desidario,

Re: Your comment to my answer:

One's orientation drives one's attraction. If one is not oriented to desire something, one does not desire it. Scripture describes orientation as more than just desires but speaks of these as desires of your heart, what motivates/excites your innermost being.

As for attraction or orientation being a choice, you are now dealing with opinion. There is no scientific basis for stating that it is not a choice, but scripture does speak to this matter. Scripture tells us that certain desires of our hearts are sinful and need to be changed, for example:

Acts 8:21-22
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV

I did a study on this a number of years ago, and due to the amount that scripture has to say regarding our orientation, it would be different to go through it on a Q&A forum, but suffice it to say that God would not tell us to change our orientation and then make it impossible. Can homosexuals become heterosexual? Again, let's look to scripture for that answer:

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

So since we are speaking about the church, direction for what to do in this matter must be scripturally based.

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Originally Posted by Skell

Oh the intolerance.

Justifies why many don't belong to churches / groups who judge so ignorantly.

They have their own relationships.

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Greetings, the posted question has produced much interest on both sides of this matter and having done some research, I found the following websites that one should read thoroughly for a better understanding of this topic matter (don't just look at the links, see what they are actually saying). I do believe that when someone "comes out" to another, it is already painful for them to do so but to want to serve a Higher Calling that comes from God is truly not for our human judgment. Can you only imagine a person who is scorned, spat upon, whipped and beaten, discriminated, ridiculed, fired from their jobs, laughed at, picked on, ostracized by society, kicked out of the house, many times by their own parents just for being gay or lesbian, having the courage to reach out to another in their time of need and especially to still want to serve the Lord? I can only imagine that is very hard and if we are to truly "Love One Another" as Jesus said we should do, we should do so to literally everyone, without any reservations, since He never qualified His statement with " ... except for gays and lesbians ... ". Therefore, a friend should never be abandoned nor should his or her higher spiritual calling. Their pain should never be made worse by rubbing their wound with little misunderstood Biblical words that act as alcohol on their pain. Let's see what, in effect, scholars actually say about what those passages that seem to excoriate homosexuals are actually saying.

It is easy, I would imagine, for those who wish to belittle others to say that they should change, but can one really change something that science now says is not a matter of choice? It would be very difficult, in effect. The only "choice" I see here is a person's willful choice to be promiscuous. Promiscuity is never right for both heterosexuals or homosexuals in the eyes of God. That is what is truly sinful in His eyes. Therefore, people should be in a fully committed, loving relationship to avoid the temptation. However, people, in their humanity, are people with an apparent innate need and given desire for sexual expression. Few words, if any, can literally change that desire any more than yelling at a young person to not engage in sexual activity when their hormones are raging. Perhaps some would be stronger than others, but that unfortunately, would still not remove their basic biological need for the expression as all are inherently born with, with few exceptions let's face it. Therefore let's all follow Jesus' exemplary words, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Let's first work on removing heterosexual desire as in lusting or coveting a neighbor's spouse or another within our own community before we ask those of the gay or lesbian orientation to do the same. When we can successfully accomplish that task within our own, we can feel free to call ourselves "masters" of change and can feel free to point the finger at others who are of a different lifestyle and say to them that they are wrong in what they do.

The following websites should certainly peak the interest of everyone who has ever battled with this question and has searched for answers and has wanted to see what scholars, scientists and clergy have to say.

"The Six Bible Passages Used To Condemn Homosexuals", is MUST reading and also contains very interesting links at the bottom of the page. Six Bible Passages

Another page with great food for thought -- www.mccbath.org.uk -

United Methodists -- untiedmethodist.com: The Question I Am Most Often Asked By People Visiting My Church's Website -- Part One

For those more acclimated to higher learning, there is this website that should be read all the way through, especially to see what the American Psychological Assn. the AMA, the American Psychiatric Assn. and the National Assn. of Social Workers have to say about this important matter from a learned, professional standpoint: Did You Ever Wonder

Actually the studies quoted as saying that homosexuality is not a matter of choice have all been discredited - sloppy methodology.

The second point that I would like to address is that I find that people on both side4s of the issue try to make this sin some sort of special sin. In reality it isn't. The sin of homosexuality is no worse a sin than other sexual sins, or indeed other sins in general. Homosexuals should therefore not be treated worse than other people - Romans 3:23 says that we have all false short of the glory of God, and we are all sinners. Those who have received Christ as Saviour are sinner saved by grace, homosexuality or not.

That being said, I would not expect any more from a person in dealing with the sin of homosexuality than I would from a person who was involved in a sin of pornography, or hypersexuality - they are all sins, and for those who profess to be Christians, we called to submit our lives to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to work on us to change us, just as those in the church in Corinth were changed from their sinful ways, including homosexuality. Just because a sin may be hard to deal with is not a good reason scripturally to avoid dealing with it head on.

The saddest thing is that so many see the Word of God as hateful, instead of the love letter for living for God. He only wants His best for us, which is very often contrary to our flesh. If we will surrender our way of thinking to His was of things we will choose His will over ours every time.

According to what has been written, homosexuality is grounds to exclude him from leading a ministry, then a minister must be without sin to lead? If all sin is equal, where do you find perfection among not perfect humanity to lead? Even among the saved, are they deemed perfect, or without sin? How can they be more perfct than a celibate gay man, who gives his life to his God?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

That being said, I would not expect any more from a person in dealing with the sin of homosexuality than I would from a person who was involved in a sin of pornography, or hypersexuality - they are all sins, and for those who profess to be Christians, we called to submit our lives to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to work on us to change us, just as those in the church in Corinth were changed from their sinful ways, including homosexuality. Just because a sin may be hard to deal with is not a good reason scripturally to avoid dealing with it head on.

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Your speaking as if being a homosexual is souly a "choice". I am not gay but people I know that are, do not feel that it was a choice to be gay. They feel attracted to their same sex just like heterosexual people are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Its not like they can just wake up one morning and say, "I'm going to stop having feelings like I do for my boyfriend or girlfriend because its wrong in the eyes of God." Its not a choice you can just decide to stop doing. These people are not harming anyone by loving someone of the same sex. I'm sorry but I just can't understand how some christians see it as a choice unless they are the ones that believe the stuff in the bible. The bible was written by man centuries after Jesus's death. Don't you think their own views and ideas would be included in their writings? The fact that the bible was written by man is one of the main reasons I can't believe in it. Homosexuality was looked on in disgust back in those days because it was different from the norm. Don't you think that would reflect in some of the writings?

Exactly! No one, literally no person is without sin in this world. That much is known. In my opinion, those who are celibate and wish to serve the Lord should be allowed. However, there is inequity about that, inasmuch as some Protestant religions allow their ministers to marry, therefore, they are not celibate and can still serve the Lord. So, a dichotomy exists here.

The sad thing concerning gay people is that throughout history so many have been killed by those who felt somehow superior to them and used inept Biblical passages to try to justify their horrendous deeds. God does not allow murder according to His Sixth Commandment. But for those so-called murder-minded "Christians" (Actually they are without God. Remember The Inquisition?) presumably saying that they would do these things to gays, and I know many have heard the stomach-turning and chilling phrase "Kill a queer for Christ", they are trying to justify murder, perhaps as a way to try to prove or make others believe they themselves are not gay, when in effect, who knows? Or they might not be able to come to terms with it. Yet, they must realize that Jesus, in His Loving Compassion, never spoke about homosexuality nor condemned it in the Bible. He was silent about it. That much is known and we must remember that it is by His blood that we are Saved. However, some people with an agenda of hate will always try to justify their horrific acts through some other means and even try to tie their harmful behavior to other inappropriate passages but it falls short of the truth about our Loving Heavenly Father Jesus Christ who had a policy of inclusion of everyone. He even sat at the table with thieves.

In the case of Mary Magdalene (who later became a saint), a sinner whom Jesus had cast out seven devils, Jesus did not ask her to change her sexual orientation, which was obviously heterosexual, but rather to "go and sin no more", to quit living a promiscuous lifestyle. This is a lesson all should learn about trying to "change" a person from what he or she is or the orientation they are born with. So, quit being promiscuous and serve the Lord is His message and it applies to ALL. It worked in the case of Mary Magdalene! His message should also have applied to the Catholic Church and its priests but we all know how unfortunate that turned out as the matter has been widely publicized. Was it their innate biological desire that led them to do what they did? Was it simply turning their back from God? Some were even still serving in the clergy until caught. But we cannot judge these people. God does, in His own time, in His own way as is appropriate.

Will we ever know why those who choose to serve the Lord also have biological needs and desires as ordinary humans do? It is difficult to be chaste and still serve the Lord but with the allowance of marriage in the clergy, for some, and even raising a family (requiring a sexual act), especially when a priest cannot do so nor a nun, it is quite out of line to expect others of a different orientation to refrain from expressing a basic biological need. Equalize this mandate for ALL or for none in order to be equitable to all those who wish to serve the Lord.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

According to what has been written, homosexuality is grounds to exclude him from leading a ministry, then a minister must be without sin to lead? If all sin is equal, where do you find perfection among not perfect humanity to lead? Even among the saved, are they deemed perfect, or without sin? How can they be more perfct than a celibate gay man, who gives his life to his God?

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Just to note that my recent reply was to this posting.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

According to what has been written, homosexuality is grounds to exclude him from leading a ministry, then a minister must be without sin to lead? If all sin is equal, where do you find perfection among not perfect humanity to lead? Even among the saved, are they deemed perfect, or without sin? How can they be more perfct than a celibate gay man, who gives his life to his God?

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Good question. Let's put it in perspective. If a candidate to be a pastor for your church came up to the pulpit and said "I am a pedophile - I am sexually attracted to children and I cannot help it and there is nothing wrong with it". Would he be qualified to be a pastor in your opinion?

That is not the same as a candidate coming up and saying that he is a sinner saved by grace before God, and that he acknowledges his sin and has submitted himself to be changed by the Holy Spirit.

see the difference?

It is not a case that a man be without sin, but rather that the man be willing to acknowledge his sin and be willing to change. We all come to God as we are, sinners and thus a homosexual is a still a homosexual when he receives Christ, but a person who is truly save will seek to be chnaged from their sinful desires through the wotrk of the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by margarita_momma

Your speaking as if being a homosexual is souly a "choice". I am not gay but people I know that are, do not feel that it was a choice to be gay. They feel attracted to their same sex just like heterosexual people are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Its not like they can just wake up one morning and say, "I'm going to stop having feelings like I do for my boyfriend or girlfriend because its wrong in the eyes of God." Its not a choice you can just decide to stop doing. These people are not harming anyone by loving someone of the same sex. I'm sorry but I just can't understand how some christians see it as a choice unless they are the ones that believe the stuff in the bible. The bible was written by man centuries after Jesus's death. Don't you think their own views and ideas would be included in their writings? The fact that the bible was written by man is one of the main reasons I can't believe in it. Homosexuality was looked on in disgust back in those days because it was different from the norm. Don't you think that would reflect in some of the writings?

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First, there is no scientific basis for claiming that it is not a choice. The studies which did claim this have been long since discredited.

Second, scripture says that when a persons come to Christ, that change is possible:

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Notice that some in the church in Corinth were homosexuals before coming to Christ?

As for it being hard to change, no doubt it is. Scripture says that when Adam, sinned that we all were subjected to the sin nature, which is the orientation to sinful desires - of all types including homosexuality. Paul says that we are slaves to sin without Christ, but once we receive Christ as Saviour, we become slaves to righteousness and are no longer subject to being controlled by the sinful orientations.

Rom 6:11-14
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV

Lastly, there are a couple of organizations started by former homosexuals who were changed through Christ, therefore we have living evidence that it is possible. But the key is that the person must be willing to submit themselves to the Holy Spirit and to allow this change to take place. Some years back I had a similar discussion with a homosexual who said that he had accepted Christ, and told me that he had no choice and could not change. We discussed how he though about his homosexual orientation and he said that he "loved and embraced it". That being the case, he clearly had not come to the point where he was prepared to acknowledge it as sin and to submit to the changing power of the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

If a candidate to be a pastor for your church came up to the pulpit and said "I am a pedophile - I am sexually attracted to children and I cannot help it and there is nothing wrong with it". Would he be qualified to be a pastor in your opinion?

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But it happens. Many priests were pedophiles, they ruined thousands of lives and the church did nothing to stop it. See: Roman Catholic sex abuse cases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Being christian makes one no morally better that the next person. Divorces, rapes, murders, bestiality, drug abuse, spouse battering... these are in no less numbers among the religious community than among the non-religious.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

But it happens. Many priests were pedophiles, they ruined thousands of lives and the church did nothing to stop it. See: Roman Catholic sex abuse cases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Agreed. That is my point. It should not happen.

1 Tim 3:1-7
3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
NKJV

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Being christian makes one no morally better that the next person. Divorces, rapes, murders, bestiality, drug abuse, spouse battering... these are in no less numbers among the religious community than among the non-religious.

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First, let's be clear that there are two types of people called Christian - those who profess to be but are not and those who truly are Christian. Jesus spoke of the first category in this passage:

Matt 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
NKJV

Often people assume that if a person acts nice, does good works or in some cases performs signs and wonders, that they are automatically a Christian. This is not true. A Christian is a person who has received Jesus as Lord and Saviour (that is more than just saying the words). Frequently, when Christians are reported to have done these things, they are in the first category, but not always. Even those of us who are saved do fall from time to time and do things that we should not. That is unfortunate but true. Regardless, I think that whatever the point is of that comment, that it has strayed off topic.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Lastly, there are a couple of organizations started by former homosexuals who were changed through Christ, therefore we have living evidence that it is possible.

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This is called denial.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

First, let's be clear that there are two types of people called Christian - those who profess to be but are not and those who truly are Christian.

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That's always the fallback isn't: it someone does something that you deem unworthy then they were not a 'true' christian. That makes it real easy for you. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by margarita_momma

This is called denial.

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Interesting - is your judgment of these people based upon some valid evidence of substance that you can share with us, or is it because their experience does not agree with your belief?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That's always the fallback isn't: it someone does something that you deem unworthy then they were not a 'true' christian. That makes it real easy for you. :rolleyes:

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I did not say that. Read again before you pronounce judgment. Here is what I said (bold/underline added to clarify points that you apparently missed on the first read):

Often people assume that if a person acts nice, does good works or in some cases performs signs and wonders, that they are automatically a Christian. This is not true. A Christian is a person who has received Jesus as Lord and Saviour (that is more than just saying the words). Frequently, when Christians are reported to have done these things, they are in the first category, but not always. Even those of us who are saved do fall from time to time and do things that we should not. That is unfortunate but true. Regardless, I think that whatever the point is of that comment, that it has strayed off topic.

Now as I said, I believe that we should move on to address the question at hand.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Interesting - is your judgment of these people based upon some valid evidence of substance that you can share with us, or is it because their experience does not agree with your belief?

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I believe the people you are speaking of probably suppressed their feelings so they could be excepted by other Christians without fear of being called out as a sinner or because they are probably brainwashed by bible versus like a few people I know. Yes, that is souly my belief and opinion. ;)

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Originally Posted by margarita_momma

I believe the people you are speaking of probably surpressed their feelings so they could be excepted by other Christians without fear of being called out as a sinner or because they are probably brainwashed by bible versus like a few people I know. Yes, that is souly my belief and opinion. ;)

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Interesting. Why do you assume that what the people on one side "believe" to be true is absolute fact, where what the other side "believes" to be true is denial on their part. Why not a consistent approach on the manner in which you judge the beliefs of both sides?

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Interesting. Why do you assume that what the people on one side "believe" to be true is absolute fact, where what the other side "believes" to be true is denial on their part. Why not a consistent approach on the manner in which you judge the beliefs of both sides?

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Umm... because I am human and I have an opinion just as you do. That is all you are speaking as well. There is no scientific evidence that any of the stuff you are talking about happened and if it did happen, if it was legit. I speak my opinion even though I have no evidence to back it up, just as you speak about "your god" when you have no evidence to back it up.

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Originally Posted by margarita_momma

Umm...because I am human and I have an opinion just as you do. That is all you are speaking as well. There is no scientific evidence that any of the stuff you are talking about happened and if it did happen, if it was legit. I speak my opinion even though I have no evidence to back it up, just as you speak about "your god" when you have no evidence to back it up.

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I think that this is getting off topic because it seems that rather than the topic of the acceptability of a gay minister, you are arguing the validity of the evidence supporting the existence of God. This has been discussed in other threads and I do not feel that it is appropriate to raise that issue once again here. By the fact that we are discussing a matter of the church, the truth of God is assumed, otherwise the church would not exist. If you wish to discuss the evidence for God, then please feel free to engage the topic on one of those other threads.

As for your opinion, you are more than welcome to put forward your opinion. My point was that you were not being consistent on the way that you were judging the beliefs of others.