develop out of the Reformation? The questions, and the facts to support them, are endless. But to a closed mind and to a religious bigot, that is always besides the point.

God, under any name, loves all people, and for the record, all nations too, not just Protestants in the United States.

P.S. I love that famous quote from Gandhi, I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians, because they are so unlike their Christ. Something to think about.

I think people have become so consumed in their religion and other peoples religion we've all forgotten the real reason why God put us here on this Earth! Not so that we could build walls of religion, but so that we could come together to win all the more! I'm so tired of hearing about this religion and that religion. Who cares about yours or anyone else's religion! There are hurting, dying people out there who need us "christians" to come together for them, but Satan has blinded us with all this religion stuff, so we've forgotten about the world we're supposed to be reaching! Comeon people! The return of Christ is obvioulsy soon!

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Originally Posted by Jesushelper76

MagProb,

You have some real issues. It is not with the church but yourself. All I have seen from you is judging groups of people because of some bad apples. Just because there are some bad apples does not make the whole bunch bad. I have been brought up as a Roman Catholic and have had no problems whatsoever. I do not agree with the abuse that has happened. It does not mean that it happens everywhere as that it is the way it is coming off from you.

There are teachers who sleep with their students, that is abuse. Does that mean all of the teachers are abusers?

Many people I have heard bring this up. On the news, the white man is usually involved in rape crimes. Black man are usually involved in Murder and shooting crimes. Okay does that make White Men mostly rapists and does that make black men mostly murderers? The answer is of course no. What you are doing is lumping everybody together in a body of church and for some reason you have Labelled the whole organizing evil. Do you think it is right for judgement like that on your part? No. What do I think about the abuse, the abuse is wrong and anybody that is found completely guilty without a doubt should be punished for their wrong doing, but then again there are others who are falsly accused as well, but people like you automatically feel that all is guilty which is a warped way of thinking of it.

P.S. My Wife and I had a very bad experiance with a young punk cop threatning us and punching the car. He was very bad, did not do anything wrong. He was a crooked cop. Does that make all Cops bad. The answer again is NO.

Joe

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It's very sad that groups are so negatively, not to mention falsely, stereotyped based on a few people's actions.