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I like "analyze properly," but that's just me. The NIV's "correctly handles" is a good one; essentially, in the literal sense it means "cut a straight path" such as when one is making a path through a forest; a straight path is more effective than a meandering one. That's the main reason I like "analyze properly" but your mileage may vary, and that's okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
It worked well enough for the thief on the cross...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Sorry, but everything didn't print.
Was the water just accessible when it flowed from the side of our Lord when He was on the cross? Water is mentioned all through the Bible, and we are told why, we are saved when we are baptized through Christ, in the water. And yes Noah and his family were saved through water, it was water that separated them from the evil of the world. Just as baptism separates us from the world, "keep yourself unspotted from the world," through baptism we are cleansed of the sin we were in when we were "in" the world.
Baptism isn't a work, it is a command.
Jesus was supposed to scoop up water flowing from His side (after He was dead) to baptize the thief on the cross? (After DEATH, the blood separates into water [lymph] and the blood itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Mae II
And when you obey a command, you work. Salvation was God at work. After that, the Holy Spirit works in each of us. We do no work at all, but are simply and mightily infused with grace.Quote:
Baptism isn't a work, it is a command.
Are you a Witness? Knowing that would help us understand where you are coming from.
Baptism is something that requires another human being. My Lord would NEVER place salvation in someone else's hands. The thief on the cross Donna Mae, doesn't count. Want to know why? Because Jesus hadn't resurrected! ( yes, I helped YOUR cause.. not mine) Baptism is a picture of us dying with Christ and being raised again. Incidentally... ever see ANYWHERE where the apostles were baptized? Hmmmmm? Interesting don't you think.. seeing as how you believe it is part of salvation. AND... when Peter told those Jews to repent and be baptized... do you reckon he understood he would need to be baptized again as well? After all, if he was baptized under John ( the baptist), it wasn't at all the same thing at ALL! Remember... Jesus hadn't yet died and rose again. Just something to chew on... or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Mae II
I agree the Lord says to do it.. so it IS a command. I haven't personally met one person who was saved who didn't want to be baptized. I HAVE however, met people who were on their death bed and accepted the Lord Jesus and never even understood anything about a physcial baptism.
Incidentally.. what does God do with people who are physically unable to be baptized? Or all alone?
If the Lord Jesus left one thing up to man... other than belief, we'd all be sunk. Because the last time I checked... we were all just a bunch of sinners in need of a savior.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED.
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth.. the Lord Jesus Christ and shall believe in thine heart that God hath rasied him from the dead.. thou shalt be saved.
One last thing.. then I promise I will shut up... All God did was tell Adam NOT to eat of the tree of knowledge. THAT WAS IT. And he screwed it up... he took a bite!! Come ON... do you really think he is going to leave ANYTHING concerning salvation in man's hands. I mean... seriously.. THINK about it. MAN will ALWAYS screw it up! Adam was proof. That is my story and I'm sticking to it.
Please don't be offended. I'm just giving you something to think about.
I agree with you... a command IS a work. The Lord Jesus ASKS us to remember him in his death and to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
NEITHER of these two acts are for salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.
First of all, please do your commenting in a post, not in the comment box. It's confusing (not that it takes much to confuse me). Second, do you really suppose that what came from his side was H2O? And even supposing it was, what does it have to do with anything?Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Mae II
Are you kidding? It was water that destroyed the world, and the ark "separated them" from the water!Quote:
Water is mentioned all through the Bible, and we are told why, we are saved when we are baptized through Christ, in the water. And yes Noah and his family were saved through water, it was water that separated them from the evil of the world.
So are you saying that once you're baptized you don't sin any more? This makes no sense at all.Quote:
Just as baptism separates us from the world, "keep yourself unspotted from the world," through baptism we are cleansed of the sin we were in when we were "in" the world.
Classy
Yes, I know about the thief, as I said in my response to dwashbur, earlier.
We know that with Christ, anything is possible, that's what grace is all about. Like Christ told Peter, about the disciple whom he loved, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." And we're talking about Jesus, the washing the disciples feet may have been what they needed at that time. When Peter said, "Lord, you shall never wash my feet." Jesus said, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand. Unless I wash you, you will have no part with me." Peter said, "Then Lord, not just my feet but my hands and my head as well."
I mean we're talking about Jesus! He could take care of the disciples how ever he wanted. And they had already received the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, before Peter said," Repent and be baptized..."
As far as someone on their death bed, that is God's grace if they are saved, but if they believe, and have accepted the Lord, then don't you think they would have already known about baptism? Can a person really be saved if all they do is accept Christ and then decide to ignore His teachings, because if the have accept Christ as you said, but don't know anything about Him, how can they be saved? But that's not up to us.
We 'were' all a bunch of sinners needing our Savior, but in order to be free from our sins, we need to be washed as He tells us. If we are not baptized, how do we receive the Holy Spirit? Certainly not by someone laying their hands on us like of churches do. That would definitely be left in the hands of someone else.
"...And now why tariest thou, arise and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, for the remission of sins..." Why would anyone want to wait about something so important? If someone has a chance to wipe every sin from our past, wouldn't we do it in a heartbeat?
Have you considered what is written in James 2:14-25? I think this says a lot about faith and works. I won't quote it all here, but the 14th and 15th verses are very plain--"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
I am certainly not offended, we're talking about Christ, what could be better than that?:)
Wondergirl
No, I am not a Witness. I attend the church of Christ, we study only God's Word.
dwashbur
Sorry about commenting in the post, still getting use to all this new stuff.
Yes it certainly was water (and blood) that flowed from His side. (John 19:34)
God destroyed the world, He just used water to do it. And He wouldn't have done it if their wasn't so much sin in the world. Like baptism, sin was done away with through water.
Of course I'm not saying, that because I have been baptized, I don't sin anymore. No one is without sin. But through baptism we have forgiveness of our sins. Our slate is wiped clean when we are baptized, into Christ, but of course we are going to mess up again, we're human. But God has forgiveness, when we repent.
Not a problem. I've done it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donna Mae II
Actually, basic anatomy and physiology tells us it was serum that accumulated in his pericardium during the intense suffering, not an uncommon phenomenon. After he died, the serum settled in the pericardium and blood pooled in the now-stilled heart. The soldier's spear punctured both, releasing the serum from the pericardium and the blood from the heart. The release of these two body fluids is one of the primary reasons we know he actually died, rather than just passing out like some theories try to claim. There was certainly nothing mystical or spiritual about the fluid that came out. John described it as water because that was what it looked like, nothing more.Quote:
Yes it certainly was water (and blood) that flowed from His side. (John 19:34)
You're using "through" in a different way than Peter did, as I already mentioned.Quote:
God destroyed the world, He just used water to do it. And He wouldn't have done it if their wasn't so much sin in the world. Like baptism, sin was done away with through water.
I'm also going to splice a couple of things in from another post:
Are you trying to say he baptized them in this way? Let's let Jesus himself explain what he was doing:Quote:
And we're talking about Jesus, the washing the disciples feet may have been what they needed at that time. When Peter said, "Lord, you shall never wash my feet." Jesus said, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand. Unless I wash you, you will have no part with me." Peter said, "Then Lord, not just my feet but my hands and my head as well."
Foot washing was done by the lowliest servant, because it was such an icky job. Jesus, their lord and master, stooped down to wash their feet, taking such a role. Why? To illustrate that we are all servants of each other, and should act like it. That's what the foot-washing was all about, as he says in verse 15: "I have set you an example that you should so as I have done for you." It has nothing to do with baptism or salvation or anything else. It has to do with Christian service.Quote:
12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them."
That's easy: by believing. That's what happened with Cornelius and his household in Acts 10:Quote:
If we are not baptized, how do we receive the Holy Spirit?
Receiving the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with baptism, either. In fact, in this example, being baptized is a public acknowledgment that they ALREADY received the Holy Spirit. And so it goes.Quote:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
At this point I'm prepared to drop this subject and agree to be siblings in Christ with a difference of opinion. What do you say?
Donna Mae,
According to Ephesians we are sealed with the Holy spirit when we believe.
Ephesians 1:13
James Bible
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I never have changed anyone's mind on the subject but I would like to say that God will never go outside of His word. If baptism IS required for salvation, no one is getting into heaven without it.
Of course I have considered what James has said. Again, it must be put into context and when someone is truly saved... they will produce good works. No two ways about it. Check out the prophecy in Ezekiel
Check it out.:Ezekiel 36:26-27
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
The Holy Spirit causes us to WANT to please the Lord Jesus. I think that is just awesome. What a SAVIOR.
My friend that I spoke of earlier was also from the Church of Christ. They had some great teachings.. I learned a lot at the Bible studies. It was such a shame they didn't accept me as saved. I am! I was even baptized, I just refused to admit it had anything to do with my salvation.
Anyway, like Dave said we can still agree to disagree. Heck Donna Mae, NO ONE agrees with everything I say anyway. Ha ha Can't figure it out either?? I think I'm darn smart.
Dave,
Wanted to say I'm still working on the verse in Galatians 6:16 where Paul uses the term Israel of God. I won't be satisfied until the Lord reveals to me why Paul uses that term. I'll let you know if I ever get enlightened but I pretty darn sure it isn't because he is finished with Israel and we are blended.
I better stay on topic... the OP is a stickler for not having her questions hijacked. :D
dwashbur & Classy
I agree. None of us will change our beliefs. I'm ready to drop it. I have to say, I enjoy the discussions and I think you guys are very nice. My prayers are for every one of us to find the true path to Jesus.
When I check it out, I see a very definite relationship between man and God. This relationship is similar to one of the son (or daughter) to the father, a family relationship. In any family, it is through the will of the father that life is given to the children. Throughout their lives he educates and disciplines his brood. The education supplies the knowledge necessary to become productive members of the family; the discipline strengthens the children's steadfastness, resolution, and perseverance to their devotion to the father's will as well as the family.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Christ's life typifies this relationship; a synergy of faith and work. Christ didn't simply listen to God; he was a “doer” of God's words. The same advice James gives us, “[W]ith meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was.” (James 1:21-24).
An “ingrafted word” is works of a synergistic relationship of faith and work. Not simply a faith that 'produces' robot like responses, repeated over and over, rather a consummated relation - as it were, fulfilling of the law. You do recall, Christ said he didn't “come to destroy the law, or the prophets. Rather he came to fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17). Not a faith that leaves us helpless but to respond like a robot with pre-programmed responses. Rather more like an adopted son of God who merges his relationship with God's will. You've heard it said that any relationship takes two, thus we find ourselves persevering with fear and trembling to work out your salvation.
Check it out.
JoeT
Why did satan try to make Him sin in the desert?
St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica discusses a similar question (Cf. Tertia Pars, Q41)Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
What motivates Satan to tempt Christ we will likely never be known. We do know however that he tempted Adam who ultimately fell in death bequeathing us death. We also know that in His humanity Jesus allowed himself to be tempted, “Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil.” (Matt 4:1) This was done to bequeath life. St. Thomas discusses this issue, i.e. why would Christ allow himself to be tempted which seems more germane in this thread.
First: "It was not unworthy of our Redeemer to wish to be tempted, since He came also to be slain. By His temptations He conquered our temptations, just as His death He overcame our death. who came also to be slain; in order that by His temptations He might conquer our temptations, just as by His death He overcame our death." (xvi in Evang.):
Second: A perfect lamb, Christ stands as conquer over physical death and spiritual death. “The temptations of the devil assail those principally who are sanctified, for he desires, above all, to overcome the holy. (Hilary, Super Matth. cap. iii.): Hence also it is written (Sirach 2): Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation." Thus St. Thomas suggests that the devil was compelled to tempt the holiest among us, the New Adam. Christ triumphs over sin to show His love for us being an example of our hope.
Third: in order to give us an example "that He might be our Mediator in overcoming temptations, not only by helping us, but also by giving us an example." (De Trin. iv)
Fourth: in order to fill us with confidence in His mercy. Hence it is written (Hebrews 4:15): "We have not a high-priest, who cannot have compassion on our infirmities, but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin."
Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz, A Shepherd Speaks, 1997, picks up on this theme and warns, “The same order of temptation was used by Satan in tempting Jesus. First, there was the taunt and enticement to pleasure in regard to bread. Then there followed the appeal to vainglory on the pinnacle of the temple and, finally, the appeal to pride in all the kingdoms of the world.” The Bishop continues suggesting that we are not immune to this same approach by Satan through temptation. Satan entices with pleasure then moves to ratchets up the enticements offering power ; notching it up still further, tempts with material gain then our enemy moves us pervert God's will by replacing it with our own.
Christ gives us a living example of supreme valor in a face-to-face battle with evil while placing us behind the defended walls of His Kingdom giving His very Body, Soul and Divinity which sustains us in hope.
JoeT
1 Peter 1:19 calls him a lamb without blemish. Yet in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 he says:"Why do you call me good? No-one is good except God alone." I struggle to know what sin is exactly. How far must you go to be perfect? Jesus was a man too. He often got so drained that he had to take time for himself. And before his death he was scared and pleaded for a way out. So is it sinful to be human? I think he acknowledged that his human capacity to give was limited but he gave everything he had to the point of death. He was a divine being trapped in a human body. When it came to his spiritual and psychological will, he sought nothing for himself short of survival and he even pushed through this last barrier which made him the lamb without blemish.
I'm not arguing with the above, but just want to add a thought or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777;
[B
The very fact of temptation shows the possibility of yielding to it. Jesus COULD have sinned, but did not, as has already likely been pointed ouit.
As for the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, may I add some thoughts?
In the first one, the question is IF you are the Son of God----. Had Jesus yielded and turned stones into bread, it would have been proof that He did not believe what the Father had just told Him, the sin of unbelief. The voice from Heaven at Jesus' baptism said (either) This is my beloved Son, or Thou art my beloved Son.
When God says something, it is not necessary to do something to prove it. Just believe it.
The test on the pinnacle of the Temple again sought to get Jesus to "prove" His identity by the sin of presumption.
Finally, Satan offered Jesus a "shortcut" if He would worship Satan.
After all, Christ will indeed rule all the kingdoms of the world in due time.
What Satan offered in his usual lying manner was a shortcut. No Gesthemane, no beating in Pilate's hall, and no cross to die on.
Satan also tempts believers on the same points from time to time.
It depends on what you mean by sin. Sin has more than one meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
1st and most common meaning is to offend God by going against His Will. Since Jesus is God whatever He does is automatically God's will. So that couldn't happen. Such as, for instance, the law of the Sabbath when He announced to the world:
Matthew 12:8
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
2nd meaning of sin is to violate a human law or precept. Since Jesus is God, He is beyond these and could not sin if He violated these precepts. Which in fact, He regularly violated. And this is why He said:
Matthew 15
1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Have I understood your question?
2 Cor. 5:21 "God made Him who had no sin {Jesus} for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God."
Jesus was not born from the sin nature of Adam, but was conceived
by the Holy Spirit. Everyone that was every borned, but Jesus, was borned with the sin nature of Adam. It was Jesus' sinless blood
that washed away our sin, the only one that had no sin and the power.
1 John 3, 5 "But you know that He appeared so that He might take away Our sin. And in Him is no sin."
vs 9, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed
remains in him; he has been born of God".
Love and Blessings, Maggie 3
How could Jesus be tempted if it was impossible for Him to fail the temptation? That makes no sense at all.
I submit this for your consideration:
1 John 4:2 tells us that every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the FLESH is of God, and conversely in v.3.
Flesh means just like us.
On the contrary, the fact that Satan tempted Jesus shows that Satan believed Jesus' might succumb to temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
The difference is this. You might want to tempt me to eat "caviar". However, I've tasted caviar and I detest the taste. Therefore, no matter how much you tempt me with caviar, I won't be tempted.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it does. And Scripture also says:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So, Christ was tempted. But Christ did not sin. We can look at the agony in the Garden for more clues:
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Here we see that Jesus Christ had a will of His own. But He subdued His Will to the Father's.
We also see here that He was tempted to do His own Will to the extent that He asked the Father's permission to do so. Apparently, the Father did not grant the request.
So, in my opinion, Jesus could be tempted, but because He is God, He could not fall.
Sincerely,
In the discussion at hand, no, it doesn't make sense to me, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Heb. 4:15 tells us that Jesus was tempted in all points like we are, but that He did not sin. The temptations here had to be a solicitation to evil, otherwise the "yet without sin" has no meaning.
In an earlier post you said that we may never know why Satan tempted Jesus. The answer is not that difficult to understand.
According to the Bible, scripture cannot be broken. If Satan could break the Word of God in any point, he (Satan) could claim victory and avoid being sent to the Lake of Fire. When Satan tempted Jesus, he was fighting for his life. Satan lost, praise God!!
That just means that you are looking at Jesus from Satan's point of view. I agree that Satan thought that Jesus could succumb to sin. Therefore, he acted in accordance with his belief and tempted Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
However, from our point of view, Jesus is God and beyond sin. Therefore God is made flesh and like us in every BUT SIN. This is why Scripture says:
James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
However, Satan does not know God as we do, that is why Scripture says:
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
They know He exists but do not know that He is ALL GOOD.
God is all good.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is all good.
Therefore Jesus can not sin.
Sir Nitpick sez:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Um, no. In its historical context, this verse was addressing a fairly new heresy that said Jesus wasn't really man, he only seemed to be. When John said "has come in the flesh" he's saying Jesus was truly human and truly God at the same time. That doesn't really mean "just like us."
I sez: oh, shut up, Nitpick!
I see you use a tongue-in-cheek method to point out the fact that spiritually, Jesus certainly is NOT like us.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I think you got that I am saying that he was actually a human being in His incarnation, and therefore overcame sin while He was in the flesh. Since He has sent the HOLY GHOST to us, to be with us and within us, that makes us able to overcome sin while in OUR flesh.
Sir Nitpick is my alter ego who doesn't know when to shut his yap!Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I'm divided on the question of whether Jesus could have sinned or not. I can see good points and bad points in both sides. I therefore take shelter in my all-time favorite answer:
Idunno.
De Maria, I think you are missing something in the incarnation.
God the Son became Man. In doing so, He temporarialy gave up the attributes of Deity, that is, He was no longer omnipresent. This is obvious.
What is less obvious is that He also gave up omniscience, and omnipotence.
Jesus consistently said that He was giving the Father's words and doing the Father's works.
Peter tells us that he was a MAN full of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said at the start of His ministry that the Spirit of the Lord was upon Him.
If He had the attributes of Deity within Himself at that time, He did not need the Holy Spirit to empower Him.
He became a man so that we could becme the sons of God, and with the giving of the Holy Ghost on that day of Pentecost, the same power that Jesus relied on become available to the most humble believer.
galveston, I think Part of what you are saying is in Phi. 2:5-8 and
Col. 1:17-20
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Hi Maggie and Galveston,Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Colossians 1:17-20 (King James Version)
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
The same author says both that Jesus emptied Himself and that the fullness of God dwelt in Jesus. The same author also says that Jesus was made perfect by suffering on the Cross.
So, I don't try to interpret this set of facts myself. They appear contradictory. Therefore I go by the teaching of the Church through the centuries. And the Church has consistently taught that Jesus could not sin because He is God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I go with the part of what Jakester said in a very early post in this thread (my bolding) --
...was it possible for Jesus to sin? I think that since the opportunities to sin for Jesus were presented through the trials of Satan, the "possibility" for Jesus to sin must have been a reality...if not, why would the temptations of Satan to Christ have even occurred? I think it was possible for Jesus to sin but if he had sinned, the rest of God's story would not be what it is...he would have told a different story.
Another question may be raised at this point. If Jesus were not capable of sin and yet the possibility of Jesus sinning were a reality, what was the point of the trials Jesus faced? Hebrews makes the case that in order for Jesus to be a qualified high priest, he needed to be able to empathize with us in our struggles against sin. He can be a more effective High Priest because he has come face to face with temptation, felt the stings of it (consider how Jesus was hungry and weak while Satan came to tempt him), and yet was able to still do the right thing and obey God.
And I might add that the high priestly quality of Jesus is what sets him apart from all other "Gods." No other religion can boast of a God who was so thoroughly intimate with the human experience that he became human, faced the temptations of sin, knew sorrow and pain, and in the end chose to be merciful to those who killed him.
Those Scriptures are not contridictory at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Think about the role that the Holy Ghost played in the life of Jesus and you should be able to see how Jesus could be actually a man and yet have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him.
The Scriptures do say that Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure.
King James Version--Phi 2:7 "but made himself of no reputation..."
This phrase in Greek is Kenoo, or literally, "he empitied Himself."
When Jesus came as a Man, He was still divine. He emptied Himself
Of His divine powers.The implication of the "doctrine of kenosis"
Are huge, because this means that everything Jesus did, the miracles,
The prayers He prayed, the teaching He gave was not done in His own
Power. Jesus healed and prayed and taught through the power of
Holy Spirit as He followed the Father's directives. I did not
Comperhend that Jesus came to earth and empitied Himself of His
Divine abilities, which means everything Jesus did, He did as a man
Just like us. Before He did anything, Jesus had to be obedient to the
Father, pray to put Himself on line to be empowered by the Spirit,
Or nothing would happen. That's why He said, "Of my own self, I can do nothing" {John 5:30] and neither can we. This has changed how I think
About the things Jesus did, no big deal to hear Jesus walked on water,
This was irrelevant to me. But He was doing this in the
Power we all can have, the Holy Spirit. This is an example for us.
Jesus could have sinned, and things could have been different, but
I know He did not because things would be different today if He did.
Phi. 2:7, 'And took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in
The likeness of men." This is the mind that's to be in us, where we
Empty ourselves of our rights, and become servants or slaves of God.
Maggie
I didn't say they were. I said they appear contradictory. Two different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Ah, yes. But Galveston, I believe the Church. And the Church says that Jesus is fully God and fully man and that He resurrected Himself of His own power.Quote:
Think about the role that the Holy Ghost played in the life of Jesus and you should be able to see how Jesus could be actually a man and yet have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in Him.
The Scriptures do say that Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure.
And the Church teaches that Jesus Divinity can't be separated from His humanity.
Phil 2:7-8 Douay Rheims
[7] But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. [8] He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
Philippians 2:7-8 (King James Version)
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
If we go by the adage that Scripture interprets Scripture and read the next line, I believe the meaning is clear. Jesus HUMBLED Himself. He did not leave His Divinity behind. He is both man and God but He took on the role of a man. But since He is also God, Jesus can not sin.
Because He was a man, He could sin. Otherwise, His life here on earth and His sacrifice on the cross were pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Philippians 2:7-8 (King James Version)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
I think "emptied Himself" simply means "humbled Himself".
I also believe He did everything as a man just like us. But He didn't empty Himself of His Divinity.Quote:
The implication of the "doctrine of kenosis"
Are huge, because this means that everything Jesus did, the miracles,
The prayers He prayed, the teaching He gave was not done in His own
Power. Jesus healed and prayed and taught through the power of
Holy Spirit as He followed the Father's directives. I did not
Comperhend that Jesus came to earth and empitied Himself of His
Divine abilities, which means everything Jesus did, He did as a man
Just like us.
You are not under the impression, I hope, that while Jesus is Divine He can be disobedient to the Father?Quote:
Before He did anything, Jesus had to be obedient to the
Father,
Because God is a Trinity. Jesus is always accompanied by the Trinity. He is never alone.Quote:
pray to put Himself on line to be empowered by the Spirit,
Or nothing would happen. That's why He said, "Of my own self, I can do nothing" {John 5:30]
No we can't. But for different reasons. Have you not heard that "in Him we live, move and are"?Quote:
and neither can we.
I disagree. Jesus could not have sinned. He has always been God.Quote:
This has changed how I think
About the things Jesus did, no big deal to hear Jesus walked on water,
This was irrelevant to me. But He was doing this in the
Power we all can have, the Holy Spirit. This is an example for us.
Jesus could have sinned, and things could have been different, but
I know He did not because things would be different today if He did.
Those are great goals. I'm not kidding. Catholicism teaches that one can seek the Goodness of God because it is worthwhile. And God promised it to those who obey. And God keeps His promises. Therefore, to look at oneself as a servant who works to obtain the promises is just fine.Quote:
Phi. 2:7, 'And took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in
The likeness of men." This is the mind that's to be in us, where we
Empty ourselves of our rights, and become servants or slaves of God.
Maggie
And Catholicism teaches that fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Therefore to seek the Goodness of God because one consider himself God's slave is equally good.
But there is one which excels all others. To seek God because one loves God. This excels over all other ways and makes one a child of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Why? He showed us the way to heaven. Obedience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
None of the verses you posted say we are saved by obedience. We are saved only by Jesus' blood, and not by any activity that we do. Eph.2:8,9 says grace is a gift of God and not of our own doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I believe it was to show Satan's arrogance and God's power over Satan. He knew who Jesus was. The Son of God. But still believed that he could cause Him to sin. But the Godman proved that Satan could not tempt Him.
You know, temptation is a funny word. For example, you can tempt me with some hot tea. The kind they give you at Chinese restaurants. But I am not tempted by hot tea. I find it disgusting.
So, Satan may have tempted Jesus in the sense that he offered something to Jesus. But Jesus was not tempted by the offers.
Hebrews says "in everyway but sin".Quote:
Another question may be raised at this point. If Jesus were not capable of sin and yet the possibility of Jesus sinning were a reality, what was the point of the trials Jesus faced? Hebrews makes the case that in order for Jesus to be a qualified high priest, he needed to be able to empathize with us in our struggles against sin. He can be a more effective High Priest because he has come face to face with temptation, felt the stings of it (consider how Jesus was hungry and weak while Satan came to tempt him), and yet was able to still do the right thing and obey God.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Well that's true. But that doesn't mean that Jesus could have committed sin. And in the end, the proof is in the pudding. Jesus did not sin. So the question is moot.Quote:
And I might add that the high priestly quality of Jesus is what sets him apart from all other "Gods." No other religion can boast of a God who was so thoroughly intimate with the human experience that he became human, faced the temptations of sin, knew sorrow and pain, and in the end chose to be merciful to those who killed him.
Sincerely,
So, then everyone is saved. Party and do what you want. You don't have to obey God to be saved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
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