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an example of a wife submitting to her husband, what would you say?
Submit:
Accept or yield to a superior force or to the authority or will of another person.
Wouldst thou that thy wife should obey thee as the church doth Christ. Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Maybe you should forget everything you have learned, Everything you think you know about life, God, and the Bible.
Clear your mind and start afresh. Pray that God reveals himself to you.
A real-life EXAMPLE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
An example is: George asked his wife Susan to bake oatmeal raisin cookies. She baked them that afternoon and thereby submitted to George.
I certainly hope I am wrong. I see no reason to believe otherwise, but perhaps you will surprise me. I do wish you well.
What exactly are my "liberal views"?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Liberal is bad; conservative is good?
You are a well-educated, accomplished woman, and yet you claim to need examples to understand what the widely known word "submit" means. It all gets old and tiresome. You believe the Bible unless, of course, it disagrees with you, and then you don't believe it unless asked when, again, you claim to believe it. And on and on it goes.
A day is coming, dear WG, when every mouth will be stopped.
Your speaking Of A life I No Longer Subscribe To.Quote:
A real-life EXAMPLE!!!
This can not be done outside the Gospel of life.
In Genesis 3 we have the record. The serpent comes and deceives Eve, and she listens to the serpent rather than listens to Adam. Adam in turn listens to Eve instead of fulfilling his responsibility to lead Eve, and neither of the two of them listen to God. And the result is disastrous. It’s disastrous.
So God says, “Here’s how it’s gonna go from here, folks. Let me tell you how this will work.” To the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing. There would have been no pain in childbearing. There would have been no reason for any kind of anesthetic help. There would be no epidurals. No. No, no, no. In pain you shall bring forth your children. It’s one of the implications of the fall of man. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband. Instead of desiring to submit to your husband, you’ll just try and assert your leadership over your husband. That’s how it’ll go. “But he will rule over you.” Whether that means he will rule over you the way that he should or he will rule over you in a desire to dominate you according to his own desire, I’m not certain. I think probably the latter rather than the former. Here is where the Bible comes into play.
We can think about our world in terms of the good, the bad, the new, and the perfect. Good, bad, new, perfect. Good: God’s creation. Perfect, absolutely good. Bad: the fall of man, rebellion against God. The new, when Genesis 3:15 is fulfilled in Jesus: “The offspring will bruise his heel and he will crush his head.”
In other words, in Jesus we have a second Adam. The first Adam disobeyed, rebelled, created chaos. Christ comes as a second Adam, and he obeys where Adam fails. He takes the judgment that Adam deserved. So that what, as a result of the fall, is distorted and broken, the Lord Jesus then renews and repairs. So that Christian marriage, according to the pattern and plan of God, is only possible in Christ.
It’s not possible to even approximate to this, because by nature, I don’t want to love my wife the way Christ loved the church. That’s going to take a tremendous amount of effort, and a lot of other stuff too. And you don’t want to submit to your husbands. Goodness gracious!
So why would we do it? Well, because God says we would do it. Well, how would we do it? “Holy Spirit, breath of God, breathe your life into my miserable little existence. Fashion me according to your purposes. Make it possible for me, in my marriage, to give something of at least a flashlight in the darkness through all the bits and pieces—through the times of success and failure, the disappointments, the bad parts of the journey, the times when we’ve almost ruined it completely, but here we are, we’re still alive, we’re still here. And we’re saying, ‘Lord Jesus Christ, help me now. I don’t know how much longer we’ve got left in this amazing experiment of marriage down here. But help me then to do what your Word says.’
Can’t make it any clearer than that Walter. Well done.
You totally misunderstand my request for an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Like this:
Susan has a high-paying job and wants to buy a 2021 Kia Seltos. Jim, her husband, wants her to buy a 2021 Ford F-150 (guess why!). Susan submits to him and buys what he wants her to buy. Or, Jim becomes a vegan and tells Susan she must prepare only vegan dishes for both of them. Susan is not at all fond of vegan food, but submits to Jim.
His post was as clear as mud and not at all what I asked for.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
And on, and on and on!Quote:
You are a well-educated, accomplished woman, and yet you claim to need examples to understand what the widely known word "submit" means. It all gets old and tiresome. You believe the Bible unless, of course, it disagrees with you, and then you don't believe it unless asked when, again, you claim to believe it. And on and on it goes.
Why don't you ask yourself? It appears as if you have not a clue!Quote:
not at all what I asked for.
You can follow that sinful nature or you can give it up and follow Jesus. You have free will (which you continually point out).
Submit to Jesus is Voluntary.
In other words, you guys have absolutely NO idea what the word "submit" means in Bible terms. You're just saying the word over and over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
It has nothing to do with following anyone's sinful nature!!!Quote:
Why don't you ask yourself? It appears as if you have not a clue!
You can follow that sinful nature or you can give it up and follow Jesus.
How does a wife show with her deeds that she submits to her husband?
Submit = obey.
Knowing even now that this will do no good whatsoever for someone who cares not one whit about the meaning of "submit", I put this forward just so I can say I did. In the unlikely event you really would like to know, there is ample material below.
The Meaning of Hupotasso (Submission)
Hupotassō is the Greek word from which we get the terms relating to submission in marriage. In the New Testament it usually appears as submit, subject, or submissive. The definition from two Greek dictionaries is given below.
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
hupotassō G5293
to subordinate; reflexively to obey: – be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
Thayer’s Greek Definitions
hupotassō G5293
1) to arrange under, to subordinate 2) to subject, put in subjection 3) to subject one’s self, obey 4) to submit to one’s control 5) to yield to one’s admonition or advice 6) to obey, be subject
Strong's #5293: hupotasso (pronounced hoop-ot-as'-so)from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:̔́hupotassō1) to arrange under, to subordinate2) to subject, put in subjection3) to subject one' s self, obey4) to submit to one' s control5) to yield to one' s admonition or advice6) to obey, be subjectPart of Speech: verbRelation: from G5259 and G5021Citing in TDNT: 8:39, 1156
Usage:This word is used 40 times:Luke 2:51: "Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother"
Luke 10:17: "even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."
Luke 10:20: "that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice,"
Romans 8:7: "against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,"
Romans 8:20: "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but"
Romans 8:20: "willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"
Romans 10:3: "their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
Romans 13:1: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no"
Romans 13:5: "Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but"
1 Corinthians 14:32: "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."
1 Corinthians 14:34: "unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the"
1 Corinthians 15:27: "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when"
1 Corinthians 15:27: "when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,"
1 Corinthians 15:27: "are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."
1 Corinthians 15:28: "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son"
1 Corinthians 15:28: "Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that"
1 Corinthians 15:28: "also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God"
1 Corinthians 16:16: "That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with"
Ephesians 1:22: "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave"
Ephesians 5:21: " Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God."
Ephesians 5:22: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
Ephesians 5:24: "as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives"
Philippians 3:21: "he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
Colossians 3:18: "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."
Titus 2:5: "chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the"
Titus 2:9: "Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all"
Titus 3:1: "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be"
Hebrews 2:5: "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof"
Hebrews 2:8: " Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under"
Hebrews 2:8: "under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left"
Hebrews 2:8: "But now we see not yet all things put under him."
Hebrews 12:9: "shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and"
James 4:7: " Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee"
1 Peter 2:13: " Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake:"
1 Peter 2:18: "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only"
1 Peter 3:1: "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not"
1 Peter 3:5: "God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"
1 Peter 3:22: "authorities and powers being made subject unto him."
1 Peter 5:5: "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another,"
1 Peter 5:5: "unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility:"
All that and no real-life examples. (Yes, I too can google and find all the same nothingness you did, JL.)
Real-life examples:
Darlynn wants a baby. Matt says no. Darlynn submits to her husband's wishes and no longer asks.
Huey wants sex every Saturday morning at 9:30. Ingrid finds activities for their kids to do unsupervised during the time needed. Ingrid submits to her husband's wishes.
Except you didn't. Why? Because you don't care, and because you probably can't look up NT Greek words.
What you posted, JL, DID NOT AT ALL answer my plea to provide real-life examples. You simply defined the word and parroted others regarding the word "submit". PLUS, you threw in insults.
let’s be clear: when the Bible talks about submission, it has nothing to do with ability. It’s not about ability. It is about order. It’s about God’s order.Quote:
How does a wife show with her deeds that she submits to her husband?
unless we believe in the absolute authority and infallibility of the Bible, there is no basis for us to propound these truths, to believe them, and to live in the light of them. The whole issue of submission, and therefore of authority, is very, very clear in the Bible (real-life). And so we start from the premise that the Bible is the Word of God. our identity as men and women is not tied to whether we’re in a relationship or not. Our identity is not in relationship to whether we are married or we are single. Our identity is, first of all, as made in the image of God, and then, secondly, as redeemed by the grace of God—those of us who are in Christ. And we also tried to make sure that we understand that this whole section, as Paul says, is about Christ and the church.Quote:
A real-life EXAMPLE!!!
I'm not talking about her ability; I'm asking for examples of behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
So how would you know a woman is submissive?
what we’re dealing with when we talk in terms of this submission is, if you like, the kind of submission that is my hand to my head. It’s imperative that my hand is in submission to my head. In fact, if this starts to go, it may be an indication of convulsions, it could be a case of some kind of atrophy, whatever it might be—something is broken, something is wrong. There’s no sense in which it is a matter of inferiority; it is the order of things.
You're very frisky -- hopping, skipping, and jumping over my question -- How would you know a woman is submissive?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Ah, I just found an answer! She's a Stepford wife, from the novel by Ira Levin -- a term used to describe a servile, compliant, submissive, spineless wife who happily does her husband's bidding and serves his every whim dutifully.
Unless we believe in the absolute authority and infallibility of the Bible, there is no basis for us to propound these truths, to believe them, and to live in the light of them.(I knew you had it in you)Quote:
Ah, I just found an answer! She's a Stepford wife, from the novel by Ira Levin -- a term used to describe a servile, compliant, submissive, spineless wife who happily does her husband's bidding and serves his every whim dutifully.
I'm glad you found the example you were looking for. you still owe yourself two more, change the channel and you will know the real-life answers to your question.
This is right on!
I will re-post it (provided WG is done refuting God's Word?)...Don't want Athos missing out.
Athos-Quote:
Originally posted by:InfoJunkie4Life
Regarding the rest of your comments, skipping the useless responses:
Its not so easy to dismiss my point. You have stated that disallowing women from pastoral office is misogynistic, and that misogyny is connected to violence.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Like Jl, you're playing with semantics and missing the point.
If you're trying to imply that the unequal access to the pastoral office is misogynistic, then my statement stands. If you're trying to discuss why or why not women should be allowed, then refute the commandment on the grounds of biblical authority, scientific fact, or some other relevant domain.
This is precisely my point, that prejudice is never justified, but discrimination is. Semantics matter.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Note the use of MURDER. Murder, by definition, is never justified or accidental or in war.
You must first demonstrate where the bible shows a hatred and dislike of women to even accuse misogyny.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
That does NOT absolve misogyny. You're confused about justifying one because of another.
I believe you are equating discrimination with prejudice. One is the action, the other is the intent. 2 separate domains.
Read through the Wikipedia page regarding Legal Rights of Women. You will see that the Jews treated their women better than nearly all ancient cultures, and most pre-modern cultures. The main exception would be Egypt. They seem to have a pretty accepting view of women in their laws. I might point out that their laws are strikingly similar to much of Israeli law. Maybe one affected the other?Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
"Unseen in the rest of the world". Hmmm, I suppose you can support that statement?
That's the point. The Mosaic law had good intentions, thus was not misogynistic.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
You're hung up on intent. Misogyny is never well-intentioned, otherwise it would be called something else.
The idea was called many things prior to Augustine...they have been discussed for at least 200 years prior to Augustine; given apocryphal sources, it has been an idea in discussion for 200 years prior to that. There are even some obscure sources in Talmudic tradition that discuss these ideas 500+ years prior to the apocryphal sources. You can use any sources you like, as long as you use sources. I provide them when I can, and try very hard to support my arguments with full context and evidences.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Not exactly, what I said was: He was the first to PROMOTE the idea. But ok.
No, what followed, was several quotes from Christ stating that the scriptures were as real to Him as an encyclopedia is to us. You reading more into these verses is on you. You cannot say He played along to teach a moral lesson when He says ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” He either is speaking established fact, was a liar or was crazy. There is no middle ground.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
What follows are several Bible verses that A) prove I'm evil, B) prove all Info's claims, and B) prove I'll go to hell.
In that case your prior point is moot. Allowing misogyny is a feature of freedom. In order to have the ability to think freely, one must allow the possibility of misogyny. What you're saying now is that the patriarchy allows misogyny while before you were saying this is why misogyny exists in that society. You even went on to explain that because of the reasoning of the patriarchs, misogyny is "such a deeply rooted part of that society."Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
Nobody said it MEANT misogyny. What it does is allow misogyny.
That, again, is my point. You use your minds without examining evidences and arguments regarding the topic of debate. You mischaracterize and debase original texts to support the ideas in your minds. You ignore historical fact and common wisdom to support the ideas in your minds. You should learn with the intent of enriching your mind. Your mind is not the mechanism in which to discover the world around you, but rather the world around you should be the fertile ground in which your mind is allowed to reason and to strengthen belief and virtue.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by Athos
We both use our minds.
How has WG refuted God's Word?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You have no sense of humor -- nor do you recognize irony when you read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
An example is:Quote:
His post was as clear as mud and not at all what I asked for.
1) George asked his wife Susan to bake oatmeal raisin cookies. She baked them that afternoon and thereby submitted to George.
2) Susan has a high-paying job and wants to buy a 2021 Kia Seltos. Jim, her husband, wants her to buy a 2021 Ford F-150 (guess why!). Susan submits to him and buys what he wants her to buy. Or, Jim becomes a vegan and tells Susan she must prepare only vegan dishes for both of them. Susan is not at all fond of vegan food but submits to Jim.Quote:
Like this:
3) Darlynn wants a baby. Matt says no. Darlynn submits to her husband's wishes and no longer asks.
4)Huey wants sex every Saturday morning at 9:30. Ingrid finds activities for their kids to do unsupervised during the time needed. Ingrid submits to her husband's wishes.
5)She's a Stepford wife, from the novel by Ira Levin -- a term used to describe a servile, compliant, submissive, spineless wife who happily does her husband's bidding and serves his every whim dutifully.Jesus Christ is the king of the universe and obedience demands that we submit to his rule. To be obedient to God we must submit to Jesus Christ.Quote:
Is this what you were looking for (look above)?
You need focus. Jesus is our example.
WG, when you pick up the Bible believe it is God's word. Eliminate your own understanding, allowing the Word to take hold of you. It is your faith that brings truth (the word) to life.Quote:
JL (quote)You are a well-educated, accomplished woman, and yet you claim to need examples to understand what the widely known word "submit" means. It all gets old and tiresome. You believe the Bible unless, of course, it disagrees with you, and then you don't believe it unless asked when, again, you claim to believe it. And on and on it goes.
And give me an example (NOT the meaning) of submit. What specifically do I do when I submit?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You do it of your own free will...giving up (put to death) free will, in exchange for the will of God.Quote:
What specifically do I do when I submit?
You will have to pray about it, allowing Jesus to be your guide.
Give up my free will for what? (Didn't the Creator give us free will?) And this isn't about giving my free will to God. The question on the table has to do with a wife submitting to her husband. How? Why? When?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Yup. He gave us Breath of life as well.Quote:
Didn't the Creator give us free will?
I understand. Feel free to choose your own will over God's. Why ask me for examples, just use the ones you already gave.Quote:
And this isn't about giving my free will to God.
The question on the table has to do with a wife submitting to her husband. How? Why? When?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Stop being obstinate.Previous posts will inform you. If not, read your Bible.Quote:
The question on the table has to do with a wife submitting to her husband. How? Why? When?
The whole person is the soul, not just part of it. Man became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7), and when man dies his body goes back to the dust from whence it came (Ecclesiastes 12:7 & Job 34:15), and the spirit (ie., the breadth of life) goes back to God who gave it.
He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him
I never said Bible culture reflected hatred of women. But I do agree with the part of your statement above that it reflects "thinking less of women" and "men thinking themselves superior". The verses below clearly show superiority and mistrust of women.Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
Here are some examples you asked for:
Genesis 2. God directly breathes life into Adam but Eve is created from Adam's rib. Adam names Eve. All three are indicative of Adam's superiority.
Genesis 3. God decrees that Adam shall rule over Eve.
Genesis 4. God permits men to have more than one wife. Solomon had over 700. No woman is permitted more than a single husband.
Genesis 19. To protect his visitors, Lot allows his two virgin daughters to be raped. Accepted behavior by Lot.
Exodus 20:17. The wife is regarded as a piece of property of her father. At marriage, transfer of ownership goes to her husband.
Leviticus. No women priests.
Deuteronomy 22. A woman must be a virgin before marriage. Men don't have to be.
Deuteronomy. A husband can divorce his wife. A woman cannot divorce her husband.
1 Corinthians. A husband is the head of his wife.
Ephesians. Women should submit to their husbands in everything.
1 Peter. Women are the weaker vessel.
Plus Paul's admonition previously noted.
These clearly show that women are considered second class citizens alhough they can certainly be loved and cherished.
Exactly correct, Walter. Anyone who truly wants to know has enough material to know several times over by know. Everything else would appear to be just a smokescreen. Hopefully I have misread something there.Quote:
Previous posts will inform you. If not, read your Bible.
Second class citizens?
26For you are all childrenm of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.n 28There is no longer Jew or Gentile,o slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true childrenp of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.
The 1 Peter passage, untruncated and non-paraphrased, reads thus. "Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."
Note the many women greeted in Romans 16. 1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servanta of the church in Cenchrea. 2Welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her with anything she may need from you. For she has been a great help to many people, including me.3Greet Priscab and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, 4who have risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them. 5Greet also the church that meets at their house.Greet my beloved Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.c6Greet Mary, who has worked very hard for you.7Greet Andronicus and Junia,d my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.8Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.9Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.10Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ.Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.11Greet Herodion, my fellow countryman.Greet those from the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, women who have worked hard in the Lord.Greet my beloved Persis, who has worked very hard in the Lord.13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me as well.14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers with them.15Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them.
I think you don't understand complementarianism. It does not imply spiritual inferiority at all.
Wondergirl-
Submission does simply mean obey. Your example is valid with the F150. I had a similar situation with my wife just a few months ago.
We got a HHR a few years ago. It wasn't really either of our choice vehicle. It just happened to be something we could afford, and we were in a pinch, so we got it.
The HHR served us well. I decided (not we) to sell the thing, it has been accumulating issues faster than I can fix them. I've put some money in it making it run right and look good, I thought it was a good time to sell. Right now it is sitting on an auto lot for sale.
I decided on a GMC Vandura. My wife would prefer something else. In reality, she is just happy to have something she can drive while I'm at work. She is willing to submit to my authority, and trust my judgement.
My concern is for her. This is a reliable vehicle that is safe for her. But there were other considerations. I needed something bigger for my company. I needed something I could haul with occasionally. Since we got the van, she has been pleased, and I have been able to increase our income and decrease some of the stresses I have.
She made this easy for me, because, she is submissive. Someday, I hope to get her the nice little new car she wants. This goes both ways. A wife should be submissive to her husband, while a husband should be submissive to God. God tells me to take care of my wife and consider her happiness and well being. I don't tell her how to run her life, she makes her own decisions, as a woman, as a free person. However, this household is my responsibility, and I take that seriously. I make sure there is always enough money that we don't get put out. I make sure that if she is doing something I think is wrong, that she knows. My job is not to control her or to dominate her, but to guide her and love her and be there for her. She respects this, and me, and tends to be submissive in that manner. I trust her judgement, and consider her always, but I'm the one who gets the final say. Usually she gets what she wants, because I get the final say, she would readily give up what she wants for what I want.
If we had the money to get 3 cars, or I didn't need the larger vehicle, then I would have let her go car shopping, but that was not the case. For better or worse, I got the decision, and the consequences. I'm not always right either, and she's quick to point that out. This gives me respect for her and what she has to say. I do not discount her wisdom, she is often wiser than me, and I respect this about her. I often change my thinking about certain things because of her. I cherish her and care for her deeply. But without submission, this would be difficult. We can't share the same life and both dominate, when that happens, we are no longer sharing the same life, but rather sharing the same space and living our own lives.
How is that for an example?
Yayyyy...Athos is back!
This does not prove men are superior, but rather that they have been given authority. Two very different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
The Genesis 19 story about Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot would have allowed it, however, it didn't happen the men were struck with blindness, and God burned the city to the ground. But I get the point. A better example lies in Judges 19-21. The story is similar, however, the concubine given to the men was abused until morning and died. This caused a war, and that city was burnt to the ground. Their wickedness was repaid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
These are both great stories that emphasize sin. Not the shortcomings of the law. It is true that this was accepted behavior, it was the "decent" thing to do regarding their hospitality rules, but also true that it is not correct behavior by the law.
The law clearly states that sexual immorality is punishable by death. In both cases, there was much death as a result of these actions. These are stories whereby we can see God's grace with dealing with the sinner, while still understanding His law regarding the sin. Lot was later raped by his own daughters and his legacy, Moab and Ammon, are constant thorns in the side of the Israelites. Isaiah 1 Tells us that sin begets destruction, and greater sin begets greater destruction. Sin breeds sin. I might also point out, that the Genesis story was prior to the law, it had not yet been given by God to Moses.
The facts change slightly with the Levite. The rule of law has been established in the land of Israel by the time of the Judges 19 story. The wickedness of the city is much the same as that of Sodom and the facts surrounding the encounter with the mob is much the same. There were no angels there to protect the Levite, however, and mob was assuaged by the wife of the Levite. This resulted in her death. The circumstances leading up to this, are vastly different though. It was the father in law (probably) that sent out his daughter (the Levite's wife), she was unfaithful to the Levite, and that's how he ended up at her father's house.
These are stories of how destruction befalls sinners, and how God's mercy can work through the sin of man. These are not exemplifications of sin and a righteous society.
Exodus 20:17 simply says one should not desire what isn't his...it is part of the 10 Commandments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Exodus 22:17?
Here a man may lie with a woman and the father has the right to allow a marriage or disallow a marriage, given she is not betrothed to another. That was the penalty for the act, the man must marry the woman, and would never be able to seek a divorce, as this would give the wife more power over a weaker man. The consent of the woman is not considered, that is left to the family to decide. If she was raped, the father may deny the marriage, and the man fined for his actions, paying the father the dowry price. If it was consensual the father may allow the marriage, and still receive the dowry. This was the freedom granted to the cities and the families, to decide amongst themselves how to handle certain issues. There were also other laws restricting this, if the woman was kidnapped, then the kidnapper was to be put to death. It must also be understood, that women were usually betrothed at a very young age, and that the penalty for rape of a betrothed woman was death.
She is still a human, with rights in the law. She is, however, under the authority of her father, and then after marriage, under the authority of her husband.
This does not denote women as inferior, but rather, that men and women had different duties. You can't be president, why? You are not allowed. Is this discrimination some -ism against you? Should everyone be allowed to be president? There are laws that govern structure to have order and function within a society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
In 1 Corinthians 12 it is explained as analogy to the body. "But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it."
This applies to anyone. The bible teaches us to have peace with our station in life, that to be rebellious is sin, that the law is to be followed, etc. Even in this, we are one in Christ, and equal before God.
This applies to the dowry. If a woman was a virgin, then the dowry was set. A girl who was not a virgin was either a widow, or already had the dowry paid by a previous suitor (Divorced or otherwise not married). Men did not have dowries, they were expected to have already made a living for themselves and enough extra to purchase the dowry as proof of their financial readiness to have a wife. There were other laws that limited this also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Although true, a woman was not without recourse. She could force a man to divorce her by being contentious, or having by some uncleanness about her. Furthermore, divorce was a bad thing. It was sin that was allowed under the law. It wasn't anything that should have been done by either party. It was seen as a terrible thing that should only be done under the worst of circumstances, not something that should be granted as a right under the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Women are the weaker vessel, that is why God commands men to protect their daughters and wives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
I know no body likes to talk about this, but it is biology.
Inferior and superior are relative terms.
The structure of Mosaic laws is that all men and women are under the authority of the law.
The law delegates certain responsibilities to men.
The law delegates certain responsibilities to leaders.
The law delegates certain responsibilities to religious practice.
Men are under the authority of leaders.
Women are under the authority of men, but because both are under the authority of the law, they are equally protected by the law.
The law allows certain sins and punishes others.
The law allowed the authority of a leader to impact the authority of other men.
It was a rather beautiful system that gave room for the tribes to govern themselves, under the law, cities under the tribes, and men to govern their families under the laws of the cities (or the land of the tribes where there were no cites).
It was your responsibility to govern properly, or you would face consequences. Corruption would happen, as in the Judges 19 story, and other tribes would war over this, and rightfully so.
P.S.
It is also true that Christians do not have live by these laws. The OT is a series of promises between God and Man regarding the governing of Israel. It is a book of histories of the chosen people of God. It is so much more than that, but not a rule book for Christians.
Terrific example, InfoJunkie! I'd call her "submission" as simply being agreeable to your needs. It sounds more like you are equal partners with fair give and take.Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
We should not assume that everything done by a godly person in the Bible is automatically approved of by God. All of these men and women were clearly sinners. The Bible is unique amongst ancient documents in that it presents its heroes as very “human.” David, Solomon, Samuel, Abraham, Sarah, Moses and others are definitely presented as sinners who, in some cases, committed horrible mistakes. Therefore, if I comment on whether “white lies” are OK, the fact that Rahab told one is not really relevant to the question of whether it is okay to do such a thing. We must look to specific Bible commands and principles, not to individual stories to determine what is right behavior. We can comment on whether or not Rahab?s actions were sinful, but Rahab?s or Jacob?s orQuote:
God permits men to have more than one wife.
Isaiah?s actions are not a standard for us to use in determining correct ethical or moral behavior.
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In other words, you guys have absolutely NO idea what the word "submit" means in Bible terms.
How does a wife show with her deeds that she submits to her husband?
Maybe the reverse of this might be told? So we might recognize that, in the selfsame way, for a husband to declare that Jesus is Lord demands that he serves his wife and by doing so makes it clear that he is serving Christ. In Ephesians 5, Paul addresses the wives in 40 words; he uses 115 in instructing the husbands. That might give us some hint of what’s involved here. Husbands are commanded to love their wives? Commanded to love! (this is not unique here), -you’ll remember that the older women are to help the younger women to train them how to love their husbands. So in other words, this notion of love is not the victim of human emotion; it is rather the servant of our human will —that the real issue for both the husband and the wife is whether we are going to bow our knee, bend our will, to what the Bible says or whether we are going to try and go on our own.
Call it what you will, but my wife submits to my will more often than not. She is submissive by nature. I have to be careful to not abuse this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Of course we are equal, we are one flesh, we operate as a unit before the law and before others. My needs are her needs first.
She really wanted something different though, and my will was submitted to. She obeyed me when I told her that this will not be a contentious thing between us. She now understands why we needed this over what she wanted and makes no qualms.
And you will often satisfy her needs too, even if they conflict with yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
And she recognizes the Voice of Authority. ;-)Quote:
She obeyed me when I told her that this will not be a contentious thing between us.
The real issue for both the husband and the wife is whether we are going to bow our knee, bend our will, to what the Bible says, or whether we are going to try and go on our own.
Ah, another cherrypicker!Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You will never think rightly about marriage until you are convinced of the divine origin of Scripture.Quote:
She obeyed me when I told her
Then she recognizes the Voice of Authority. ;-)
The real issue for both the husband and the wife...
Ah, another cherrypicker!
You (WG) are going at it, just as a pragmatist.Quote:
And you will often satisfy her needs too, even if they conflict with yours.
Remember the fictitious story of the individuals who had all arrived in the realm of heaven, and Peter and some of the others were getting the men as organized as they could. And the fellow stepped forward and said, “Now, what I want you to do is, I want you to just get yourselves organized here. I’m going to put you in two groups. Over here on my left I’d like to have all the men whose wives, frankly, dominated them in their earthly pilgrimage, whose wives ruled the home. And then over on my right-hand side I’d like to have all the men who exercised leadership and jurisdiction in their earthly pilgrimage.” And there was just a huge shift over to the left-hand side, just droves and droves of men. And when they had finally assembled themselves, Peter looked, and there was just one man standing over here. And Peter said, “You’re probably quite lonely over there. How come you’re there?” And he said, “My wife told me to stand over here.”
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