sndbay,
I think Joe did a good job answering what you asked me.
I still believe what the bible says about you and me and others, we are all sinners.
Please tell us all, do you think or believe that you never sin?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
|
sndbay,
I think Joe did a good job answering what you asked me.
I still believe what the bible says about you and me and others, we are all sinners.
Please tell us all, do you think or believe that you never sin?
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, Do you realize what the Word of God says about willful sin. I suffer myself each day in this troubled world surrounded by sin. But I deny myself, and walk having the spirit, not walking after the lust of this world in sin. We that do walk in the spirit, hold a full awareness in faith that by God power we are kept in the light of righteousness, grace and truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Would you say the spirit could or would lead anyone to sin?
Scripture says we have liberty. Liberty to chose whether we follow Chist in righteousness and love for mankind, or satan in sin of the flesh.
We are warned in not taking that liberty to walk in lust of the flesh, but rather walk in love, a perfect law that serves as Christ did to the Father in glory and unto man on this earth. (Gal 5:13)
Review: (1 Peter 1:3 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time)
James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Go read of the strong meat in which Joe spoke of eating. (Hebrew 5:12-13-14)
~enlightened through the Spirit
No Fred,I am no longer a sinner but walk having the spirit. All glory unto God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Being no holier than thou or probably no greater a sinner than you, I have a hard time understanding this. What it seems to be saying is that you would rather sin but you deny yourself a perceived benefit sin might offer. Although I walk in that same said world my view is different. It’s been my experience that not sinning a gain of certain freedoms, and conversely sinning is to lose a certain freedoms. Thus the more temptations I turn away from the freer my actions and thoughts become, i.e. I gain - and we call this merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
To walk in the spirit translates to my way of thinking as being holy. Holiness seems to have scale. That is, we can be a little bit holy or we can be a lot holy, i.e. saintly. Obviously the better of the two states is to be saintly. We that walk in the spirit (or in holiness) are not assured righteousness or grace or truth, rather we merit holiness – God’s returning love, which is a grace that builds on itself. And we merit it the same way as when you try to please your pop, who in return would compliment with a heartfelt pat on the head returning your obedient love. What chains us to our obedience or discipline of faith is our love of God, we shoulder these chains willingly with gusto – these chains lift us up. This is best understood as the same obedience of love the bride has for the groom, she submits to the demands of groom for no other reason but her love. Conversely, your way would be to suggest that obedience or discipline of faith uses fear to chain us to God; the bride now becomes a slave girl submitting out of fear of stripes. Boy, your God is hard.
I thought we had a One-ness of faith by just simply believing in the book?
JoeT
What about "unity"?
The unity spoken of by Paul was not visible unity, but one of the Spirit. Basically that we should all teach the same doctrine.
I read with interest your account of the charismatic movement within the Catholic Church. And you are right, everything must conform to the written Word of God, or Satan just might inject some of his own teaching into the mix.
I notice that in all of your appeals for unity, the only way that can be achieved is for the rest of us to accept the Pope as the undisputed leader of all Christendom.
There is never any indication that your side will give an inch.
Of course, those who believe as I do will never accept many of the Catholic dogmas. They are extra-Biblical and therefore false, in our eyes.
Now, if you will just give those ideas up, we may be able to move toward unity. (Hey, why should we do all the giving up?)
Catholics believe that there is one body (a mystical body of Christ), one Church. As an adult is to be baptized is a doorway into that Church with a unity of faith:Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. ...
Paul was no slacker when it came to a unity of faith, a unity of spirit, i.e. Church. John however tells of Christ’s beckoning to unity, not only for the Twelve and other disciples but for all the faithful:
And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as you, Father, in me, and I in you; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you have given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. I in them, and you in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them, as you have also loved me. Father, I will that where I am, they also whom you have given me may be with me: that they may see my glory which you have given me, because you have loved me before the creation of the world. Just Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you. And these have known that you have sent me. And I have made known your name to them and will make it known: that the love wherewith you have loved me may be in them, and I in them. (John 17:20 seqq.)
We believe that the fullness of faith resides in the Church. So to answer your question directly, yes unity in its fullest can only be realized in the Catholic Church.Quote:
I notice that in all of your appeals for unity, the only way that can be achieved is for the rest of us to accept the Pope as the undisputed leader of all Christendom. There is never any indication that your side will give an inch.
Can’t give an inch, or a foot, or a yard, or a mile of something that’s not ours; that is to say, the Church is Christ’s Kingdom, not ours.
Ok, but I don’t recall asking you to, though the door is always open. But either way, her doctrine are neither extra biblical nor false. I can’t help you with your vision, you might try glasses – worked wonders for me.Quote:
Of course, those who believe as I do will never accept many of the Catholic dogmas. They are extra-Biblical and therefore false, in our eyes.
JoeT
sndbay,
That IS interesting.
I know of no person other than Jesus Christ whom did not and does not sin.
Now you come along and claim that you do not commit any sin.
Pardon me but I do not believe you.
The bible says that we all are sinners.
I believe the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Obvious by your thoughts, putting on the new man as written in Eph 4:24 is a perhaps choice, if the scale would stay balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The parable written by Luke, and spoken by Christ tells a different story and is one of truth.
This example the new man, but some are blinded to the understanding of parables.
Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish
Notice there is no scale in this concept of newly made being capable to survive with old. The old man is the same concept, he can not please God and that is why we suffer in obedience and love to walk having the spirit to put on the new man.
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
And as scripture indicates man does not desire to suffer himself in walking without sinning(having the spirit of truth and grace), yet Christ told us to follow HIM, follow HIS footsteps that includes in righteousness, and love.
I assure everyone loving Christ is easy, and done above all things.
~in Christ
Joe you obviously cut off the one drink( into One Spirit )Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Is it because you also realize that scripture says that the One Spirit is the spiritual drink that is the Rock Christ Jesus
That would put the idea that the Catholic religion believe they drink of their spiritual rock Peter/Pope.
And scripture says when we are baptized we are buried with Christ
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Instead you believe baptism is a doorway into the Catholic fellowship, and unity in drinking the spiritual rock Peter/Pope.
No the scriptures say we were once cursed and doomed by death in sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You have of your own free will, chosen to obey satan in sin when you obey the flesh.
And we were once cursed, but Christ set us free. What Adam and Eve once did in the garden was changed.
James 1:5 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
I have told you before, we as children of God can not eat at the table of satan and also then expect to eat at the Lord's table.
1 Corthinians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
You would rather that I would be a child of satan's?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
No thanks Fred, I will speak in the spirit of truth and grace.
[B]1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I am begotten again in Christ! (born of God)adopted as a child of God.
Do you really believe scripture lies to us? Whoever is born of God can not sin! let no man deceive you (1 John3:7)
Re: Unitiy.
I am not questioning any man's testimony. If you say you are saved, I have no right to say you are not.
Now, Joe, Fred, Sndbay, and myself all say we are saved.
Being saved makes us a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.
Baptism into ANY church cannot do that because the Bible tells us that baptism is the answer of a good conscience, and you cannot have a good conscience toward God unless you are saved already.
So you see that we already have that unity that Jesus prayed for.
Do you really think ALL Catholics, or whatever denomination are saved?
Not so!
If you admit to that truth, then you have to admit that baptism into your church does NOT save, otherwise everyone baptised into it are saved.
I am trying to show you that as a believer, you are living far below what Jesus provided for His followers.
Why don't youi check it out with Him with an open heart and mind?
What have you got to lose?
sndbay,
First of all you are like many. You DO NOT understand the Catholic faith.
We drink and eat Jesus Christ not the pope or anyone else.
Jesus said "This IS my blood" --- "this Is my flesh"---My blood is drink indeed"---"My flesh is food indeed" ----
"Those who eat may flesh and drink my blood I WILL raise them up on the last day"
No you are wrong about that also the bible does say that no one is sinless, "NO NOT ONE"
That includes you and me.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
How can we rightly comprehend God's truth? His goal is that we desire
To comprehend and fully understand His truth. God has given to all
Believers a divine Person who helps us to receive and understand the
Truth. The Holy Spirit, who perfectly knows the mind of God (1 Cor.2
:10) and who receives and communicates to our spirit, the truth God
Wants our understanding to grow in. He wants us to grasp His majesty,
His holiness, His power, His love, His grace, and His joy. When we begin
To comperhend these mighty truths about the person of God, we find
Our lives enriched, enabled, and energized. Our ultimate aim in life
Must be to know Christ Jesus. God wants us to know our position and
Who we are in Christ. Since we are one with Christ, all His divine privileges become ours. His righteousness is ours because He
Abides in us. His wisdom and His sanctification we can now accept .
Love and blessings, Maggie 3
Somehow you've gotten the wrong impression. Catholics hold that the Mystical Body of Christ is the Church, it includes the lay, priests, bishops, and Pope. The population consists of those baptized, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; both sinners and the holy are included. This is only the beginning of an individual's journey; it doesn't offer any assurance of being 'saved'. That type of theology is Luther's, not Christ's.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
No, I'm afraid I don't see. The call for unity isn't the simple call to say 'Lord, Lord'. Many make that call, not all are 'saved'Quote:
So you see that we already have that unity that Jesus prayed for.
Again, Catholics or Protestants, or Evangelist, or those who cry 'Lord, Lord' are [not] given assurance of being saved, baptized or otherwise. I hold, as do Catholics that we are to cooperate with the salvific graces given us all, these include the sacraments of the Church. Thus, we strive for holiness in our lives. To some it comes early and easy, to others it comes hard and late in life – sometimes so late as to be on the deathbed.Quote:
Do you really think ALL Catholics, or whatever denomination are saved? If you admit to that truth, then you have to admit that baptism into your church does NOT save, otherwise everyone baptized into it are saved.
To me, to be 'saved' in the Protestant sense that is receiving an absolute assurance of salvation and that sin no longer merits judgment received by the ritual of 'walking the isle' seems meaningless. It's kind of like the man who refuses to work, has never worked, and will never work yet demands entitlement to subsistence from the government. Catholics work for their sustenance in faith in cooperation with the same graces given all. We persevere with fear and trembling to work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12)
Good grief! What do I have to lose? Only my soul!Quote:
I am trying to show you that as a believer, you are living far below what Jesus provided for His followers. Why don't you check it out with Him with an open heart and mind? What have you got to lose?
If you see that as being close-minded, then so be it. I can suffer a little 'close-mindedness' in this life to benefit the next.
Look, the way I envision the situation is that you and I spiritually reside on two different ships of faith sailing on the high seas of life. My boat rides high above the water powered by the great engine of the Holy Spirit, has a captain, first mate, helmsman, crew and passengers. Under sail everybody has his place and duty; discipline and order abounds for the good of all aboard. The captain orders the direction, when to batten down the hatches, and when to tack against the wind. Real bread and meat is served at every meal, washed down with a heady spiritual wine. Our mission is to cast out nets and haul in fish. It seems the more that we bring on board the larger the ship becomes, so it's quite roomy. Passage is free as longe as you are disciplined enough to follow the captain's lead.
Your boat by comparison seems to ride low in the water, with water topping gunwale, powered by the occupants paddling with their feet, there seems to be as much water in the boat as outside, everybody on board is the captain, nobody is crew, there doesn't seem to be a helm, and most of the passengers have drowned below decks, direction is happenstance based on how many are paddling on the port side versus the starboard side at any given moment, and order is the state of mind. Spiritual meals are symbols with deferred nourishment based on empty promises washed down with Cool Aid.
Gee thanks, I'll pass.
JoeT
JoeT,
I agree.
There is NO biblical absolute assurance of salvation.
Luther was wrong about that as are those who follow his misguided teaching.
There is thew biblical HOPE OF SALVATION which is an expectation of salvation.
I expect to be saved as do many but only the final judge can tell us whether we are saved or not.
Faith which is a work and any other works are refined to be pure for those who are saved or to be saved. That is after we pass from this mortal realm.
In the mean time it is our job to do as much pre-refining of our souls as possible.
But being imperfect humans we can not do a perfect job of that, but we MUST try for that is what proves our faith.
Luther wanted to leave the book of James out of the bible for it taught other than what Luther tried to teach and of that what far to many still wrongly believe.
Of that, it is one of the reasons Jesus establish HIS Church.
That is to help guide us in these later days after His resurrection for the correct interpretation of His words and those of His apostles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Our One Hope is Christ Jesus. Do you find HIM in worthiness to save us?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The reason why a person might not feel they are saved is because they desire the way of sin that keeps them walking in darkness. The lust of the flesh that belongs to the old man that can't please God.
It is written instead that in love and obedience, the good conscience toward God, and the circumcised heart, does bring us as one with Christ Jesus and the Father in Heaven. We rest in Christ Jesus through One Faith. The confessed love and belief in the begotten Son of God. We are raised in baptism from being buried with Christ, as He was raised from the dead. People that sin remain dead, doomed and unable to be one with Christ. Sin is death.
Hebrew 6:11-12 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of HIM that created him
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Concluded Truth
2 Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
~in Christ
Realize what happen on the cross to the old man that couldn't please God.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Scripture is spoken in Truth, and if you are not dead with Christ on the cross, then it is because you do not believe sin was destroyed in you, and you choose to cintinue serving sin.
I believe in the Spirit of Truth, and what was inspired through the Holy Spirit to be written " The Word of God which is the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ"Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow ME: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
~Rest in Christ
sndbay
Keep it up all that you want to, but there is no absolute biblical assurance of salvation.
Only God on judgment day can provide that.
We are all sinners. ALL OF US.
And that must be dealt with.
Jesus took punishment for our sinfulness to the cross and grave IF we do all as told in the Gospels.
Do you know anyone who has done that fully and completely?
I know some who have tried, but I do not know for sure if they succeeded.
ONLY God knows.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Dear Fred,
I am copying a text by Fritz Tuttle, a Catholic Teologian
Jesus Christ Established a Visible Church On Earth
Every Christian believes that Jesus Christ established and sustains a community of faith, hope and love for all believers. This community we call His Church. The Church that Christ founded is the Catholic Church which has a formal earthly structure established by Christ and which continues under His authority and protection.
In the Old Testament we see God's continual involvement in the lives of the Israelites through appointed prophets. God delivered, instructed and admonished the Israelites. He made His motions in a visible, specific and formal way. He always did so through human hands, mouths, feet, minds and wills. God established a law and a means for executing it.
In concert with His redemptive act, Jesus did three things that established the framework of His Church. First, He chose humans to carry out His work. He appointed Peter to be the visible head of the Church. Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18) Jesus said "build," as in to create a structure. Jesus built His structure on specifically chosen human beings Peter and the apostles.
Second, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles the power and authority to carry out His work. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven."(Matthew 16:19; 18:18) "Receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained."(John 20:23)
Third, Jesus gave Peter and the apostles commands as to what that work should be. At the last supper, He commanded, "Do this in memory of Me." (Luke 22:19) He commanded them to "Make disciples of all nations" (Matthew 28:19), and to "Go into the whole world and proclaim the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)
The early Church was structured in a hierarchical manner as it is today. We see in Acts, chapter 15 how the apostles and the elders came together under the leadership of St. Peter to decide the question of what was required of Gentiles. We also see how St. Peter was regarded as the head of the Church when St. Paul, "Went up to Jerusalem to confer with Kephas [Peter] and remained with him fifteen days." (Galatians 1:18) There is no Scriptural evidence of independent local churches.
The Catholic Church is the only church that can claim to have been founded by Christ personally. Every other church traces its lineage back to a mere human person such as Martin Luther or John Wesley. The Catholic Church can trace its lineage back to Jesus Christ who appointed St. Peter as the first pope. This line of popes has continued unbroken for almost 2,000 years.
God rules, instructs and sanctifies His people through His Church. Under her teaching office, the Catholic Church preserves the Word of God. She is the custodian, keeper, dispenser and interpreter of teachings of Christ. And she accomplishes this under the protection of the Holy Spirit.
I do not know whether this is the right answer you are looking for.
Incidentally, would you send me a mail. I've been sending you mails to your address which have been returtned to me. Thanks. Gromitt82
I couldn’t agree more. I particularly like his last paragraph.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
On another matter, I think Fritz Tuttle is an apologist with the Legion of Mary, not a theologian. I could be wrong; I’ve only run across some of his work a few times.
JoeT
You are right. And I was wrong. He is at present with the Legion of Mary. Thanks for the correction
gromitt82,
Very good.
By the way, I have not heard from you lately and I've lost your e-mail address.
Please send me a e-mail so I will again have it.
Pax Christi,
Fred
My e-mail address is: [email protected] and the reason you haven't heard from me is because I keep sending you mails which are returned. I still use the same address I had which is: [email protected]Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Have you changed it?
Claude
So because I am not a member of the RCC I am NOT saved?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Wrong!
How do I know that I am saved?
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(KJV)
Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(KJV)
These and other Scriptures prove that we CAN know that we are saved.
I know, do you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I can't read - so I can't be saved? I guess if you rationalize away a few verses I could get the Bible to say that "JoeT has hair on top of his head." Which of course is as far from the truth as you can get.
More important, you apparently didn’t read what I said, but yet you want to argue about what I didn’t say. Ok, let’s argue; if you argue as good as you read this ought to be easy.
What was said was that there is no ‘assurance’ of being saved. Simply bearing witness doesn’t do it either. It’s God’s judgment over a life’s merit in its perseverance with fear and trembling working out its salvation. (Cf. Phil 2:12)
JoeT
Sorry Joe, I DID read what you wrote, and it is clear that you believe that the only way to Heaven is through the RCC.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Go back to my previous post and think about the Scripture. Or does Scripture matter?
BTW, It isn't Luther's theology, it is Biblical theology.
As to Phil 2:12, that cannot mean that we are saved by works, because the same Paul that wrote phil. 2:12 ALSO wrote:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)
This is a case of needing the Holy Spirit to understand the Word. Paul also wrote:
2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
(KJV)
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I wondered why you didn't provide the quote. It was because I didn't say 'the only way to heaven is through the RCC'. I will argue that it is like trying to pass a camel through the eye of a needle. But, it would have been wrong for me to make that assertion. What I did say was, “We believe that the fullness of faith resides in the Church. So to answer your question directly, yes unity in its fullest can only be realized in the Catholic Church.”
Maybe not the way you read the bible it cannot mean 'saved by works'. But, even if we take your gloss of the bible, it certainly doesn't say 'assurance of salvation' without work.Quote:
As to Phil 2:12, that cannot mean that we are saved by works, because the same Paul that wrote phil. 2:12 ALSO wrote:
Quote:
BTW, It isn't Luther's theology, it is Biblical theology.
Oh, but this line of argument is Luther's; it's the same perversion of Scripture.
I'm of the opinion that Luther was simply mad, demented or possessed – maybe all three. Most every Catholic scholar would mention one or several of the less scandalous stories about Luther; of course, probably out of charity; connections to the man's stability were seldom made. (It seems the tentacles of political correctness are everywhere).
Let's put Luther under a little scrutiny? Comparatively even though they may have a repudiated past we most always see Saints make a real and lasting change or move to a permanent holiness. Let's see how Luther measure up. Generally speaking, in Luther, I see right the opposite, that is a move towards immorality. This was the issue with Henry VIII's bigamy and his devoice; it seems that Luther proposed that bigamy was more expedient than divorce. While it might raise a flag, it's not too big a deal. What then should we make of the case of bigamy dealing with Phillip of Hesse? Luther reneged on certain assurances given the Pope Leo X, to his Bishop, Bishop Scultetus, and to Emperor Charles. Why? What's the story behind this? Chivalry hadn't died in 1500, not yet anyway – some would say that chivalry moved along with a more 'rationalized' morality shortly after Luther; you might say see moral truth becoming a shivaree of mendacity. What do we make of Luther's Evangel? Are there grounds to suggest that there is a psychological problem with Luther's sanity? Luther's writings are complete with battles with the devil – funny? Take it serious - did he lose the battle with the devil? Luther had a funny outlook on the sacrament of marriage, especially for somebody who was a Catholic priest, who claimed to be a profit (I wonder for whose profit he prognosticates for – the good spirits or the bad guys?)
I'll go a step further and suggest that from the onset Luther's goal was to destroy the Church. There was no attempt at 'reform' or 'correction.' From a gloss we can see schism early in Luther's career. His main goal was to tear down what Christ had built up. Considering himself a great prophet on the order of Moses; no doubt aligned with the great deceiver, openly declared his desire to disrupt the Mass:
If I succeed in doing away with the Mass, then I shall believe I have completely conquered the Pope. On the Mass, as on a rock, the whole of the Papacy is based, with its monasteries, bishoprics, colleges, altars, services and doctrines. ... If the sacrilegious and cursed custom of Mass is overthrown, then the whole must fall. Through me Christ has begun to reveal the abomination standing in the Holy Place (Dan. ix. 27), and to destroy him [the Papal Antichrist] who has taken up his seat there with the devils help, with false miracles and deceiving signs. (Grisar, Luther, Vol. II, pg 320 seqq., London Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., LTD., Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, E.G., 1913)
His scheming was hidden from the faithful. It was difficult sometimes to recognize the differences in outward appearance. Yet, at Luther's direction the liturgy of the Mass was incrementally and imperceptibly altered, like the boiled frog with the heat slowly increased, the faithful didn't know they were embroiled in schism until they were poached. Later Luther was to brag,
“Thank God, in indifferent matters our churches are so arranged that a layman, whether Italian or Spaniard, unable to understand our preaching, seeing our Mass, choir, organs, bells, chantries, etc., would surely say that it was a regular papist church, and that there was no difference, or very little, between it and his own.” (Grisar, Luther, Vol. II, pg 322, London Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., LTD., Broadway House, 68-74 Carter Lane, E.G., 1913)
Luther has a big credibility gap with me, especially when I'm told that such is “God's word,” and “here I stand, here I take my seat, here I stay, here I triumph and laugh to scorn all Papists." I see Luther somewhat like Judas. After all is said and done, you never seem to grasp Luther's motivation. Was Luther a puppet acting out some play – to what end – what good came of it? You'll have to excuse me but I've just about settled on the conclusion that Luther lost his battle in his white washed cell tossing his “scheiss” at the devil (or black ink as some would tell us). Therefore, why should I hold the same theology gospel as a man that throws 'scheiss' at the demon that possess him? And you'll tell me a madman was biblically correct?
JoeT
I will not answer your rant on Luther, as I know very little about him.
My beliefs are based on Scripture.
So if you can't show me in the Bible where I err, then I conclude that you either don't know the Bible, or choose to ignore most of it.
The only Scripture passage that I have ever heard used to support the idea that Jesus founded the RCC is here:
Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(KJV)
If you know of any other, I'll be glad to hear it.
Also, why would you think that the promise of the keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to Peter more than any other follower of Christ?
It is dangerous to build a theology on only one passage. All proper scriptural interpretation will agree with the whole revealed Word of God.
There are several passages of Scripture that show the error of the idea that Peter was the first Pope, or that the RCC was founded by Jesus.
The Church that Jesus founded is not an organization, it is a spiritual organism. It is made up of every one who believes on Jesus as Savior and Lord.
Re-form your question; I'm not sure what it is I'm suppose to provide scriptural proof for. I'm not in a location where I can do this now. I'll respond later tonight as long as Mrs. JoeT doesn't make me do the dishes tonight.
JoeT
God's Church,The Kingdom of God, i.e. the Mystical Body of Christ
The faithful in Christ know that apostolic teachings are important, as faith is believing in something yet unseen. Thus the intellect must know of the existence of the true Christ, His Messianic ministry, and His teachings before faith can work. “The law and the prophets were until John. From that time the kingdom of God is preached: and every one uses violence towards it.” (Luke 16:16-17). What do you think Christ meant? That the Kingdom would come and go? It's right here in the Catholic Church – more fully in the Roman Catholic Church. In this regard Catholics conform their beliefs to the God's Truth as taught by the Apostles. Truth is immutable, therefore if it is Truth for Peter, we can be assured it is Truth for us today, and it will be Truth for us tomorrow. If you ever wanted to use the precepts of Solo Scriptura as the rule of faith in discerning truth in Scripture, you still need these eight individual principles to 'measure' or validate truth we need to look to Scripture, Tradition, the Catholic Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, and natural reasoning. But this sounds like 'Church.'
Private interpretations must be reformed to the doctrines of the Church. Those interpretations of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church have been jealously guarded by the Holy Spirit. Faithfull Christians of any stripe have an obligation to Christ to either 'sign-up' or like the rich man, walk away.
All of which is to say the Church forms our faith; it's not the object of our faith. In Holy Scripture we find no single verse or equally important a line of thought throughout Scripture that the Church is a body of like minded bible reading and believing people. Furthermore, logic would dictate, that if it were it there could only be ONE such body.
In trusting my eternal soul to the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God, I am trusting in God's promise to Moses' covenant Kingdom who established an eternal Seat of authority. Where does this authority come from – yeah, I know, God – but to whom and when was this transfer of authority made. What was Christ's role in all this? Does this authority still exist, where's the seat? The Roman Catholic Church is 'The Kingdom of God' the seat of this authority. The Old Testament tells of the coming of the Kingdom in the Messianic age that even kings will serve and obey (Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10). (Micah 4:1-2) “(Zechariah 14:8)
Prophecies in the Old Testament tell of a future Kingdom holding the authority in the rule of the Messiah; Psalms 2 and 71; Isaiah 9:6 sq.
Taking the seat of Moses, Christ is takes the office of High Priest of the Kingdom of God, “The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.” (Psalm 109:4) And that priesthood is institutionalized in the Kingdom, “For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 1:11). The priesthood in this Messianic Kingdom is a continuation of the priesthood in the Old Testament with continued sacrificial offerings; “Thus saith the Lord: if my covenant, with the day can be made void, and my covenant with the night, that there should not be day and night in their season" (Jeremiah 33:20)
The importance of 'God's Kingdom' is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are 'ruled' in our faith and love of God. Thereby, the only legitimate interpreter of Holy Scripture found in apostolic tradition.
On the other hand, we have another view (primarily Protestant) that canonical Scripture in itself is the only infallible basis for the rule of faith. Most Christians, other than Catholic, form distinct groups of likeminded sole judges of the rule of faith. Since each individual has the same rights there can be as many different measures in faith as there are non-Catholic denominations. This produces chaos in the order of faith, a state antithetical to moral order. One and only one faith can be representative of God's absolute truth. So we're left with the real question, which has Christ's Authority, and which doesn't?
Sometimes it's easier to see 'what is' by contrasting it with 'what isn't'. We see that Protestantism isn't 'one' faith and can never be 'one' given that each is the arbitrator of his own faith (Cf. John 17:11). This is the Tradition guarded, kept, and taught, one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic faith.
In contrast, we take God's Word as being immutable. God promises Moses a Kingdom; nowhere do we find a verse that terminates that Kingdom of God. What is found though is a transfer of power, “Therefore I say to you that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it shall grind him to powder.” (Matt 21:43-44). So, Christ whose word is immutable is an Indian giver? He gives us the Church and then takes it up with Him at the Ascension? His very life was given for the Church as well as our redemption. He spent the better part of His ministry teaching the Twelve his Church.
The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom of God with a priestly hierarchy, where the presence of God was veiled and only found in the Tabernacle. Mosses' sacrifices, different from the Christ's sacrifice, was given up to be consumed by God. Conversely Christ is sacrificed at the altar continually every day consuming us, bite by bite. (Cf. Tractates on the Gospel of John, CHAPTER 26,) newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm
Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of today's “nation building” it was then called Christ's “Kingdom” building.
Where is the Church's authority in scripture? The precepts for authority are in fact scriptural, the living memory of His words. The Church is constituted for the salvation of the faithful. Its claim as the Messianic Kingdom is the envy of the world. (Cf. Luke 4:21) Christ lays claim to His prophecy as Messianic King, in person, in his 'real presence'. If you will read your book, you'll see that Christ claims his universal Kingship in the New Solomon. (Matt 12:6). Lord over the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). The body is animated by the soul, as the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, is animated by its soul the Holy Spirit. When asked by non-Catholics, I explain, Yes, I do place my faith in the Catholic Church, particularly what you call the Roman Catholic Church. I receive in return a direct connection with the Divine, a guide and rule over my faith, along with the administrations of sacraments Christ ordained for His Kingdom of redemption.
Here lies the Church, in the heart, mind and soul; just down the street, around a corner or two. Her name is known to you as The Roman Catholic Church. In her is the Presence of Christ, as promised He is always with us.
JoeT
gromitt82,
Yes, my email has been changed.
I'll send you my new address.
Pax Christi,
Fred
JoeT & Galveston,
If you allow a member (who is not as bright as you two in debating such an important matter as salvation) to interfere let me just tell you that, in my humble opinion, those who stand the best chances of being saved, but not the certainty, are those who fulfil GOD's Law, whether Prostestans, Catholics, Ortodox or you name it!
Good Luck!
Gromitt82
Joe, there is only one fly in the ointment, and that is your insistence that THE CHURCH is the RCC.
My steadfast position is that the Church is an invisible, spiritual body, you know, like Jesus said about salt and leaven.
Otherwise, I find no problem with most of that post.
Fred, I know you don't quite understand it, but I KNOW what I know, and that is that my salvation is assured, as long as I do not turn my back on Jesus and go back into a life of sin.
I ain't going to do that.
Good point, which in a round-about way is mine. What I was suggesting is that the fullness of Divine Law is found in the Catholic Church. Hence, in order to wholly (completely – as much as humanly possible) fulfill God’s Law is to be Catholic as it is founded by Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by gromitt82
In my estimation, the guarantee found in Scripture is ‘Divine Justice.’ For some that might be a good outcome, for others that may be something else not-so-good. God judges as he wills, His findings are Just.
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
I'd suggest to cover your ointment if you have flies.
Are you suggesting that Christ put the “light of the world” under a basket; seems strange to me that the Church would be invisible? Why did Christ let John the Baptist run around saying the Kingdom of God was near-at-hand? How did the Apostles find out about the Church?
I'm not sure what salt and leaven have to do with a 'hidden Church'. Salt was used in every sacrifice by the Jew (Ezra 7:22). It was never mixed with a leaven, it spoiled the bread. (Cf. Lev 2).
Can you clear the salt thing up? While we do find references to salt and leaven, none which would suggest a secrete Church.
JoeT
PS, Salt seasons food and preserves things, usually foods. Christ uses salt to refer to the good earthly things, e.g. “ salt of the earth”. Leaven is used when referring to the Pharisees and was most always negative, e.g. puffed-up, pompous, and pretentious. But it also has another metaphoric meaning; such as to rise up from some unseen force. Consequently, you can see why I'm a bit confused when we see the allegoric use of the words by Pope Paul VI, especially when you use them for an invisible church:
But the Church knows that it is the seed, the leaven, the salt and light of the world. It sees clearly enough the astounding newness of modern times, but with frank confidence it stands upon the path of history and says to men: "I have that for which you search, that which you lack."
It does not hereby promise earthly felicity, but it does offer something--its light and grace--which makes the attainment as easy as possible; and then it speaks to men of their transcendent destiny. In doing this it speaks to them of truth, justice, freedom, progress, concord, peace and civilization. (His Holiness Pope Paul VI, Encyclical - Ways in which the Church Must Carry Out its Mission in the Contemporary World, August 6, 1964)
Luke 17:20-21
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! Or, lo there! For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
(KJV)
Jesus and John have both already said that the Kingdom of heaven is at hand, but Jesus now says that it is within the believer, not external.
The individual believer is to let his light shine, so there is no hiding that light.
Some of all Christian disciplines will be in Heaven, I'm sure.
I'm also sure a lot of church members will not make it.
I also know that most Christians live far below their privileges in Christ.
Maranatha
What makes you think that? Would the Pharisees have understood that the Church was within them? How would, or could think, the Church of Jesus Christ IS within His enemies, those same said enemies of that Kingdom? Would Christ feed pearls to swine; do pigs fly? The plain text of this has been known for nearly 2,000 years, since Christ said these very words;Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God should come. (Luke 17: 20) Douay-Rheims. Christ’s words are directed at the Pharisees not to his followers, then or now. {I’m using the Douay-Rheims only because I have resources linked to certain verses.} It’s like a classic comedic movie scene - you know the punch line, before its said, but you die laughing anyway.
Close your eyes and envision, (wait - don’t close’em till you finish reading), Christ is addressing the Pharisees with Christ’s faithful mingled among the Pharisees. After all they’re both of Judah and the erudite Pharisees would grudgingly permitted closeness of the lowclass to their person. After all, one must stoop down once in awhile. This group of Pharisees sarcastically asks Christ, where this great and wondrous Kingdom of God hails from and where can they see it. All the while their great lofty aristocratic bearded head fain a mock search. Hand to forehead, they shade their eyes, looking with a mocking double-wide eyed stare into the heavens while swiveling heads turn – some heads may have actually turned more than 360 degrees, several times. Imagine that several elbows reaching for the funny bone, one or another pointing to the two boys playing in the street snidely says, “His Praetorian Guard, all that’s lacking is the Roman Aquila standard.“
But, Christ brings the jerks back to reality with a world slapping sober answer, “The kingdom of God comes not with observation. Neither shall they say: Behold here, or behold there,” after all those who are among the first of “the kingdom of God [are among] you”(Luke 17: 20-21). Look around you arrogant pips, there are no holier men in the world than in Kingdom of God which mingles with you right here. Behold where is there any holier than these among you? Behold here is the last of the Old Pharasiee who falsely claim holiness; behold the first of the next generation, these holy men among you.
Christ tell them, before the changing of the guard takes place and my standard replaces yours, I must first “be rejected by this generation. And as it came to pass in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” (Luke 17:15-26) What a bunch of morons these Pharisees, because then a great tribulation will come to pass, like that of Noah’s. Those who look back on these times hearts will turn to stone like Lot’s wife (Cf. (Cf. Luke 17:27-36). Listen to what Christ says to the Pharisees, “Wheresoever the body [Church the Kingdom of God] shall be, thither will the eagles also be gathered together.” St. Jerome in his letter to Marcella (letter 46), tells us that these that follow Christ’s standard are legions of the holy, the holy priests, monks, and virgins, that march with greatness;
…they all assemble here and exhibit in this one city the most varied virtues. Differing in speech, they are one in religion, and almost every nation has a choir of its own. Yet amid this great concourse there is no arrogance, no disdain of self-restraint; all strive after humility, that greatest of Christian virtues. Whosoever is last is here regarded as first. Matthew 19:30 Their dress neither provokes remark nor calls for admiration. In whatever guise a man shows himself he is neither censured nor flattered. Long fasts help no one here. Starvation wins no deference, and the taking of food in moderation is not condemned. To his own master each one stands or falls. Romans 14:4 No man judges another lest he be judged of the Lord. Matthew 7:1 Backbiting, so common in other parts, is wholly unknown here. Sensuality and excess are far removed from us. And in the city there are so many places of prayer that a day would not be sufficient to go round them all. Here lies Christ’s equivalent of the Roman Standard; Before the Church marches the Aquila (eagle). This is His Kingdom, i.e. the Church.
Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 46 (Jerome)
Individuals may be in heaven, but it will be those individuals that fight the spiritual war behind Aquila Standard of God, in His Holy Kingdom, the Roman Catholic Church.
JoeT
Gal... never say never! Your flesh is always with you... besides... SALVATION is of the Lord. There are no conditions.. My natural self is capable of anything... but I choose to surrender to HIM. Some days I wake up with emotions and feelings that perhaps make me less likely to surrender... or because I am like the simple minded SHEEP I forget. But Salvation IS of the LORD... I didn't earn it and I can't keep it. Last I checked HE is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of my faith.so... from what I can tell all MY righteousness are as filthy rags. EVEN as a saved chickidee... they are filthy. I am ONLY made the righteousness of Christ by being place IN HIM... one last time... SALVATION is OF the Lord.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Fred,
When do you think he established the Chruch?
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