 |
WG: Do you want to know how much time will be spent singing in the heavenly choir? In heaven, it will be always Now. No measurement of time passing.
JL: So frequently it's the conditional, "answerless" answer.
The answer? We dont know how much time will be spent singing in the heavenly choir. I hate to sing, so I will joyfully volunteer for something else on Cloud 9.
Fair enough. I'd even agree with that. It's why, however, I asked, "So how much singing do you think will take place?"Quote:
The answer? We dont know how much time will be spent singing in the heavenly choir.
No one will hate singing in heaven. It will be a supreme joy above joys.Quote:
I hate to sing, so I will joyfully volunteer for something else on Cloud 9.
My understanding of heaven is that it will be a perfect Earth with life much as we know it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
My singing will be done privately in my spiritual shower.Quote:
No one will hate singing in heaven. It will be a supreme joy above joys.
Life will not be like it is now. It will be far, far better and far more glorious, and the great difference maker will be to be in God's presence unhindered. As Paul said, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I [d]cannot tell. 23 [e]For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better."Quote:
My understanding of heaven is that it will be a perfect Earth with life much as we know it now.
By a perfect Earth, I mean the landscapes -- lakes, oceans, mountains, prairies, forests -- that we enjoy now plus the wild animals that will all be tame. No disease, death, trash thrown around. AND we humans will all enjoy each other's company.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
My only concern is the complete absence in your description of what will make heaven truly glorious.
The presence of our glorious God among us, making our new home far more wonderful than anything we can ever imagine! Heaven will be the MOST Glorious, MOST wonderful, most COMPLETELY perfect, and MOST beautiful place beyond our most vivid imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Amen, Wondergirl.
We know that there will be no Oceans. Some Scholars understand it as there being no animals Either. I'm not sure we will even notice or think about the Earth. it will be a new heaven and new Earth. we will not remember anything of the old. Nothing will even resemble anything similar (except Jesus).Quote:
By a perfect Earth, I mean the landscapes -- lakes, oceans, mountains, prairies, forests -- that we enjoy now plus the wild animals that will all be tame.
To throw something at you; might have something to do with this perfection bit. - Will Jesus be Judged and who will be his Judge?
Something I want to ask WG; Why was the tree in the Garden? Does it have anything to do with free will? Before you start - you know what tree I'm talking about.
This is true, but it is not true in the way that you think. In other words; you are saying it but you don't understand what you are actually saying. I can tell you my take on it. I'd like to hear it (if you could kindly elaborate) from you, first. I see you as a pretender...that's why I don't want to try and explain...telling you before I know what it is you don't know before you now know what I already know. That which you should already know, but you don't know.Quote:
With life much as we know it now.
The Christmas tree? Oh, you mean the tree that Adam and Eve picked the fruit from and ate? Please tell me its name. The apple tree? Granny Smith or maybe Red Delicious?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Okay, just shut it. you're on my ignore list.Quote:
The Christmas tree? Oh, you mean the tree that Adam and Eve picked the fruit from and ate? Please tell me its name.
That's what you do, there is nothing straight about you. you are off kilter!
I try to listen and understand. I believe JL makes an effort. You have it already figured out. That being the case, there is no use in speaking with you.
Like I said earlier - The Church doesn't know who God is and we don't know who we are...But WG knows all. You go ahead and believe you can live the life that you are living now the same as if you were living in heaven.Quote:
With life much as we know it now.
Bible stories don't have it be as dry as dust; they can be fun too. Lighten up, waltero!Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Do you really know the correct name of that tree? You called it something else in Post #80. It makes a big difference if a certain two words are missing from the name.
By the way, that story is an allegory.
Pure speculation masquerading as fact.Quote:
By the way, that story is an allegory.
It is very difficult to ever get a simple, straight answer from WG. Not real sure why, but it does seem to be the case.Quote:
The Christmas tree? Oh, you mean the tree that Adam and Eve picked the fruit from and ate? Please tell me its name. The apple tree? Granny Smith or maybe Red Delicious?
By the way, that story is an allegory.
Pure speculation masquerading as fact.
Oh, c'mon! The Hebrew OT writers were excellent storytellers and poets. Allegories, proverbs, psalms (aka songs) were their unique ways of expressing God's truths.
Because I am not a pedant.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's true, but it certainly does not render the entire OT as a giant allegory.Quote:
Oh, c'mon! The Hebrew OT writers were excellent storytellers and poets. Allegories, proverbs, psalms (aka songs) were their unique ways of expressing God's truths.
What is your standard for deciding when a passage should be considered non-literal? Note to reader. This question will almost certainly not be answered.
"Dodger" describes you well, I think.Quote:
Because I am not a pedant.
According to the allegory, God created a beautiful Garden, then created Adam and Eve to live there and enjoy it. There was no need for free will; there was nothing negative, no evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
As a test for Adam and Eve, God placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of the Garden and told Adam and Eve, "Don't touch this particular tree! If you do, you'll die" -- whatever THAT means since death didn't exist yet! (This is a test sort of like Mom putting a pan of freshly-baked and still hot brownies on the kitchen table to cool and telling her kids, "Don't touch! If I see any missing, I will punish you severely.")
Did I say the OT is "a giant allegory"? No! I said, "Allegories, proverbs, psalms (aka songs) were their unique ways of expressing God's truths."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
They also recorded their own history in very visual language.
What is an allegory: A story is constructed in such a way as to convey a central theme or moral lesson. Characters' names decipher their literary purpose: Adam = man from the earth ; Eve = mother of all the living. Thus, an allegory is a symbolic literary device to explain abstract ideas beyond the story itself.Quote:
What is your standard for deciding when a passage should be considered non-literal? Note to reader. This question will almost certainly not be answered.
Here's an OT poem, Psalm 114 (KJV). Do you understand it as literal?
1When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language;2Judah was his sanctuary, and Israel his dominion.3The sea saw it, and fled: Jordan was driven back.4The mountains skipped like rams, and the little hills like lambs.5What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?6Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams; and ye little hills, like lambs?7Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob;8Which turned the rock into a standing water, the flint into a fountain of waters.
Yep. A dodger for sure. When asked, "What is your standard for deciding when a passage should be considered non-literal?", you respond with a long definition of what an allegory is. But that was not the question, was it?
To decide that Genesis 3 is an allegory, you must employ a standard for deciding when a passage should be taken as an allegory as opposed to being strictly literal. I'd still like to know what your standard is. I know that will not be forthcoming, and perhaps you don't know that yourself, but I'd still like to know.
To complicate matters, a passage can be BOTH literal AND allegorical. Perhaps you are appealing to that interpretation.
No dodge. The description of an allegory matches the elements in Genesis 3. Otherwise, I have no idea what you mean by "standard".Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
We'll find out in heaven if it was literal. Meanwhile, I'll learn a moral lesson from the allegory.
I didn't suggest you did.Quote:
Did I say the OT is "a giant allegory"? No!
Everyone employs a standard as to when to take a passage literally versus when to regard it as strictly figurative. What is your standard?Quote:
The description of an allegory matches the elements in Genesis 3. Otherwise, I have no idea what you mean by "standard".
Do you know that story is literal? If so, what is your standard?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The return of the dodger.
At any rate, since you dare not answer the question, I'll give you what I use which is what most people use. The passage should be taken literally unless there is a compelling reason not to. Just bear in mind that "literal" and "allegorical" are not mutually exclusive.
Actually, I'm a Sox (not Dodger) fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I agree that the story may also be literal. Like I said earlier, we'll find out in heaven. Its real value lies in its being an allegory. To repeat myself:
"We'll find out in heaven if it was literal. Meanwhile, I'll learn a moral lesson from the allegory."
Not sure I agree with that, but it's OK. See how easy this was once one of us (me) decided to say something definite?Quote:
Its real value lies in its being an allegory.
Oh, JL, you are such a teacher! A mentor!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I'm happy to be of help to you.
Do we need to separate you two again??
This is what happens when the thread starter leaves the room. At least JL and I are playing nice (for now).Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Very true. We have even managed to agree on two or three items. That probably means the end of time is just about here.Quote:
At least JL and I are playing nice (for now).
Here, if proof were wanted, we have evidence that all that passed in the Temptation was in the region of which the spirit, and not the senses, takes cognizance.Quote:
“And the devil (he describes only his vision, having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority) took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world
Why would you think Jesus should (verbally?) Contradict him?Quote:
Except Jesus didn't contradict him.
There is no attribute so essential to God as this. It is for his holiness, more than for anything else, that his creatures worship him.Quote:
He only addressed the question of worship.
The whole earth is full of God's glory." Men, whether they will it or not, are working out God's purposes, advancing his designs, accomplishing the ends that he desires.Quote:
The whole "look around you" misses the question. It's not "what's going on," it's "who is the actual authority over this world and the nations that muck it up?"
Colossians 2:20 "If you died with Christ to the elements of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world?
People, in America, Talk about being a Christain Country. When did a Christian country, Christain Kingdom, or Christian State, enter into the picture? Sorry, there is no such thing as a Christain Country/Kingdom (other than the Church/Kingdom of Heaven), It's about the Church, It has always been about the Church. I really don't think Politics should be brought up in the Church. We belong to the Kingdom of Heaven, we can not belong to Both.
Jesus has nothing doing with this. His sight is set on High (So should we). Jesus talks about the people of this world coming to him...He says; I don't know where you come from. Satan shows Jesus something, what does Jesus care (much less know) about something that is not of God?Quote:
Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth and they're his to give to whomever he chooses.
Having one's thought pattern derive from the Greeks as opposed to???Quote:
Today's Greek reading brought me to something
Let the Word Live to us oh LordQuote:
Are you referring to the process of organizing thoughts and ideas within some established framework?
He did?Quote:
He says; I don't know where you come from.
He's just talking about reading the NT in the original Greek language. It doesn't concern a thought pattern.Quote:
Having one's thought pattern derive from the Greeks as opposed to???
It does happen eventually. "Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.'"
Luke 13:27Quote:
He says; I don't know where you come from.
He did?
Is there Nothing more to it?Quote:
Today's Greek reading brought me to something
He's just talking about reading the NT in the original Greek language.
Where exactly are you trying to go with this? Yes, I'm sure this is Talking about America or any other "one" Kingdom of the World pffft!Quote:
It does happen eventually. "Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."
We all belong to the Kingdoms of this World, there is no getting away from it. Humble ourselves before the Lord, for the sake of his (not for our sake) Great mercy...it's the only way. Otherwise, we might reap the whirlwind that is coming against the Kingdoms of the Earth.
Luke 13 passage in context. "And he said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God."
Not really sure what your point is in relationship to the Kingdom of God.
Well...no.Quote:
Is there Nothing more to it?
I'm not trying to do anything other than point out that the kingdom of this world will belong to God in the end. It is very clear. Not real sure how you saw America in that passage. I certainly didn't other than we are very much a part of this worldly kingdom. Or at least it sure seems that way to me.Quote:
Where exactly are you trying to go with this? Yes, I'm sure this is Talking about America or any other "one" Kingdom of the World pffft!
Wasnt referring to the Kingdom of God.Quote:
Not really sure what your point is in relationship to the Kingdom of God.
Satan says HE has authority over the nations/kingdoms of the Earth
Reading the Bible vs having a greek read it to you?Quote:
Well...no
Another time, another Kingdom, Another World.Quote:
I'm not trying to do anything other than point out that the kingdom of this world will belong to God in the end.
When you read the Bible in English, you are reading a translation from the Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT). So to read in the Greek actually puts a person closer to the original text.Quote:
Reading the Bible vs having a greek read it to you?
Closer to a proper understanding...closer to God? It might in many ways be a hindrance...The process of organizing thoughts and ideas within some established framework (“Greek philosophy”)?Quote:
So to read in the Greek actually puts a person closer to the original text.
dwashbur, once mentioned - "Than would make my lifes work meaningless." I'm still trying to wrap my head around that? Something seems amiss. We don't work, a Christian lives the life. it is who we are. It is the will of the Heart.
Jesus is the message we can't receive the message without receiving the messenger. Greek has nothing to do with it.
As far as "who is in Charge." Whomever you want Brother.
I know from three years of studying and translating Latin and from knowing German as my ancestral language that translations of any language into English (or any other language) is fraught with incorrect understandings of words and phrases. That can also be true of Hebrew and Greek in the two testaments.
Thus, the best idea is to read the testaments in the original languages, Hebrew and Greek.
So the original authors of the New Testament books were all believers in Greek philosophy? After all, they're the ones who wrote IN GREEK. Are they guilty? Come on, Walter. You're tilting at windmills.Quote:
Closer to a proper understanding...closer to God? It might in many ways be a hindrance...The process of organizing thoughts and ideas within some established framework (“Greek philosophy”)?
That's why teams of experts are used in Biblical translations.Quote:
translations of any language into English (or any other language) is fraught with incorrect understandings of words and phrases.
Or if those experts have an agenda to promote.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:12 PM. |