“Go in by the narrow gate. For the wide gate has a broad road which leads to disaster and there are many people going that way. The narrow gate and the hard road lead out into life and only a few are finding it.” When you prefer to listen to your own ideas and ignore the words of Christ, then it's hard to help you.

I think his point was not so much about numbers (though that is there) as it is about access. There is only one way to God and that way is Jesus, but there are many wrong paths, and thus the road that leads to destruction is "broad". So much for wiggle room. I think you cherish that "wiggle room" because you think it allows you to introduce your own ideas into the Gospel. That will never be allowed. God put it this way. "My thoughts are not your thoughts." He is not referred to as "Lord" for no reason.

Read the story in John 4.

Jesus says we are to love one another. He doesn't specify who to love and who not to love..

I don't think you read it yourself. If you had, you would have seen this.

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"39 Many Samaritans from the village believed in Jesus because the woman had said, “He told me everything I ever did!” 40 When they came out to see him, they begged him to stay in their village. So he stayed for two days, 41 long enough for many more to hear his message and believe.

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There's never been a question about us loving each other. The question concerns your false assertion that love is all God requires of us. It is flatly untrue.

I never said that's all God requires of us.

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I never said that's all God requires of us

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Really? "All God wants from us is to love one another."

You're trying to find some more of that "wiggle room".

I don't see any love, JL.

I Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

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Another question for DW. Which Bible translations do you prefer?

And in case you missed this one, "DW, in your view, what constitutes the "heart" in NT teaching? When Proverbs tells us to "guard your heart", what does "heart" mean there? I'm in the process of reading Witness Nee's description of the heart, but he can get so wordy and technical that I get lost in the weeds."

I'm preaching on the heart Sunday and am not super clear on how to describe it.

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I'm partial to the NIV, though for the unchurched/untaught, I find The Message useful.
In both Testaments, the "heart" is the seat of the emotions and decision-making. "Guard your heart" because the wrong influences on the center of your being can send your decisions in a lot of bad directions.
We have several terms for it today, such as "trust your gut". Solomon would have said "Trust your heart" if he eve intended to say such an absurd thing. He said "guard" rather than "trust" because he knew the truth that Jeremiah wrote down a few centuries later: the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Since the heart is the entity that guides decision making, that means it's naturally prone to evil. That's why we need Jesus: not only to save us from a Godless eternity, but to save us from ourselves right now.
My reading in the Greek New Testament this morning was the stoning of Stephen. I had to ask, why is humanity's first answer to any conflict to try and kill someone? Why is that the first thing we think of? Think about it. Somebody pulls a prank, what do we say as we're laughing? "I'm gonna kill you!" Even in jest it's our first thought.
If that's not enough evidence that humans are hopelessly corrupt and in need of a savior to reconcile us to God, I don't know what will.
I hope I answered your question.

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I don't see any love, JL.

I Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

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First, I don't see any of what you suggest in JL's posts. Second, bringing in this passage is a red herring. Who's he addressing? Hint: not pagans or other non-believers. Check the wider context. The question is what God requires. You said in so many words that all God wants from us is to love each other. Then you said that's not what you said. Color me confused. And JL is right, John 4 does not support your argument. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Sorry if I'm getting snippy, but this sort of thing bugs me.

WG, maybe you'll see this the second time I post it. "There's never been a question about us loving each other. The question concerns your false assertion that love is all God requires of us. It is flatly untrue."

DW, thanks for the answers. I was sitting at the rehab this morning listenting to someone else and I started thinking about the various strengths and weaknesses of the different approaches to translation. Accurate translations such as ESV and NASB suffer from readability issues. Readable ones such as the NLT suffer from accuracy issues. It hit me that the solution might be to read both. Read a passage in, for instance, the NASB, and then turn around and read the same one in The Message or the NLT.

My wife and I send Bibles to Africa. We purchase used, leather bound study Bibles off of Ebay for not very much and ship them out. Just sent 450. We generally use the NIV with either the Life App notes or the Zondervan study notes, so I'm glad to see your endorsement of the NIV.

Your words concerning the heart are much appreciated. It certainly does seem plain to see that mankind has a fallen, rebellious, mean streak that only Jesus can work with.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

WG, maybe you'll see this the second time I post it. "There's never been a question about us loving each other. The question concerns your false assertion that love is all God requires of us. It is flatly untrue."

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When did I use the word ALL?

My other favorite passage besides I Corinthians 13 is this one. We used it at our son's funeral five years ago:

Micah 6:8 NIV: He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

This is getting old. ""All God wants from us is to love one another."

You need to address DW's comments. They are very good.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

This is getting old. ""All God wants from us is to love one another."

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I added more to my previous reply. This --

My other favorite passage besides I Corinthians 13 is this one. We used it at our son's funeral five years ago:

Micah 6:8 NIV: He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

You are running from your "all".

Please address DW's response.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Please address DW's response.

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As he said, love is the answer:

"Since the heart is the entity that guides decision making, that means it's naturally prone to evil. That's why we need Jesus: not only to save us from a Godless eternity, but to save us from ourselves right now."

And yes, John 4 does support my argument. Jesus sat with the Samaritan woman because of love.

1 John 4:16
New International Version
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Conveniently overlooked. "...not only to save us from a Godless eternity, but to save us from ourselves right now."

Intentionally, repeatedly ignored. "There's never been a question about us loving each other. The question concerns your false assertion that love is all God requires of us. It is flatly untrue."

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I added more to my previous reply. This --

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And there is still that pesky "all".

If you don't have love, you don't have God in your heart.

I would certainly agree with that.

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Wondergirl
Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
Please address DW's response.
As he said, love is the answer:

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That is SO not what I said.

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"Since the heart is the entity that guides decision making, that means it's naturally prone to evil. That's why we need Jesus: not only to save us from a Godless eternity, but to save us from ourselves right now."

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That is NOT "love is the answer". That is "Jesus is the answer". And kindly address the "Godless eternity" and all the rest instead of copping out.

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And yes, John 4 does support my argument. Jesus sat with the Samaritan woman because of love.

1 John 4:16
New International Version
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

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JOHN 4, not 1 John 4. Jesus sat with the Samaritan woman because he was thirsty. Please stop eisegeting.

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That is SO not what I said.

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You should have.

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That is NOT "love is the answer". That is "Jesus is the answer".

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Yes, Jesus is the love that inspires us to give that love to each other.

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And kindly address the "Godless eternity" and all the rest instead of copping out.

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Those were DW's words. I simply agreed.

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Jesus sat with the Samaritan woman because he was thirsty. Please stop eisegeting.

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And let's talk about that woman. He had no clue about her past and present life? He just plopped down, hoping for a sip of water? Gimme a break!

John 4 = woman at the well. Then I posted:

1 John 4:16
New International Version
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

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You should have.

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Oh brother.

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He had no clue about her past and present life? He just plopped down, hoping for a sip of water? Gimme a break!

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When asked to stop eisegeting, you promptly begin to eisegete.

After I first read the Bible, I read "He who believes Jesus is the son of God."
Before I read the Bible I might have professed Evolution. After I read, I simply believed in God as it said, and that was it. That was all I was required to do...And I believed it.
I use to express that to others and I'd always get a - well not exactly -well there is more to it than that - wrong - That's not what it says -that's not what it means etc. Didn't matter how they explained it, I could hear them but It held no weight on my heart.
Walked around for the next 30 yrs before I craved a real love for Jesus.

Just leave WG alone. Please use prayer. Prayer is the only answer. you can not talk somebody into believing as you do, it's not set up that way. Only the holy spirit can intervene.

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Your false assertion that love is all God requires of us.

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Maybe that is all God requires of her at this particular point in time.
Maybe you were brought in here for a time such as this, to open your eyes and see the problems you might be creating for yourself.

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but to suggest that our understanding of God and the truth of the Bible is to be on the level of what a child can understand is completely unbiblical

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Really? Get out of your mind and focus on whats in your heart. Come, all you newborn children of God. Come, listen, drink, grow... And Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever, therefore, shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


Every single human being, except one, has been under the sentence of death and has been a child of wrath (Genesis 2–3).

Maybe It is time to become a Child of God?

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Prayer is the only answer. you can not talk somebody into believing as you do, it's not set up that way. Only the holy spirit can intervene.

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Then why are you trying to talk me into believing that? If you really believed what you just posted, then you would never post on this site. You would only pray, so even you are not following your own advice. But I would agree with you that prayer is the greatest weapon, and I do pray regularly for WG and Athos.

Still, Jesus had discussions with people. Paul had discussions with people . Peter had discussions with people. It's necessary.

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Maybe that is all God requires of her at this particular point in time.

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Not according to the Bible.

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Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever, therefore, shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

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That is talking about having the humility of a child. It is NOT talking about having child-like understanding.

Would you take Paul's word for it? "Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature." Did you see that? "DO NOT BE CHILDREN IN YOUR THINKING." It seems to be very clear.

I've been a child of God for 45 years. How about you?

Is there any reason why the bunch of you continue going round and round hitting on the same arguments year after year...repeating the same thing, time and time again...thinking the more you speak the more the truth gets out?

Don't you think we have been playing this Word game long enough? That's all it has become and it's become an endless cycle, that leads down a road most traveled.

I entered this thread, not trying to "talk [you] into believing that[.]" - ("That" being the prayer that was initiated). When I initially entered this post It was my desire to invoke God through prayer...I forgot, so it was included in a later post.

I know you pray and we all believe in prayer. I see many Bible verses in these threads, but I don't know If I have ever read a prayer...thought maybe that might be what's missing. I can pray by myself but it is much better when we enter being of one accord.

This thread is a prime example. How'd it go from; "Does Satan really exist?" Too a child-like understanding vs adult thinking?

I am a child of God and have been for all eternity.

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Is there any reason why the bunch of you continue going round and round hitting on the same arguments year after year...repeating the same thing, time and time again...thinking the more you speak the more the truth gets out?

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A pretty fair observation. Just bear in mind that you are participating in it.

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I am a child of God and have been for all eternity.

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You have existed for all of eternity?

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Just bear in mind that you are participating in it.

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Yes, and that bothers me. I don't understand why it doesn't seem to bother any of you.

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You have existed for all of eternity?

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Came to know life through the breath of God...no worries, you got 45 years on me.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Yes, and that bothers me. I don't understand why it doesn't seem to bother any of you.

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Maybe you can put us on the right path. Are you a Witness?

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I don't understand why it doesn't seem to bother any of you.

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It does bother me. I've mentioned it before, that we talk and talk and talk, and yet no one ever changes his/her mind about anything. But I have learned some things about myself in these conversations.

Desiring the truth in his Word; Lord Jesus, Forgive us of our sinful nature and bring your word into our hearts, bringing life in understanding. .

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Not according to the Bible.

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How am I able to put this without offending you
(Prepare to be offended)?

You might have Great knowledge of what's in the Bible. But, you might also be lacking the Wisdom on how to apply said knowledge. A person can read any number of books, subjecting them to his own [limited] personal relationship with the Bible.

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Maybe that is all God requires of her at this particular point in time.

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The wisdom of God, is fulfilling itself in many ways and in diverse manners. It is manifested, therefore, in the infinite variety both of the teaching and the life of the Church - yet one, as embodying but one life, the life of Jesus Christ...discovering itself gradually in such a beautiful and well-ordered variety of dispensations...some can only Dance to it, and some can sing to it.

IT APPEARS - To be well placed in your mind...It's not a code of Law that is to be explained. We don't, all, start from the same school of thought. In other words, It is only something that can be experienced, You can not define it. You can not reduce it to a form of a Creed.

Try getting out of your mind and start listening to your heart.

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IT APPEARS - To be well placed in your mind...It's not a code of Law that is to be explained. We don't, all, start from the same school of thought. In other words, It is only something that can be experienced, You can not define it. You can not reduce it to a form of a Creed.

Try getting out of your mind and start listening to your heart.

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We are never told to listen to our hearts. We are told to listen to God.

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You can not reduce it to a form of a Creed.

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Of course you can. That's done, for instance, in the first eight verses of Ephesians 2. There are other places as well, and that's not to mention early church creeds such as the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds.

Perhaps I didn't catch your meaning well.

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And kindly address the "Godless eternity" and all the rest instead of copping out.
Those were DW's words. I simply agreed.

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But you've denied its existence. Please explain.