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You have made an accusation. I just want to know what you mean by it, or if you even know what you mean. But if it's going to make you angry, then just let it go.Quote:
That's the problem with this forum and the two of you. You are simply looking for an argument. I'd like to stay on subject. is that ok? Soon (as always) the two of you will go off half-blistered on an entirely different tangent.
@JL: I simply can't talk two different subjects to two different people.
Don't you understand? We have already made our choice... Adam and Eve made the choice for us.
What? You didn't get a say? Sin already made that choice for you. We were given a choice, we made our choice, and not to be given another choice.
A person might have to Woo God, it is all up to him now. It is God's choice who he wishes to spend all eternity with him in his World. God gave Man the Earth and everything in it. Man gave it over to sin and in turn death. Mans and his world are gonna die. Man can choose life. But it is the life of Christ that rules God's kingdom.
You can choose to shoot and kill your noisy neighbor. Or you can choose to sit down with him and discuss the situation. Two choices. You have the freedom, the free will, to choose one or the other. Or even think of a third or fourth choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Neither of you is making a appeal to Scripture.
Genesis 1-3Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
WG: Yes, you have Choice. God has no Choice!!!!
Those whom God chooses have no choice!
Take Mathew for instance; Jesus said; "come follow me." Do you actually think Mathew had a choice?
Why can you not see that free will was in effect before the fall. after the fall there is no more free will. we don't choose God, he chooses us.
The Human race had its chance and we lost it. We lost it All!
End of story.
JL, you missed the boat.
Ahhh...Walter is a Calvinist.
WG, just tossing a few chapters out there is not an appeal to scripture. You have to get more specific than that. Walter could appeal to a number of specific passages.
How did you find out ? Also, he's 23.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's where this free will discussion started from.Quote:
WG, just tossing a few chapters out there is not an appeal to scripture.
@WG: Jesus was not capable of sinning. If Jesus was to sin, we would never know it as sin, because he is God and the life of God. Who's going to call what God does sin? would you dare?!? The fact that you miss that is everything.
WG, this is what I mean by being specific.
Galatians 5:13. You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
Paul certainly indicates that the Galatians had free will to choose to either indulge the flesh in foolishness or serve each other in love.
John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Jesus here tells us that "anyone" can choose to do the will of God.
"Those whom God chooses have no choice!"Quote:
How did you find out ?
Jesus was true God and true man. Bring true man, He could choose to sin. And that's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us -- He never gave in to sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Satan even took Him into the wilderness and tempted Him (Matt. 4:1-11), hoping He would sin, but Jesus chose not to.
You are missing one key point. It was not Satan that led Jesus into the wilderness. It was only after Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit that he was led (by the Holy Spirit) into the wilderness to be tempted.Quote:
Satan even took Him into the wilderness
Yes he very well could have. But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit.Quote:
He could choose to sin.
Do you even know what you are saying?Quote:
That's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us -- He never gave in to sin.
I pray hevenly Father, that you open WG's mind so that she might see the truth and the light of your everlasting Grace...Amen.
Not exactly. Not for us...But for Sin itself. Otherwise what you are saying is; Humanity can overcome Sin by simply choosing not to give in to temptation. The fact of the matter is, that Jesus had to die in order for us to achieve final victory over sin. Jesus is teaching us how to die...he is not teaching us (so to speak) how to overcome sin, he has already done that, for us. Maybe he is teaching us how to become Christians.Quote:
Satan even took Him into the wilderness and tempted Him (Matt. 4:1-11), hoping He would sin, but Jesus chose not to.
And that's what gave Him the final victory over sin for us
The Temptation of Christ; Jesus defeated Sin (how...the Holy Scriptures)...The Word of God is true life and the word of Satan is death in sin. Proving that the Holy Scriptures are still intact and the exact representation of the body of Christ Jesus...unerring. Jesus is the living Word. And the Word became flesh. The Word of God is alive and well. Not Man nor Saten can come close to touching the Word of life (aka Bible/God). Did Satan Touch Jesus? I mean did Satan influence Jesus...The Word of God is untouchable...Sin can't touch it. The Bible is beyond error. You must believe that!
If the Bible is beyond error, then why is it you don't quote it? I'm sure you mean well, but your posts are along the lines of, "Thus sayeth Walter". At some point you must appeal to the Word. That is all that matters. What does the Bible teach us?
For instance, you posted, "Yes he very well could have (sinned). But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit." But how do you know that is true? Is it just your own opinion, or does the Bible teach that? And I'm not saying you're wrong, but it leaves us hanging since it is unsupported by Scripture. For all we know, perhaps you are thinking with your carnal mind.
This was said for the sake of argument. For WG's benefit. I Don't believe he had any Sin in him, So he was incapable of sinning (although he did have choice...choice, meaning; he truly knew what sin is and who it cames from.).Quote:
"Yes he very well could have (sinned).
Because Jesus had two natures, neither of which consisted sin (after his death might be a different story?). I know it is true because the Holy Spirit can not sin. And if that same Spirit dwells in you, it (not so much you. having less of you and more of Jesus) will be considered (by God) as if you have never sinned. We know we are sinners. We, now, know that one day heaven will be full of sinners. When that day (whence we are in heaven) comes it will be different. Different in the way that - we will know of sin but are no longer sinners, taking on the mind (likeness) Of God, as if we have never sinned. all sin, all thought of sin, the sin nature will be nonexistent. nobody will know any different than God himself. You will have never known of yourself as a sinner. It might be as simple as us knowing we were once darkness and God has brought the light into our lives... to praise his name for all eternity, for the light of life that Jesus (as in God) has brought into our lives. It's almost as if God added to himself. He is now friends with the darkness (hello darkness my old friend).Quote:
But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit.
The Bible mentions God as light, no darkness at all. But often times when God comes around, he is surrounded by darkness.
Darkness is as light to him. it seems that my Carnal mind might have gotten the better of me...I don't yet know for certain.
You are basically back to, "Thus sayeth Walter." Look at Peter's sermon in Acts 2. His appeal is to the Word. I would suggest you learn from Peter.Quote:
"Yes he very well could have (sinned). But not once he was filled with the Holy Spirit." But how do you know that is true? Is it just your own opinion, or does the Bible teach that?
@JL, I don't follow?
God promised a Massiah. It is written. What has been written is solid and true.
There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).
It's not as if Jesus entered the playing field and God had his fingers crossed, hoping Jesus would choose wisely. If You can think, all humanity as being of one Body...the body of Jesus. Without sin. Incapable of sin. "God prepared a body." in fact, I would go as far as to say all of creation is in one Body...one with God. In the body of God. It is as though God created himself. "His Word is higher than his name."
You do understand; all that we are living, all that is happening, all that is in time has already passed. It is done, finished. All those in Christ Jesus are on the other side, living with/in Jesus, praising God in/for eternity. God has spoken, "it is finished."
Jesus was fully God and fully man. As a human, He was exposed to temptations just as we are. He overcame them, then was able to understand and identify with our struggles.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Evrything posted below is just opinion at this point. You can post no scripture at all to support any of your ideas. And I'm not saying I disagree with it. I'm just saying there is no Scripture other than, "It is finished." And that general statement does not demonstrate the truth of virtually anything you said. "His word is higher than His name," is not a quote from the Bible. Even if it was, it certainly does not show that God created Himself. It's just throwing a supposed text out there in hopes that it might prove...something.Quote:
@JL, I don't follow?
To illustrate, you said God promised a Messiah. To support that, I could turn to Genesis 3:15. "I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head, and you will strike his heel."Quote:
God promised a Massiah. It is written. What has been written is solid and true.
There is no way Jesus would have turned to the dark side (as it were).
It's not as if Jesus entered the playing field and God had his fingers crossed, hoping Jesus would choose wisely. If You can think, all humanity as being of one Body...the body of Jesus. Without sin. Incapable of sin. "God prepared a body." in fact, I would go as far as to say all of creation is in one Body...one with God. In the body of God. It is as though God created himself. "His Word is higher than his name."
You do understand; all that we are living, all that is happening, all that is in time has already passed. It is done, finished. All those in Christ Jesus are on the other side, living with/in Jesus, praising God in/for eternity. God has spoken, "it is finished."
Or Isaiah 53. He was despised and rejected by men,a man of suffering who knew what sickness was.
He was like someone people turned away from;[b]
he was despised, and we didn’t value him.
4 Yet he himself bore our sicknesses,
and he carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced because of our rebellion,
crushed because of our iniquities;
punishment for our peace was on him,
and we are healed by his wounds.
6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for[c] the iniquity of us all.
Just be aware that if you post anything WG disagrees with, she will dismiss it as "cherry-picking". That's her prerogative, but it still lends a lot of strength to your argument.
That's NOT what cherry-picking is! It has nothing to do with disagreeing. I'm shocked at your post!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I know what cherry-picking is. I once posted about 40 passages which all showed a coming judgment from God. It probably included more than a hundred verses. Your simplistic solution was to dismiss that tidal wave of Scripture as cherry-picking, thus showing that you didn't know what the term meant, or (more likely in my view) that you were willing to use it to try to dismiss a very clearly taught doctrine of the Bible with which you disagreed. And with that you certainly should be shocked.
Sooooo, your definition of cherry-picking is....Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Cherry picking is when a person chooses a relative handful of textual examples which seem to support his/her assertion, but which present an understanding that does not agree with a great body of evidence which contradicts that idea. In other words, they are taken out of the greater context. Selecting dozens of examples can scarcely be referred to as "cherry picking". It is easy to refute that practice by simply appealing to many other passages which show a clearly different perspective.
That's not what cherry-picking is.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
@JL - I understand what you are getting at. You are really good at quoting Bible verses, what good has it done for WG? I could Quote Bible verses all day long (if I research and find. I know it is in there) and she still wouldn't believe. It is clear to me that WG doesn't believe the Bible is inerrant. As well as her belief that God is fallible.
It makes no sense. We understand Adam and Eve as having "free will" before the fall...that is perfectly clear. After the Fall there is no more "free will." Adam's "Free will" was spent....along with all of humanity's supposed free will. People ask (they don't understand) how did Adam ruin it for all of us. Or, I had no choice, I was born in sin. Yes, that is right. We have no choice being that Adam chose sin over life. To this day some people choose sin over life...how can that be? Well, I wasn't given a chance to choose, no you weren't, and neither was I. Salvation was for the Jew. Thank God for mercy, he provided for the gentile as well. Not that we chose him, but he chose to include us. Yes WG, we have a choice, we can choose either or, but it's not that simple (had Adam chosen wisely, it might have remained as simple as a choice between doing good or bad) anymore. Choosing only gets a person so far. Believing is the real clincher. It's not up to you. You don't have to choose. You're lost if you believe it comes down to [your] choice.
Most of what I say is adlib. It should be considered for cause. The premise is true though. God created the entire universe and everything in it, you don't think he knows Sin? Jesus knew sin the same as God (wholly and entirely). Do you actually think Jesus could ever want a taste of sin? It would have been impossible for Jesus to sin. He picked up sin held it in the palm of his hand and rendered it irrelevant. Sin is no longer an issue.
You two go off on your little tangent. I've said enough.
Bye for now.
Only Jesus knows.
You make me laugh. I've had over 50 more years of Bible study than you have -- Christian grade school, two Christian colleges, neighborhood Bible studies, Sunday School and Bible class (as a student and later as a teacher), plus being a PK. It's interesting to read what Bible-believers say about someone they don't like.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
And yes, Jesus could have sinned. After all, He was fully human as well as fully divine.
I'll put it to you in a different way; Could the Messiah have ever sinned - ["yes."] God promised a savior that was without sin, aka Messiah. Are you saying God is a liar? If God promised a savior without sin, that savior would be sinless, meaning it would have been impossible for Jesus, the messiah to sin. Or you might just think God makes promises and simply rolls the dice hoping somebody would come along, that he could use, and be faithful and not sin.Quote:
And yes, Jesus could have sinned. After all, He was fully human as well as fully God.
Who on here is not to like?Quote:
Somebody they don't like.
Sorry, but it is.Quote:
That's not what cherry-picking is.
Walter, I get your point about quoting the Bible not being persuasive with some people. I have just gotten into that habit for three reasons. 1. It's an appeal to the best source possible. 2. It does sway some people. 3. It helps me understand my own POV better.
Now, please do some Bible quoting to set waltero straight, especially regarding Post #147.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The phrase "even the stones would cry out" is a biblical reference from Luke 19:40. Jesus used this phrase to tell his disciples that if they were to keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out. By this expression, Jesus meant that it was impossible for it to be otherwise.
Don't you get it? If it is written then even the stones would cry out.
I'd ask A few questions, but I know WG doesn't answer questions being that she feels she'd be getting set up.
WG, Why would you consider my statement (having to do with your belief) to be directed toward hatred? You just stated that Jesus/God was subject to sin. and you have always claimed that man has interfered with Bible text. So why be bothered by such a statement?
You misunderstand that passage.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Ask away!Quote:
I'd ask A few questions, but I know WG doesn't answer questions being that she feels she'd be getting set up.
Hatred? I never said that.Quote:
WG, Why would you consider my statement (having to do with your belief) to be directed toward hatred?
Huh? I said "man has interfered with Bible text"?Quote:
You just stated that Jesus/God was subject to sin. and you have always claimed that man has interfered with Bible text. So why be bothered by such a statement?
Just about right.Quote:
I'd ask A few questions, but I know WG doesn't answer questions being that she feels she'd be getting set up.
Here's the post.Quote:
Now, please do some Bible quoting to set waltero straight, especially regarding Post #147.
That's actually quite a dilemma. Could the Son of God have sinned? I don't think so, but I've never really studied it.Quote:
I'll put it to you in a different way; Could the Messiah have ever sinned - ["yes."] God promised a savior that was without sin, aka Messiah. Are you saying God is a liar? If God promised a savior without sin, that savior would be sinless, meaning it would have been impossible for Jesus, the messiah to sin. Or you might just think God makes promises and simply rolls the dice hoping somebody would come along, that he could use, and be faithful and not sin.
Getting set up isn't the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Am watching the new cartoon on Fox, "Krapopolis". Will delve into this after the cartoon is over.Quote:
You picked this horse. Now you got to ride it.
I think it is. You see a danger in answering honestly and so you just avoid it.Quote:
Getting set up isn't the problem.
Not at all. I just get tired of being attacked every time I respond. I'm guessing it's because I'm female and "don't know my place".Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No reason to insult. Let's just put our heads together and stay on/discuss the topic.
No one is attacking you, but we do probe as we certainly should. You should as well. That's how discussions are done.Quote:
Not at all. I just get tired of being attacked every time I respond.
Or maybe it's because that on those occasions when you do answer, your answers warrant further questioning. Might add that you have no idea how tired we men get at having to read that kind of thinking.Quote:
I'm guessing it's because I'm female and "don't know my place".
No reason to insult? You mean like, "Like that peanut butter commercial, you're full of it like Ludacris is."Quote:
No reason to insult. Let's just put our heads together and stay on/discuss the topic.
The topic is shoved aside while I am put down, am scolded, am insulted.
Ludacrus is full of Jif.
Show me an example of when that has happened.
is it possible that it’s your reasoning and thinking that are being questioned?
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