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1. Since you say you accept the Bible past Genesis 10 or so,


I NEVER said that about the Bible

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This was your statement. "I clearly did NOT "do away" with "most of the OT". I interpreted a tiny section of the OT (Genesis) as most major denominations do." I took that to mean you accept the Bible outside of the beginning of Genesis, but you want to throw out all of Genesis so that's fine, The destruction of the Canaanites is till outside of Genesis. Do you accept that?

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I have answered 2 of the 3.

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Fraid not.

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It's so strikingly a contradiction of the message of the Bible that I'm surprised you even ask it after the discussion we've been having.

First, do you seriously believe that God ordered the genocide of an entire people? Don't you think it highly more likely to see this story of Israel's entrance into the "Promised Land" as a tribute to their tribal God? A God that they praise for their victory. The true God does not slaughter his own creation.

Second, the Canaanites weren't actually wiped out as the story would have it - further proof of the story being an allegory. DNA extraction indicates that the Israelites were themselves Canaanites, and retain such DNA to the present day.

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Long story made short, the Bible account, for you, is not accurate. So another aspect of the OT that you don't accept.

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My reply was the best one for you. Apparently, you didn't follow my advice. If you had, you would have discovered that nowhere in that passage does Jesus refer to his killing anyone or anything.

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Another non-answer. I never suggested Jesus said He would kill someone in that passage. He said they would die in their sins. I asked you what you thought of that. As usual, you do not answer.

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I have answered this at length, as you are well aware. I do not intend to go through it again. You can easily find it yourself.

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Another non-answer. You have never answered that.

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That is because "every other translation" follows Jerome's Vulgate.

The early Greek speakers never felt the need to explain Greek words such as "aion" and "aionion." In Greek, an aion (in English, usually spelled "eon") is an indefinite period of time, usually of long duration. When it was translated into the Latin Vulgate, "aion" became "aeternam" which means "eternal." These translation errors were the basis for much of what was written about Eternal Hell.

I sincerely hope you don't go around telling people about the killing monster you claim Jesus to be. It begs the question why you find it so necessary to see Jesus in that murderous light.

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Your final paragraph is a flat out lie. I have never said that. If I had, you would have thrown up the quote.

As to the rest, it's a nice theory. But even if I accepted that, you would still render heaven temporary. It's unavoidable. At any rate, perhaps the thousands of highly educated individuals who translated the several dozen translations that disagree with your idea would love to hear from you about that.

This is pointless. It's like nearly every other discussion on this site. No one ever persuades anyone else to change his/her mind. I have asked you three questions and you have declined to answer them. You claim I have avoided answering some mystery question evidently unknown to either one of us. You don't like the God of the OT. I don't think He cares if you approve or not. So that's, it seems to me, where it stands.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

As to the rest, it's a nice theory. But even if I accepted that, you would still render heaven temporary. It's unavoidable. At any rate, perhaps the thousands of highly educated individuals who translated the several dozen translations that disagree with your idea would love to hear from you about that.

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Here's something to ponder:

I Can’t Wait to Get out of Heaven

When talking about God’s ultimate destination for us, we’ve grown sloppy in our language, nearsighted in our gaze, and un-Easter in our hope. We act and speak as if dying and going to heaven is what the faith is all about. It is most emphatically not.

Sit through many Christian funerals, and you’ll hear the word “heaven” bouncing around from pulpit to pew to piano. Uncle Gary is now “in heaven,” the preacher will proclaim. “Grandma Jones is in her heavenly resting place,” a family member will say. When the music starts, the choir will sing that we are but strangers here; heaven is our home. Heaven, heaven, and more heaven.
* * * * *
From the beginning, God made earth as humanity’s home. Evil has corrupted it, to be sure, so that “the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth” while it awaits the return of Christ, when it will be “set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (Rom. 8:21-22). The whole creation is waiting, not for the children of God to go to heaven, but for Christ to return and make creation free of corruption. Then it will be, once more, the dwelling place of God’s sons and daughters.

If the renewed earth is where our Father wants us to be, who does he want us to be? He certainly doesn’t want us to be angels or spirits or disembodied ghosts. He wants us to bear the bodily image of his Son, the resurrected Messiah. But we can’t really do that if we are still in paradise, with Christ, in heaven, while our bodies are decomposing in the grave. So, when Jesus returns, he will raise and glorify our bodies. No matter what’s happened to them—buried, burned, cast into the sea, dismembered, it matters not—he who spoke all creation into being with his word, will speak our bodies back into being by that same word.

Then, the where will match the who: we will be embodied, perfected, glorified people standing on a renewed, perfected, holy earth. There we will go about the task of being fully human, as God intended. The Lord’s story will have come full circle, from creation to recreation: from Genesis, where one man and one woman were living and working and worshiping in Eden, to Revelation, where a resurrected humanity is living and working and worshiping all over God’s green and glorified earth.

from this essay --
https://www.1517.org/articles/i-cant...-out-of-heaven

An interesting post, WG. And you (or the author, at least) used a proof text, which is commendable. But I do believe you left out the most important element, which is the corruption, not just of creation, but of man. Jesus did not die in order to redeem creation. Jesus died to purchase redemption for sinners. Lk. 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” John 3:36. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The author of the piece understood that. "What happens when believers in Christ die? They go to a place called Paradise (Luke 23:43). They are with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Or, if you prefer, they go to heaven."

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

An interesting post, WG. And you (or the author, at least) used a proof text, which is commendable. But I do believe you left out the most important element, which is the corruption, not just of creation, but of man.

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That's why I posted the link, so that you could read the entire blog article and see that Chad did include that. I posted as much as I could to hopefully whet your interest but not hog AMHD space.

And Chad doesn't believe heaven is the final stop. That final stop will be on earth, our paradise with Christ.

"Heaven is great, don’t get me wrong. But the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting, living in the new earth as fully bodied humans, reflecting the glory of the fully bodied Messiah—that’s the goal. That’s the destination. That is our final home.

Home, for the Christian, is not the hotel room of heaven but the new earth of the resurrection."

I agree with that. It's a good point that can be read about in Rev. 21.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I took that to mean you accept the Bible outside of the beginning of Genesis,

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You took it wrong - as I clearly explained in the previous reply to you.

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but you want to throw out all of Genesis so that's fine, The destruction of the Canaanites is till outside of Genesis. Do you accept that?

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*sigh* It never ends with you, does it? READ WHAT I WRITE. I accept the story being outside Genesis. So what?

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Long story made short, the Bible account, for you, is not accurate. So another aspect of the OT that you don't accept.

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BIG *SIGH* - "Susse Jesu, Bleiben Sie Mir". Read, read, read my previous post.

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Another non-answer. I never suggested Jesus said He would kill someone in that passage. He said they would die in their sins. I asked you what you thought of that. As usual, you do not answer.

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You implied it. It was referring to the topic of Jesus/God killing people sometime in wholesale lots. I told you what I thought of it. I can't be blamed if you can't read plain language.

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Your final paragraph is a flat out lie. I have never said that. If I had, you would have thrown up the quote.

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Your understanding is worse than even I thought. Let me explain - the meaning of words (yours, specifically) is easily construed by the message delivered (in this case, that Jesus/God are killers) and then recast to show the deeper meaning. Do you deny that Jesus/God is responsible for killing the Canaanites, Noah's neighbors, etc., etc.?

As for throwing up a quote, that's another serious problem you have. Unless it's in the Bible, you don't believe it. You're not in the Bible. Do you believe in your own existence? Rhetorical, no reply necessary.

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As to the rest, it's a nice theory. But even if I accepted that, you would still render heaven temporary.

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Not so. The problem here is you simply don't understand the use of language.

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At any rate, perhaps the thousands of highly educated individuals who translated the several dozen translations that disagree with your idea would love to hear from you about that.

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Another (!) miss on your part. Your "dozens" translated from the same translation - Jerome's Vulgate. How difficult is that to understand?

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This is pointless. It's like nearly every other discussion on this site. No one ever persuades anyone else to change his/her mind. I have asked you three questions and you have declined to answer them

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Here is why discussion with you is pointless. You simply refuse to accept any answer that doesn't appeal to you. You call it a "non-answer". You make conversation/discussion impossible.

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You don't like the God of the OT. I don't think He cares if you approve or not.

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Now you speak for God. Of course, that's what you've been doing all along. You just don't realize it.

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You implied it.

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Nope. First you said I "claimed" it was true. "I sincerely hope you don't go around telling people about the killing monster you claim Jesus to be. It begs the question why you find it so necessary to see Jesus in that murderous light." When I called you on that one, then you want to retreat and claim I "implied" it. I suppose you will next claim you had a dream where I wrote it. Is there no end to it? Have you no shame?

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It was referring to the topic of Jesus/God killing people sometime in wholesale lots. I told you what I thought of it.

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Another nope. You never did.

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Your understanding is worse than even I thought. Let me explain - the meaning of words (yours, specifically) is easily construed by the message delivered (in this case, that Jesus/God are killers)

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Learn to read.

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As for throwing up a quote, that's another serious problem you have. Unless it's in the Bible, you don't believe it.

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I've never said that.

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You're not in the Bible. Do you believe in your own existence? Rhetorical, no reply necessary.

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And since I never said it, then this is simply ridiculous.

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Not so. The problem here is you simply don't understand the use of language.

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So you still fear answering. I'll ask once again. If aionios means, as you have said, something less than eternal when it describes hell, then it would also mean less than eternal when applied to heaven. Correct?

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Now you speak for God. Of course, that's what you've been doing all along. You just don't realize it.

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Complete absurdity.

Rather frequently it is much better to simply admit you don't have answers. At least you would retain some honor in that.

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That is because "every other translation" follows Jerome's Vulgate.

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Not since Erasmus. In fact I only know of one non-Catholic translation that followed the Vulgate, except I can never remember whether it was Tyndale or Wyclif.

Following the publication of Erasmus' Greek New Testament in 1516, future translations, at least Protestant ones, used a Greek text and rejected the Vulgate.

-Regards,
Sir Nitpick

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-Regards,
Sir Nitpick

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Nice touch of humor. It made me laugh out loud.

Thanks. Sir Reginald Cornelius Cadwaller Nitpick IV is my alter ego.

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Why didn't he already know? Why didn't his father call him from the field

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Notice three things concerning this son. Number one; The discovery he hated to make:
Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near  the house (look at what he heard) he heard celebration, it was celebration time- okay come on...and as he comes in from the field he hears the music and dancing. He would know that something special was going on -and on hearing the celebration he initiates an investigation. Verse 26: he calls one of the servants and he asks him specifically, what was going on? It's interesting that he doesn't go into his house...I mean why doesn't he just go in and find out? After all you're the son, maybe he was dirty and he didn't want to go in. We're not told but it surely is of significance that he decides that he isn't going in. Maybe he didn't like parties, maybe he had an inkling of what was taking place and he didn't like it and didn't want to discover it first hand. Nevertheless he conducts an investigation by asking the Servant.

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At least one scholar calls it the Parable of the Older Brother because he thinks that's the main focus of the story.

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It certainly looks that way, regarding the Pharisees. 
Luke 15 is three stories of lostness. a lost coin, a lost sheep and actually two sons who were lost, and the Context (is set in verse 1-2 of the chapter. in between listening sinners and muttering Pharisees) of which Jesus tells these stories is clearly this, at the end of Chapter 14 Jesus has just said he who has ears to hear let him hear. 'and then we're immediately told who has ears to hear because it was the tax collectors and the sinners who were all gathering around to hear him. So Jesus says okay if you want to listen, listen and  here they are listening. The people we might least  expect to listen, were listening. The sinners, the irreligious, the unchurched, the outsiders, the bad guys. And the people we might most expect to listen, the religious leaders, the folks who were in their regular  activities faithful in their duties observable in their ceremonies, they weren't listening. In fact we are told they were muttering and they weren't just muttering anything they were saying under their breath to one another this man welcomes sinners and eats with them. Jesus was forcing them to acknowledge that there was great Joy over the discovery of the lost coin- there was great joy over the lost sheep, therefore there would be the same kind of Joy over the rediscovery of the lost Son. However the Pharisees were grudging in their appreciation. and the grudging nature of their reaction is represented in these final six or so verses. Where we see the response of the older Son.

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And WG, as for your friend's question about deathbed conversions, I think ClassyT could answer that one as well as I can: Grace.

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Don't get me started. 

Hope you guys are enjoying yourselves

Pardon, I haven't read all the posts.

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I don't personally believe the younger son actually thought he was no longer "worthy". The younger son was just starving

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Let me ask a question; When did the boy get the robe and the ring and the sandals and the whole gear? In the pigsty?  No. -In a pigsty he came to his senses, on the road he said I have sinned and in the house he received his wardrobe. Beware of a Gospel which offers robes in a pigsty.

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It's not as if knowing about the party that mattered, the party should be expected in any case

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He completely missed or ignored all that he might have enjoyed of his Fathers provision.
Look at the lovely way his Father speaks; my Son, you are always with me and everything I have is yours. But we 'had to celebrate' because this 'Brother of yours' (Not this Son of mine) but this brother of yours. (He's not going to let him get away with this talk), Referring to his brother as "his Fathers Son". This brother of yours was dead and is alive again, and he was lost and he was found. You see that the proud and the self righteous always feel that they're not treated as well as they deserve. When you or I are proud and full of ourselves we think that it ought to be better than it really is. The Son looked at the events as they transpired and he saw them in terms of rewards and he missed the point of love and of grace. In his warped thinking this was the way his mind worked. My brother splits with his portion of the inheritance. He fails to mention the fact that 2/3's comes to him and he's got rights to it right now, he's got run of the whole show but he doesn't mention that. His Brother split with a 3rd of the inheritance, he completely bums out in a far country, he dissipates his life he squanders his resources he ends up in a pigsty and then he comes back and what happens to him, the Father "rewards him. and so he says this is ridiculous if you want to talk rewards I should  be getting the rewards! I slaved in your house. I obeyed you all the time- he disobeyed you, he left and you reward him!!! That's not right...and that's not right. But it wasn't a reward. It was a must. It wasn't a reward for coming home. God doesn't reward us for becoming Christians. Do me a favor says God, and trust Jesus and I'll give you a lot of things because I'm really pleased. No, no he said; you need my Son, believe my Son and when you trust my Son lets party.  let's celebrate. this wasn't a reward. Notice verse 32 we 'had to celebrate' and be glad. We didn't have any option. This wasn't press button B this is the overflow of our lives. Your brother was dead now he is alive he was lost and was found. The Necessity of the celebration is revealed in the fact that God and heaven are concerned with it, when somebody is saved God and heaven rejoice together. 

This is one of my fav Parables.

I've been writing all day about this.
Just one more

(Shut it Athos ;-))

Older Son: This character reminds us that religious behavior, if unaccompanied by a renewed heart and mind, is utterly bankrupt.

The Older Brother didn't have any sympathy within himself. He fails to express it. 

Who's the most Lost in this Story?
There is no 'Most lost' in this story. There are no degrees of Lost, there's just Lost...it is all lost. And the Pharisees (like us) 13:44 didn't want to hear that. We want to live with the notion that there are degrees of lost.  And we have a message for the really lost ones, unlike us. When we can't express sympathy for those who have been found, we reveal the predicament of our own hearts. and in his response to the Father he makes it obvious that although he views himself as the Model Son, I've been slaving for you, I never disobeyed your orders I've always done everything right...He never understood what it was to be a Son. He never understood the heart of his father because he lived as a Son like a slave. Notice what he says, all these years I've been slaving for you and I've never disobeyed your orders.  just like the individualist;  I have always gone to church I have always kept the ten commandments. I am a good person, and yet you make a fuss about all these people getting saved...why don't you make a fuss about me! The spirit of the Pharisees creeps out in the heart of this man.  They adhered to the rules but they were inwardly estranged from God. So the Son boasts about himself; I slaved for you, I never disobeyed your orders, and then he blames his dad; you never gave me even a young goat. He's ticked about the fattened calf, maybe he had a plan for a party he was going to have with the calf, and now it's gone,, kaput. People are eating it in a party that he refuses not to attend. so he lays a guilt trip on his Father as if he could. He got a fattened calf and I never even got a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.  Incidentally in the first part of the story the prodigal's friends were no help to him at all. Guess what, this guys' friends were no help to him at all either. Birds of a feather flock together. All the religious Joes and the Holy Willy's and the erudite Pharisees hang tough with one another planning their own parties and can't celebrate when a genuine work of grace takes place. Notice how he expresses his relationship with his brother, no relationship at all. "but when this Son of Yours."  He didn't say when my Brother came back. when this Son of yours who squandered your property, and then he begins to dress up the story, with prostitutes, where did he get that from? Who ever said that? Pharisees often complain loudest of the sins that they themselves would most like to commit 18:12The Older Son in the backyard of the father, had a heart that longed after that which his brother experienced, he had a nasty mind who was full of himself. He blamed everyone else. His years of obedience were grim duty and his long standing secret alienation from his father becomes perfectly obvious. 

7 Pages WOW! I missed em all...thank God.
Im Sure 6 of the 7 are Athos's and jlisenbe going at it...fun fun

Finally read the Posts on this thread.
Like Athos, not enjoying much of my Babble- I Don't think I enjoy the two of you always going at it anymore. It is a never ending thing with the two of you.

Dad told me to tell the both of you to knock it off!

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There we will go about the task of being fully human, as God intended. The Lord’s story will have come full circle, from creation to recreation: from Genesis, where one man and one woman were living and working and worshiping in Eden, to Revelation, where a resurrected humanity is living and working and worshiping all over God’s green and glorified earth.

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I understand it as God Creating something New. An entirely New Creation. Something we have no comprehension.
Jesus might be the Only thing left of Humanity. We will be in the house of the Lord giving Praise to God, Always.
I know, to most that might sounds Boring, But I felt it once and it is anything but. I don't think there will be any
work to do? we are in the Rest period. :-)

It is interesting to me that, of the two sons, only the rebel ended up in the good graces of his father. It reminds me of the parable where two sons were told to go work in the fields. One initially refused, but then thought better of it and went. The other initially agreed, but then never went. Jesus said prostitutes and tax collectors were entering the Kingdom, but the pharisees and sadducees, despite their confidence to the contrary, were not.

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Verse 26: he calls one of the servants and he asks him specifically, what was going on? It's interesting that he doesn't go into his house...I mean why doesn't he just go in and find out? After all you're the son, maybe he was dirty and he didn't want to go in. We're not told but it surely is of significance that he decides that he isn't going in.

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Based on the context, I assume he's still a ways away from the house.

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Based on the context, I assume he's still a ways away from the house.

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When he came near  the house (look at what he heard) he heard celebration, it was celebration time- okay come on...and as he comes in from the field he hears the music and dancing. He would know that something special was going on -and on hearing the celebration he initiates an investigation...he wouldn't go into the party! 

The older brother was a Pharisee. The Pharisees knew Jesus was talking about them...the older brother was a good son...same as the Pharisees.

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The older brother was a Pharisee.

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Or anyone else trusting in his own goodness with no real heart for the father.

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the older brother was a good son

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He was a "good son" in appearance only.

The older brother was a good son. He was there, he did what he was told...he was a good son. The older brother failed to see that sin is not simply acts of wickedness and disobedience but sin is a heart of rebellion against the Father. The Prodigal Son came home, willing to become a slave in his Fathers house while his older brother was living as a slave in his fathers house. They both were in need of grace.

"...he was a good son...sin is a heart of rebellion against the Father."

Those two statements concerning the older son cannot both be true. The older son cared nothing for his father's will. He seemed to be working largely for his own benefit.

I think this parable (more of an allegory?) is very similar to the one Jesus told where the father told his two sons to go work in the field. One refused, but later rethought it and did his father's will. The other agreed, but he never went. The second one here would be the older son.

We could go through this. You could put two columns down, and we could write in them. On the prodigal’s side, he is a son by grace; on the older brother’s side, he is a son by law. On the prodigal’s side, he’s done nothing to merit God’s kindness; on the older brother’s side, he’s done everything to earn it. On the prodigal’s side, this is salvation by the sheer mercy of God; on the older brother’s side, this is an attempt at salvation by obedience and the keeping of the commandments.

This isn’t to say that son number two wasn’t at least outwardly a good, steady, faithful son. Jesus is not here saying that the Pharisees were all rotten. Oh, sure, they had hypocrisy that was part of their existence, but they weren’t the sort of archetypal hypocrite on two legs. These people had given their lives to religion. These people were concerned to know God. These people stayed up late in the night reading the Torah, searching it out, telling others how they can also live by these obligations. So it’s not that this older brother represents some kind of pathetic creature. No, we should think of him exactly as he’s described: as a good, steady, faithful son

God desires a restored relationship with everyone—not because of what we’ve done, but on the basis of His great kindness in Christ.

The older brother's heart was as corrupt as the younger brother's had been, but he was able to conceal it until the end.

I think the pharisees were indeed all rotten. They had no real interest in God. If they had, they would have accepted God when He showed up as Jesus.

It's all good, Walter. I do appreciate your earnestness for God. It's my prayer that we will both advance in our love for Christ.

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he was able to conceal it until the end.

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Not so much conceal. He misunderstood.

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The older brother's heart was as corrupt as the younger brother's had been, but he was able to conceal it until the end.

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He had a heart of rebellion against his father—expressed differently from the rebellious heart of his younger brother, but nevertheless he was in the same predicament. And he was in need of the same mercy. And what he deserved, he should not be asking for. And what God was willing to give, there was no basis for him to receive.

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I think the Pharisees were indeed all rotten. They had no real interest in God. If they had, they would have accepted God when He showed up as Jesus.

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When the Bible says that “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,” that does not eradicate the degrees of difference that exist amongst men and women. Right? Not all of us have committed murder. We have all sinned. Not all of us have violated every command in the way another has. Not all of us have lived consumed with pride, or consumed with something, in the way that someone else may have done. So that there is a distinction—not a distinction in terms of whether a man is a sinner or not a sinner, but all are sinners, but the sense of sin and the expression of sin works itself out in different ways and in different people’s lives.

So there is vast difference between these two brothers. But it is a relative difference. Right? One of them definitely lived better. You can’t argue that. He lived better! He stayed home, he shined his shoes, he went to work, he did his business. He was present when he said he would be present. His life, from one perspective, was a better and a more constructive life than his brother’s, who made a hash of it. But the difference is relative, because they were both equally sinners, both equally in need of mercy. And it was this fact that the elder brother couldn’t understand—because he represents the Pharisees

It’s grace. It’s grace. And the danger of certain chunks of American evangelical fundamentalism is that it has actually never understood grace. And in the absence of grace, it has lived with lists, and it has lived with obligations, and it has lived with shibboleths, and it has lived with accretions, and it has lived with rules, and it says to people, “If you will do this, and if you will meet that, and if you will come there, and if you will fulfill this, then there’s a chance, you know.” Which is nothing at all about the way that the father grabs the boy up the street, is it? It’s all grace. He deserves a hiding; he gets a hug. He deserves to stay down in that mess; he’s given a new bedroom. He deserves to walk the streets in his sorry outfit and with the stinky smell of the pigs on him, and he’s given a bath, and he’s given all of the radiance of his father’s welcome. It’s a wonderful story. And you would think that anybody would want to go to this party, especially his brother. But he refused to go in.

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I think the Pharisees were indeed all rotten. They had no real interest in God. If they had, they would have accepted God when He showed up as Jesus.

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Well, why was that? Well, because the very necessity of it all he couldn’t understand or he refused to accept. He resented the irresponsibility and rebellion of his younger brother. After all, he was the picture of loyalty, and responsibility, and faithfulness, and obedience. The elder brother saw himself as spiritually sound, if you like, and healthy. Therefore, he couldn’t grasp the reason for which the father so joyfully welcomes the prodigal home, because he couldn’t see that he was as much in need of grace as this useless brother of his.

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Originally Posted by waltero

It’s a wonderful story. And you would think that anybody would want to go to this party, especially his brother. But he refused to go in. Well, why was that? Well, because the very necessity of it all he couldn’t understand or he refused to accept. He resented the irresponsibility and rebellion of his younger brother. After all, he was the picture of loyalty, and responsibility, and faithfulness, and obedience. The elder brother saw himself as spiritually sound, if you like, and healthy. Therefore, he couldn’t grasp the reason for which the father so joyfully welcomes the prodigal home, because he couldn’t see that he was as much in need of grace as this useless brother of his.

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Years ago, a good friend asked me, "I've been a Christian all my life, have attended church regularly, have put my tithe into the offering plate, have made many a casserole for church suppers and picnics, and have raised two childen who pray, praise, and give thanks to the Lord. So I'm supposed to be happy and even excited when I hear about a person who never made a kind or generous effort in his life has, on his death bed, accepted Jesus as his Savior?"

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So I'm supposed to be happy and even excited when I hear about a person who...accepted Jesus as his Savior?"

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God said; you need my Son, believe my Son and when you trust my Son lets party. Let's celebrate. Notice verse 32- we 'had to celebrate' and be glad. We didn't have any option. This wasn't press button B this is the overflow of our lives. Your brother was dead now he is alive he was lost and was found. The Necessity of the celebration is revealed in the fact that God and heaven are concerned with it, when somebody is saved God and heaven rejoice together.

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Originally Posted by waltero

The Necessity of the celebration is revealed in the fact that God and heaven are concerned with it, when somebody is saved God and heaven rejoice together.

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As my friend would then ask, "And that celebration of the son who disappeared and finally returned negates my lifelong devotion that has no disruption?"

The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.
“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

In what way would her lifelong devotion be "negated"?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

In what way would her lifelong devotion be "negated"?

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I asked her that. "Because I have been faithful all my life. Why should he, who confessed Jesus as Lord the last hour of his life, get the same reward that I will? It's not fair!"

Who said he would get the same reward?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Who said he would get the same reward?

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Heaven is the reward.

14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ 16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

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I asked her that. "Because I have been faithful all my life. Why should he, who confessed Jesus as Lord the last hour of his life, get the same reward that I will? It's not fair!"

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Your friend is looking at them in terms of rewards and he missed the point of love and of grace.
You want to live like a slave or do you want to become a slave for Christ Jesus?

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Originally Posted by waltero

Your friend is looking at them in terms of rewards and he missed the point of love and of grace.

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He was a she.

So how would you have responded to her?

Your friend is looking at it in terms of rewards and she missed the point of love and of grace...she might miss out.
Better?

Your "friend" says it's not fair...and it's not fair. It's grace.
Sounds as if your friend is standing in the same shoes as the Prodigal's older brother?

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"I've been a Christian all my life, have attended church regularly, have put my tithe into the offering plate, have made many a casserole for church suppers and picnics, and have raised two childen who pray, praise, and give thanks to the Lord.

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What is she expecting?

Notice what she says, all these years I've been slaving for you and I've never disobeyed your orders. just like the individualist; I have always gone to church I have always kept the ten commandments. I am a good person, and yet you make a fuss about all these people getting saved...why don't you make a fuss about me! The spirit of the Pharisees creeps out in the heart of this woman. They adhered to the rules but they were inwardly estranged from God.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Your friend is looking at them in terms of rewards and she missed the point of love and of grace.
Better?

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And she would have responded to you by saying heaven is our reward for faithfulness. Otherwise, she would have had all sorts of wicked fun during her life and then, on her deadbed, confessed Christ as Savior.

Heaven is not a reward for OUR faithfulness. Heaven is a reward for those saved by grace through faith. The faithfulness we count on is the faithfulness of Jesus to fulfill His word, and thank God eternally for that.

I don't know that your friend ever really knew Jesus. If she did, she would have been overjoyed to have Him as her reward even now, and thrilled to have a sinner saved.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds.

Notice what she says, all these years I've been slaving for you and I've never disobeyed your orders. just like the individualist; I have always gone to church I have always kept the ten commandments. I am a good person, and yet you make a fuss about all these people getting saved...why don't you make a fuss about me! The spirit of the Pharisees creeps out in the heart of this woman. They adhered to the rules but they were inwardly estranged from God.

It’s grace. It’s grace. And the danger is she never understood grace. And in the absence of grace, she has lived with lists, and...

All the religious Joes and the Holy Willy's and the erudite Pharisees hang tough with one another planning their own parties and can't celebrate when a genuine work of grace takes place.

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Heaven is not a reward for OUR faithfulness. Heaven is a reward for those saved by grace through faith. The faithfulness we count on is the faithfulness of Jesus to fulfill His word, and thank God eternally for that.

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Praise God! What else can be said.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I don't know that your friend ever really knew Jesus. If she did, she would have been overjoyed to have Him as her reward even now, and thrilled to have a sinner saved.

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Knowing Jesus is a learning process. That's why we go to church, read and study the Bible, pray without ceasing. I know she did all of those things. I pray she came to an understanding before she died.

Thank you, waltero, for Post #157. It's your most comprehensive and clearest post to date! And I love the last paragraph.

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Knowing Jesus is a learning process.

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Usually having to learn the Hard way. A person will never really "know" Jesus until they come to the end of self.