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  • Dec 8, 2022, 05:45 PM
    jlisenbe
    That makes two of us.
  • Dec 8, 2022, 05:46 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Still waiting.

    Here are two, cherry-picked 'specially for you!:

    1 John 4:8 - Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
    1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
  • Dec 8, 2022, 05:55 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Why are you running from answering this question?

    when you read these words as written, how do they read to you?"No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."

    I answered it. Go back and look. Your reading tonight is worse than usual.

    Quote:

    Why are you running from answering this question?

    "So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is 'he'?"
    My answer was so good, it deserves repeating.

    "Before you crucify me for not answering your question as you always do, recall that I told you more than once that your questions are designed to find what you consider positions that you disagree with so that you can swoop down and throw your typical condemnatory spear at the person. We know you too well here, Jl."
  • Dec 8, 2022, 06:02 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Here are two, cherry-picked 'specially for you!:

    1 John 4:8 - Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
    1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

    Hard to believe in a discussion among Christians, one side promotes love, another side promotes hell, and a third side waits in the wings.

    I vote for love.
  • Dec 8, 2022, 06:03 PM
    jlisenbe
    Rambling evasions are not answers.
  • Dec 8, 2022, 07:20 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Here are two, cherry-picked 'specially for you!:

    1 John 4:8 - Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
    1 Peter 4:8 - Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
    To whom are they writing?
  • Dec 8, 2022, 07:23 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    To whom are they writing?

    They are writing to all who read the Bible. To us.
  • Dec 8, 2022, 07:25 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    I'm not saying anything. I'm mainly asking questions.
    Time to speak up, DW.
    Depends on what they know and don't know. I don't pretend to know how much light any other person has. I leave it to God, and pray that they come to know the incredible life that comes with Jesus. Everybody wants to make things either/or; either Jesus is about heaven and pie in the sky or he's about being loving here and caring for each other. Let me be as clear as I can: BOTH.

    I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?

    Quote:

    Wondergirl
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    To whom are they writing?
    They are writing to all who read the Bible. To us.
    Who is "us"?
  • Dec 8, 2022, 07:56 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Depends on what they know and don't know. I don't pretend to know how much light any other person has. I leave it to God, and pray that they come to know the incredible life that comes with Jesus.

    And that incredible life is based on, surrounded by, immersed in LOVE -- loving the other more than oneself.
    Quote:

    Everybody wants to make things either/or; either Jesus is about heaven and pie in the sky or he's about being loving here and caring for each other. Let me be as clear as I can: BOTH.
    I don't care about the pie (well, maybe if it's pumpkin pie). Spending eternity in heaven would be an indescribable joy, but my Savior has richly gifted me here on earth, has helped me through a number of personal trials and losses. Yes, heaven would be a gift.
    Quote:

    I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?
    I didn't want to spend the time and bandwidth to list EVERY tribe and nationality that has ever existed. God will sort us out.
    Quote:

    Who is "us"?
    Everyone who has ever existed.

    The "us" earlier was everyone who has read the Bible.
  • Dec 8, 2022, 09:54 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?

    I find it fascinating that you compare the Buddhists and Muslims with the other peoples mentioned and suggest these others were not nice people because they had human sacrifice. You even criticize fish-worshipers and ask whether "all those nice guys go to heaven".

    Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 05:11 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    suggest these others were not nice people because they had human sacrifice.
    Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Evidently you can conduct human sacrifices and still be "nice people". I guess there will be a particular corner in heaven where the human sacrifice folks go to revel in the good ole days!!

    The ideas expressed by Athos and WG are far closer to the theology of Islam than to Christianity.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 10:31 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Evidently you can conduct human sacrifices and still be "nice people". I guess there will be a particular corner in heaven where the human sacrifice folks go to revel in the good ole days!!

    Where would YOU put them?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 10:35 AM
    Athos
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Well, the cat's out of the bag now. Evidently you can conduct human sacrifices and still be "nice people". I guess there will be a particular corner in heaven where the human sacrifice folks go to revel in the good ole days!!

    The ideas expressed by Athos and WG are far closer to the theology of Islam than to Christianity.

    I see you've taken my name in vain again. ok.

    Your OT God sure approved of nice people doing human sacrifice. He even personally ordered one of his chosen people to do just that.

    And.............what cat is out of what bag?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 10:57 AM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    He even personally ordered one of his chosen people to do just that.
    Chapter and verse please.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 12:24 PM
    Wondergirl
    Wasn't Jesus a human sacrifice?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 01:20 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Who is "us"?
    Everyone who has ever existed.

    The "us" earlier was everyone who has read the Bible.
    That is bad exegesis. Both letters were written to believers, those who have already received Jesus and are part of His church. 1 Peter was written to a collection of churches, 1 John was written to the church of Ephesus to correct some gnostic heresies. The "us" is believers. The church. If you rip those verses out of those contexts, you do violence to the text.

    Quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    I find it fascinating that we want to talk about modern day Buddhists, Muslims etc. etc. but nobody wants to ask about the Mesoamericans who practiced human sacrifice, the Moabites who did the same, The Philistines who worshipped a fish, did all those nice guys go to heaven?
    I find it fascinating that you compare the Buddhists and Muslims with the other peoples mentioned and suggest these others were not nice people because they had human sacrifice. You even criticize fish-worshipers and ask whether "all those nice guys go to heaven".

    Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.
    That's where we differ.

    Quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Depends on what they know and don't know. I don't pretend to know how much light any other person has. I leave it to God, and pray that they come to know the incredible life that comes with Jesus.
    And that incredible life is based on, surrounded by, immersed in LOVE -- loving the other more than oneself.
    Hardly. That incredible life is based on the presence of Jesus in my life and the joy that comes with said presence. We talk all day long, I chatter at him like a trained monkey sometimes and he doesn't mind. Love for others grows out of that. We love, because he first loved us. Anyone who hasn't experienced that love has no idea what they're missing.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 01:39 PM
    Athos
    Quote:

    from Me (Athos)
    Here's your answer: Of course, they do. Anyone who leads a good life as described by WG goes to heaven. It doesn't matter what they believe. It only matters how they behave, and that the behavior is informed by a good conscience.


    drom DW
    That's where we differ.

    Kindly please explain the difference. I don't want to assume something that isn't true.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 02:00 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    That is bad exegesis. Both letters were written to believers, those who have already received Jesus and are part of His church. 1 Peter was written to a collection of churches, 1 John was written to the church of Ephesus to correct some gnostic heresies. The "us" is believers. The church. If you rip those verses out of those contexts, you do violence to the text.

    You definitely misunderstood my two different uses of "us".
  • Dec 9, 2022, 02:43 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    Wasn't Jesus a human sacrifice?
    Different situation. Jesus voluntarily sacrificed his own life. It hardly justifies a statement to the effect that nice people can engage in human sacrifice.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 02:54 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Different situation. Jesus voluntarily sacrificed his own life. It hardly justifies a statement to the effect that nice people can engage in human sacrifice.

    Not suicide?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 03:14 PM
    jlisenbe
    And again.

    "You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.

    A botanist discovers a beautiful new variety of orchid on an uninhabited island. She writes a lengthy desctiption of the flower with its many varied colors. She sends it to a friend who responds with how beautiful the blue flower must be. "How can you consider the flower to be blue?" the botanist writes back. "Didn't you read my description of the many colors?" "It's simple," replied her friend. "I love blue, so I just ignore your many statements describing the other colors."

    Reminds me of the approach to the Bible employed by some here.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 03:17 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Reminds me of the approach to the Bible employed by some here.

    If you only knew...
  • Dec 9, 2022, 03:38 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    If you only knew...
    I think unfortunately for you, I do. It's why you are so resistant to responding to simple, straightforward requests like these.

    "You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 03:46 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.

    My mind has been made up since I was three days old.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I think unfortunately for you, I do. It's why you are so resistant to responding to simple, straightforward requests like these.

    Resistant to your gotcha requests?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 04:35 PM
    jlisenbe
    Quote:

    My mind has been made up since I was three days old.
    So confident that you are afraid to express it here. Sad.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 04:37 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So confident that you are afraid to express it here. Sad.

    That makes absolutely no sense. Express what?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 04:39 PM
    jlisenbe
    "You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 05:02 PM
    Wondergirl
    I was born again when I received the gift of Holy Baptism at the age of three days, was raised by my parents in the Christian faith, have been richly blessed and embraced by God, and will spend eternity with my Savior, Jesus Christ. God and I have an ongoing conversation with my wonderful younger son popping in with encouragements for me. Want me to recite the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed or the Athanasian Creed?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:13 PM
    jlisenbe
    I don't think you will like those creeds. They're too similar to the Bible.

    Quote:

    Nicene Creed. "He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father, to judge the living and the dead."

    Apostle's Creed. "From thence he shall come to judge the quick (living) and the dead."

    Athanasian Creed. "Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

    "Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    "from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:17 PM
    Wondergirl
    And you know the origins and purposes of those creeds?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:24 PM
    jlisenbe
    You mean of the creeds you don't believe?
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:29 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You mean of the creeds you don't believe?

    Only God can judge, according to those creeds.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:31 PM
    jlisenbe
    They are clear that Jesus will judge. But at least you now agree that judgment will happen. Progress!!
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:32 PM
    Wondergirl
    ...according to those creeds, she said again, a bit louder.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:36 PM
    jlisenbe
    Read...the...text...more...slowly.

    I will quote much of the Athanasian Creed for your benefit. The subject, as in all three passages I posted for you, is clearly Jesus.

    For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:44 PM
    Wondergirl
    Give it up, JL. You knoweth not what you do.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:48 PM
    jlisenbe
    I knoweth how to read. You should try it. It is much better than playing fast and loose with the truth as you are doing now.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 07:53 PM
    jlisenbe
    And then, of course, there is still this.


    "You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 08:28 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    And then, of course, there is still this.


    "You say you've read it (the John 3 passage), but you have not accepted and loved and believed it. Do that first, and then we can talk more."

    Or you can choose to reject it, but you need to make up your mind before we can continue.

    Good grief!!! You are obsessed -- or possessed!

    No matter what I say, you find fault with it.
  • Dec 9, 2022, 09:06 PM
    jlisenbe
    The problem does not lie with what you've said in response to that inquiry. The problem is with your non-response, a fearful withholding of a decision. Why is that?

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