 |
I know I know I'm always GUSHING but WOW Jakester. The entire post is right on and I so agree with you. Beautifully stated. Right on whoo hoo, you go!Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
This is what I mean when I say that the natural man hates God's sovereignty. It strings his bean because the natural man thinks somehow he is entitled to something and that God owes him something and here is the KICKER... he thinks GOD is UNJUST!
You are right, the natural man sees it that way. Well said!!Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Actually, it usually goes the other way--man thinks he owes God something for giving the free gift of salvation, and must somehow pay God for it by doing good works.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Wondergirl - that is a good point... although it's been my experience that people favor that God owes them something. Maybe you have had more experiences in line with what you stated here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
My experiences include growing up in a parsonage and being a Christian teacher most of my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
It's difficult to believe God offers salvation for free, no strings attached. Our minister once asked long-time members before the church service to write down the answer to this question, "If you died tonight, why would God allow you into His heaven?" Many of the answers were some form of "because I'm a good person and help others." On this board we have discussed Christianity with Christians who do not believe Jesus' sacrifice was all-sufficient, that we have to do our part too to make the salvation valid.
That's an interesting perspective. I'm curious, how would you answer the minister's question? Not putting you on the spot but it's a thought-provoking question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
By grace am I saved, through Christ. It is a gift of God, not of my own works, lest I boast that I had something to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Wondergirl,
There ARE strings attached to our salvation.
One is that we MUST have faith in Jesus Christ's salvation ministry.
Another is to be baptized in the faith.
Another is to prove that faith. A faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
So the bible says and so I believe.
It's like the TV ads say, this is a free gift all you need to do is pay shipping and handling.
The shipping and handling are the strings attached to that gift.
All gifts have some form of a string attached.
The one that comes with all gifts is that you must accept it or it is not a gift.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Dear Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
There are NO strings attached. The gift is free and clear, with free delivery by the Holy Spirit. He's the one who works faith in your heart, so even that is not of your doing. If faith has been worked in your heart and you die without being baptized, no problem. Of course, one who has had faith instilled in his heart will, out of love and thankfulness, become baptized and will show unconditional love to others as a thank-you to God.
Wondergirl,
So you believe.
But I believe what the bible says.
Me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Eph. 2:8.9 -- For grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
Exactly. The natural man thinks he can somehow earn it because he is good enough. When someone confronts him with the truth... there is ONE way and ONLY one.. he rejects it. John 14:6 When he is told there is NOTHING he can do to earn it... he rejects that notion. Why? Because he actually believes that outside of faith in Lord Jesus he can somehow please God. I agree that many people will say, " i am a good person." But what do they say when you tell them that God's Word says... "all of your rigtheousness are as filthy rags"? Two thing happens.. one they believe it or two... they don't. Why don't they? Because they want God on their terms. So YES, I do believe the natural man HATES God and HIS sovereignty and he just really loathes the thought that there are NOT many paths to God. I didn't say he actually understood that he hated God's sovereignty.. in fact most would deny it. They would rather blame bad doctrine and or just hate the messenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Predestination is a term that refers to God's determination in advance that something will happen in accordance with His fixed purpose. Let's look at who God is--
He is all-wise and all- knowing. He can do anything and everything we cannot do, and
He is everything good that we would like to be. He is Omnipotent ( all-powerful )
And Omniscient ( all-knowing ) and Omnipresent ( present everwhere ).
God is spirit; eternal and ever-living. He has no beginning or end. God is the Father of all creation, the Creator of all. He is all powerful and sustains the universe. He is the
Source of all life and everything that is. God gave Himself the name Yahweh.
We christians believe the Bible as God's Word and it teaches us about the past,
The present, and the furture. He could not tell us what the future is going to be if He did not know, but He knows everything. There are a lot of things that are a mystery
To us now but will be clear in the end.
Love and Blessings, Maggie 3
I have a basic problem with his approach. Anytime that we translate from one language into another, there is an inaccuracy because rarely does the grammar or words in one language have a perfect match to another language. So if we want to properly understand what this word means in context, we need to go back to the original language. But he does not do that - instead what he does cause further inaccuracy by taking a word translated into English, going to where that English word appears in a translation of the OT and translating it back into Hebrew to understand what it means in Greek.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Any good linguist would absolutely cringe at such an approach. I have seen this approach used by other religions to tryt o justify their interpretation of scripture, to try to make a word mean something other than what a straight reading of the Greek would have it mean, but I do not think it appropriate if we want to understand what was being said to the readers of the book of Hebrews.
What does the word Apostatize that the book of Hebrew means?
------------------------------------
Apostatize
[imp. & p. p. Apostatized; p. pr. & vb. n. Apostatizing.] [LL. Apostatizare.] To renounce totally a religious belief once professed; to forsake one's church, the faith or principles once held, or the party to which one has previously adhered.
He apostatized from his old faith in facts, took to believing in ?emblances. --Carlyle.
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.
------------------------------------
So it means that you once did believe, but no longer believe.
Jakester,Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Do you think that God meant that some vessels have no hope? That the vessels that God has used like servants, to show both honorable and dishonorable, are actually on the one side dishonorable servants of satan, and will not have a way of learning godliness? Can we be predestinent to an office and not yet knowing learn the ways in which best rules the result in goodness to that office?
Do you see that there might be a change that could be molded into being honorable. And in reality that as filthy rags that were doomed, NOW given a clean body because of grace. Set free from being filthy servants of unrighteousness, to live as a servant in righteousness.
When in God knowing each so well that He indeed uses each. Question: Is the outcome of each HIS prestinent calling for them, or rather the free will of the dishonorable servant which was known to God? AND for goodness God, used them to be an example?
Isa 64:4-5 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6-7 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Woe looks pretty gloomy for everyone, Except BUT NOW
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
agree (Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. )Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken [it].
Jakester, I do not believe we are filthy rags any longer, because we were set free from what one man did once in the beginning and NOW by one man much great as brought us righteousness.
Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
Does God have the right? My two cents is that God has every right, because of righteousness and love that "He is." God has shown HIS love in sending HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. This was so we could overcome what satan, as the death of doomed eternity did in the beginning by one man... The evilness and sin goes on if we choose to walk in darkness... NOW we are set free from sin, given newness of life with the HOLY SPIRIT that dwells within us to guide and direct HIS way in us... HIS WAYs in righteousness and profitable as the gospel teaches in godliness...Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
If we think we sin, then repent and confess faith in Christ Jesus. Be ye holy for HE is HOLY. Believe in HIS worthiness.
~walk in Christ
Tj3 - I think it is shrinking back. I think in practice it is what the Israelites did with Moses. He was charged with bringing them to the Land of Promise but they kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Ultimately, I think it is this kind of spirit which characterizes apostatizing. It is the attitude of "I really liked Christianity and it made sense to me, but now I'm really not interested in it anymore." Like the parable of the sower relays, "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature."Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Thank you Tom .. this does go back to what the scripture said in being beware lest any man spoil you through philosoghy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, ways of this world and not after Christ... It is also pretty clear towards the warning of anti-christ, or many anti-christ that will come. We are to watch carefully, and follow no one other then Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Tom,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Well you know I respect your opinion . I guess I will dig deeper.
Snd,Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I try so not to get irritated with your approach. OK.. I am calm and cool. I'm breathing slowly... NO ONE and I mean NO ONE here is following a tradition of man. K? And I'm pretty darn sure that Les Feldik AIN'T going to be the anti-christ.:rolleyes: And let me assure of something else... I am following Christ.but thanks anyway for your kind and thoughtful words of wisdom.
P.s. someone better pray for me... quick!! :D
ClassyT, I am not sure why you feel the target that the scripture references would apply to you? or to Les Feldik? It was not a target against you, him, or anyone individual, yet it does apply to anyone who would permit themselve to be beguiled into following satan.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
The scripture quoted tells us ... that we can be beguiled in following any traditions of men. IN otherword someone or ones other then Christ.
And that the same idea in falling away from one's belief as Tom had defined was like scripture says in following anti-christ once you had already confess belief in Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
~in Christ
Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will come unless the
Falling away comes first...
The time is coming when the majority of the church will abandom sound doctrine
And will instead endorse whatever teaching seems popular at the moment.
The way to combat such an error now is to stick close to Jesus and His teaching.We must anchor our faith in the Word of God, not in miraculous signs and wonders. Satan can counterfeit many of God's Works, and if we do not know Gods Word, we
May be duped by them.
Thess: 2-9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with
All power, signs, and lying wonders...
Be Prepared, Maggie 3
I hear what you are saying but that is not the message that the words or the context convey.Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
As I said earlier to Classy, the description of a saved person falling away in Hebrews 6 is so specific in not only speaking of the person Apostatizing, but also describing the attributes of a person who is saved, that I cannot imagine what could have been said to make it clearer. Elsewhere in scripture we have descripture of those who have fallen away, for example:
Rom 11:17-22
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well [said]. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, [fn] if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
NKJV
Note that those who fail to continue in God's goodness (salvation) will be cut off from the tree. Note that those grafted on to the tree are "partakers". Jews who are part of the tree are saved, those who are cut off are not. But here we have those who are saved (Gentiles) who are warned that they could be cut off. But it is dependent upon what they do (remain in God's goodness). In case you question whether grafting to the tree means they are saved, look at Romans 11:11.
Romans 11:11
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [has come] to the Gentiles.
NKJV
Again, those who were grafted on (saved) are subsequently cut off for not remaining in God's goodness. If they were grafted on when they were saved, then can they still be saved when cut off?
I think that time has arrived. In many cities now, Christians are having trouble finding sound churches. I had a woman contact me on my website about 10 years ago and tell me that it was hard finding a sound church in her city ( a medium to large US city), and I was shocked. A friend who was from that city confirmed that what she said was true. Now I have seeing the same problem in cities in many places in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Hey, Tom -Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I've got no problem with you disagreeing with me but come on, man, you can't keep me hanging like that... offer an argument for why you think I'm off base because I care enough to have my theology challenged. How do you think my interpretation of the parable does not fit into the context? I think that is where you were in disagreement with me, right?
You got to man up if you're going to tell someone you think their interpretation is wrong... especially someone who agrees with you about the importance of context. I still believe I have it right but I'll be willing to listen to an opposing viewpoint.
Thanks.
Jake,Quote:
Originally Posted by jakester
Sorry, but after I posted that, I thought the same thing and added more to the post to clarify. Please go back and have another look.
Tom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
To get back on the awareness to be predestinent. My answer would be yes, we are predestinent to God's calling. The entire comprehensiveness of the scripture in God's Word is the calling HE has offered to all souls unto godliness. We are also predestinent in free will, to answer that calling... (knowing that free will has a right and wrong answer)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
So God has sent HIS will to be followed. And our Father sent HIS begotten Son. Christ the blood of the new testiment. Christ answered HIS Father's will to the letter of everything that is written, and Christ fulfilled HIS Father's will. (That walk is there for us to follow)
As for Judas, having been predestinent to God's calling...YES he was.. However Judas made his own way, which was his predestinent free will answer in choice to do as he did. God then used Judas's choice to bring goodness, and to example what can happen to any that deny God, in going their own way. (discern what Judas did as wrong) BUT (do not judge Judas's heart of soul)
God uses everyone as He molds them into the path they eventually take. Using them in attempt to bring goodness along their way. We can read that Judas repented, and the money was cast back. Did Judas reap from what he sowed.. YES
There will be those, that God in foreknown knowledge, has continually used in their own predestinent free will. Some have choosen to stay in darkness, sin of the world, and lust after a life they feel is best in their ways. God actually gives some their own delusion to what they have elected to follow. We can not judge anyone, yet we can discern right from wrong to follow righteousness. That righteousness is in Christ..
What it is worth to anyone is their choice. Which seed are you, beause that is what you will be held accountable for doing.
Sndbay, I am not sure I understand all you have said, but I will think on it. I believe
God knows everything. It looks like predestination is one thing we cannot all
Agree on. Look at Rom. 11:33-36 "Yes, God's riches are very great, and His Wisdom
and Knowledge have no end! No one can explain the things God decides or understand
His ways. 34 As the Scripture says, "Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been able to give him advice ? 35 "No one has ever given God anything that He must
pay back." 36 Yes God made all things, and everything continues though Him and for
Him. To Him be the glory forever! Amen."
God is not in a time zone as we are, and so it is hard for us to think without putting
A time to things, we do not understand. God knows our heart, that I am thankfull for.
Think of it this way, a movie made about the beginning of time until the end of time, as
We know it--Genesis-----Revelation... I think He has seen the movie and knows the ending.
Love and Blessings Maggie 3
Yes it is the idea of what predestination means.. And I acknowledge each predestinent option giving by God to us.(HIS calling is 1, Free will choice is 2) Those options leds to a single predestinent ending of life or death. This is how I see it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
YES , To HIm be the glory forever Amen forsuch is the glory, praise honour He is ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
When we acknowledge that nothing of our lives could achieve the newness in life without the love HE sent in HIS begotten Son Christ Jesus. Then we can understand how everything continues through HIm and for HIM. We then hold that hope, which to me is in the 2 predestinent option of free will that brings life in HIM.
Agree, God does know the hearts of each and as scripture has shown us in what Paul could overcome in Christ, and did experienced in his life. From the womb of his mother, God knew Paul's heart. And how Paul would change and accept God's way. How goodness came from God's mercy shown to Paul, but also how Paul had to accept it, and walk in Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
Example: We are to plant ourselves in righteousness, to reap mercy... The mercy is HIS righteousness to give us ...
Hsa 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Thank you Sndbay, I am still studying what
You are saying, thanks.
Blessing, Maggie 3
Hope u are feeling better. Take care..Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie 3
I agree that "predestination is one thing we cannot all
agree on."
Fred
Sndbay, I am better and getting back my
Strength. Thanks for asking.
Blessing, Maggie 3
Fred, have you been gone? I haven't seen
Any posts from you for quite awhile. I hope you are well.
Blessings, Maggie 3
Maggie 3,
I have been here on different threads.
I'm getting along was well as can be expected for a guy with the several health problems that I have, thank God.
I'm glad to heard that you are better.
Fred
What makes me think in these verses is the phrase '' in Christ ''. Christ was before the foundation of the world and if I believe in Him , then I am in Him and because He was before the foundation of the world then IN HIM I was too!
Your conclusion does not follow. If I buy a jar at the store, and put something in it, it does not follow that what I put in the jar was there before I bought it.Quote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
I am not sure what you are getting at.
adam7gur,
Yes, I can see what you mean.
Spirituality is eternal while other things are not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
OK I had to read this over and over before I agreed with you on this... see you ARE more logical than I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
BUT having said that, If God is out of our time and space... couldn't the verse mean what it says. We WERE chosen in HIM before the foundation of the world. In other words... what Jesus said... you have not chosen me.. but I have chosen you. The more I study this, the more I feel certain the verse means what it says and maybe, just maybe you are complicating it... :cool:
classyT,
I agree with you on this.
We are talking eternal spirituality.
Fred
It does mean that God chose us, but we also chose Him. It is a balance that we cannot comprehend because we chose Him on the timeline, and He chose us while looking from the outside at the timeline. To say that one happened before or after is how we must see it because we cannot comprehend what it means to be outside of time. That is why we can never fully understanding nor explain how this happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Maybe I am complicating it, but keep in mind that a being who is the eternal, omniscient, omnipotent creator of the universe is complicated. If we could fully comprehend Him and how he acts, then He would no longer be an infinite God, but a God who was out equal.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:26 PM. |