Mary was a sinful human, just like us. She was sinful while she carried Jesus. She was sinful after His birth. Mary was never without sin. Only Jesus was.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Mary was a sinful human, just like us. She was sinful while she carried Jesus. She was sinful after His birth. Mary was never without sin. Only Jesus was.

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Really now! Let's see the Lamb worthy of sacrifice was defiled at birth? Would you give up Christ for spite because you find the Catholic Church so objectionable?

To give you a bit more to think about, lets carry this theme to the Blessed Virgin Mary being Immaculate. If we consider the womb of Mary as a Tabernacle then we have to consider that Mary and the Tabernacle were ritually cleaned. The essence of original sin was removed from her. She was given a special grace (my words) removing every emotion, passion, and debilities inherent in original sin. She was made pure to receive the purest of lambs; just as the Tabernacle was ritually cleaned before it was consecrated. (Also see Genesis 3:15, Luke 1:28)


JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Really now! Let's see the Lamb worthy of sacrifice was defiled at birth? Would you give up Christ for spite because you find the Catholic Church so objectionable?

To give a bit more to think about, lets carry this theme to the Blessed Virgin Mary being Immaculate. If we consider the womb of Mary as a Tabernacle then we have to consider that Mary and the Tabernacle were ritually cleaned. The essence of original sin was removed from her. She was given a special grace (my words) removing every emotion, passion, and debilities inherent in original sin. She was made pure to receive the purest of lambs; just as the Tabernacle was ritually cleaned before it was consecrated. (Also see Genesis 3:15, Luke 1:28) JoeT

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Good grief! Nothing against Mary. She didn't have to be sinless for God to create a sinless Jesus. Mary wasn't immaculate. She was just like you and me. God did a miracle. I don't accept your Tabernacle thing. She was not given a special grace (why do we care about YOUR words in this?) and was not made pure. Miracle. Think miracle. Jesus had to be sinless in order to be the perfect sacrifice, but Mary had nothing to do with that.

How was Mary ritually cleaned? How was the essence of original sin removed from her?
When and how did she get cleansed?
Why would emotion, passion and debilities be removed from her when the Bible says that even Jesus came to experience what we experience in our human form (without sinning of course). It says he was tempted in every way known to man so you are claiming that Mary not only had no sin, but she also had no emotion or passion?

All she did was come from a special blood line AND submit her will to honoring and pleasing God.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Good grief! Nothing against Mary. She didn't have to be sinless for God to create a sinless Jesus. Mary wasn't immaculate. She was just like you and me. God did a miracle. I don't accept your Tabernacle thing. She was not given a special grace (why do we care about YOUR words in this?) and was not made pure. Miracle. Think miracle. Jesus had to be sinless in order to be the perfect sacrifice, but Mary had nothing to do with that.

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Yes she had to be sinless for Christ be compassed in her womb.

The Immaculate Conception-link refers to the birth of Mary. Tradition (small t) holds that it was at her birth that she became, as it were, protected from sin and cleansed of original sin.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes she had to be sinless for Christ be compassed in her womb.

The Immaculate Conception-link refers to the birth of Mary. Tradition (small t) holds that it was at her birth that she became, as it were, protected from sin and cleansed of original sin.

JoeT

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No, she didn't have to be sinless. That was the miracle, that God chosen a mortal woman as the mother of His Son. There is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that says Mary was sinless.

Mary was born sinful, and stayed that way all her life.

Find me a non-Catholic proof that I am wrong. You won't be able to.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

How was Mary ritually cleaned? How was the essence of original sin removed from her?
When and how did she get cleansed?
Why would emotion, passion and debilities be removed from her when the Bible says that even Jesus came to experience what we experience in our human form (without sinning of course). It says he was tempted in every way known to man so you are claiming that Mary not only had no sin, but she also had no emotion or passion?

All she did was come from a special blood line AND submit her will to honoring and pleasing God.

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The difference here is that she was “protected”. She didn’t resist temptation like you and I because of this protection. See my post



JoeT

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Find me a non-Catholic proof that I am wrong.

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Really now, a non-Catholic proof? The point is that regardless of the source, the proof would still be “Catholic”.

Nice try

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The difference here is that she was “protected”. She didn’t resist temptation like you and I because of this protection. See my post

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And do you have any scripture to validate this claim, or will you have no answer to this question also?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Really now, a non-Catholic proof? The point is that regardless of the source, the proof would still be “Catholic”.

Nice try

JoeT

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That seems a bit arrogant - to suggest that everything belongs to your denomination.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

The difference here is that she was “protected”. She didn’t resist temptation like you and I because of this protection. See my post

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That's not Biblical.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, she didn't have to be sinless. That was the miracle, that God chosen a mortal woman as the mother of His Son. There is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that says Mary was sinless.

Mary was born sinful, and stayed that way all her life.

Find me a non-Catholic proof that I am wrong. You won't be able to.

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Actually, Mary said that she had sinned, and was in need of a Saviour:

Luke 1:46-49
46 And Mary said:
"My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
NKJV

A person who has not sinned needs no Savior.
She refers to the lowly state that she is in.
She speaks of what He has done for her.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

That's not Biblical.

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You do remember Scripture and Tradition. Do you want me to trot out St. Agustine again?

JoeT.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

You do remember Scripture and Tradition. Do you want me to trot out St. Agustine again?

JoeT.

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Personally, I'd like to see you deal with some scripture rather than the opinions of men.

They can't do that our their traditions/doctrines would crumble!

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

They can't do that our their traditions/doctrines would crumble!!

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You are absolutely right. They cannot defend a bit of this from scripture.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

You do remember Scripture and Tradition. Do you want me to trot out St. Agustine again?

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So only Catholics believe Mary was sinless. And they believe that because of "tradition," not because the Bible says so.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

They can't do that our their traditions/doctrines would crumble!!

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Look, try reading the Old Testament. But this time remember that words mean things.

JoeT

... and?.
It will show you what wondergirl, tom and Peter are all saying

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Look, try reading the Old Testament. But this time remember that words mean things.

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So, depending on how one interpret Bible words, they get a certain meaning.