JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
I have many loved ones and some friends who have passed this life.
I pray to God for mercy on their souls.
It's the best I can do for them now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
I have many loved ones and some friends who have passed this life.
I pray to God for mercy on their souls.
It's the best I can do for them now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
All very interesting except the part where you claim Onesiphorus is dead. Where did you find that? There is nothing in scripture which even suggests that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Sirach is not in the Old Testament, but if you'd like to push it, I'd be happy to show you contradictions between Sirach and the Bible.Quote:
Oops: I forgot to add an Old Testament reference to the practice of praying for the dead. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead. (Sirach 7:37) The graces referred to here are those profited from alms, prayers, and sacrifices.
You do know that Maccabees denies being an inspired work internally, don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
If we can judge the strength of prayer based on the depth of one’s faith, your friends and relatives were well supported as they passed through the doors of the Church Triumphant.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
On another matter, quite some time ago, I became terrified at the thought of all the poor souls that found themselves in purgatory without love ones to pray for them. What terrified me was that by some twist of fate I could just as easily become such a soul. As a result I started saying a simple prayer every night for all such lost souls. Join me. I’m sure those in the Church Suffering will be forever grateful. Think of it as a way of storing up treasures in Heaven.
JoeT
Your handicaps are self inflicted so don't ask me to, as it were tie both hands behind my back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
JoeT
Thanks again, Joe.
Fred
I always get a laugh when those who have no way to refute an uncomfortable fact must resort to demeaning personal comments. I take it by your comments that you didn't know that Maccabees denied being inspired.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Look who is laughing at who now.
Is laughing at other Christians the thing to do.
If so please site the passage that says so.
Thanks Fred
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Please respectfully don't twist what I have quoted around...
Everything I have quoted is saying the dead can not help us on earth. To pray to the dead is what my quote reference to being No Way...
To pray to saints is what I rebuke, so that sin is not suffered unto anyone.
Of course, someone praying to the Father can ask for what is in the heart of request for their loved ones .
ONCE DEPARTED FROM THE FLESH LOOK AT THE QUOTE:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
The problem is that Luke 16 doesn’t address your topic. Nor does it say “once departed from the flesh.” Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; many such as me believe that this shows the existence of purgatory. We’ll save that however for another day. Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
Isn't that what Jesus did, "loose" us from our sins? Of course, there has to be faith in that redemption. There is no second chance after this earthly life has ended according to Hebrews 9:27: "And, inasmuch, as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Whether Catholics have believed that since the denomination began in the 4th century is a different question. The question is whether scripture endorses such a position, and using a book which is not canonical and denies inspiration such as Maccabees is not a compelling argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
We can clearly see that communication with the dead is condemned is scripture, and we find nothing in scripture endorsing it, nor do we see it practiced by men of God in scripture.
Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Died = departed from the flesh correct?
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
This scripture reference, clearly says hell
Purgatory is a man's doctrine, made up and is not written in scripture. (basicly I causion against anything man made )
2 Maccabees Chapter 12The Jews are still molested by their neighbours. Judas gains various victories over them. He orders sacrifice and prayers for the dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Is this what the Catholic church follows?
**********
I can not accept that men on earth can help or improve anyones fate once they die.. (basicly because we are not Christ, who is the Saviour, and who knows the hearts, and souls of all)
Nor would I believe that praying to the Father concerning anyone's fate, once they die would be wise. (basicly because it shows judgement, and we can't judge someone else's fate even to ask this of our Father)
To pray to the Father in thankfulness to Him, for those individuals who were apart of our lives, and to acknowledge our sorrow in their death seems likely done in the glory of God.
However I do trust we can go to our Father in prayer concerning sorrow which aids in our own comfort. To do so shows our faith in God.
sndbay.
Sorry but I agree with Joe and My Church's teaching on that.
Fred
Ok, let's go through Luke 16, starting with the parable of the rich man.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Before Christ died on the cross, the soul went to sheol, or hell. Hell was a place of waiting, a place of limbo, presumed to be a dark place below the earth. No soul went to heaven or what we consider the inferno of hell, the place always referred to in the New Testament as the hell of the damned, Gehenna; the punishment place of the damned. After Christ's Ascension the soul didn't go to the underworld, but rather to heaven (Cf. 2 Cor 5:1)
What is depicted in Luke 16:19 seq. are three souls, Lazarus, the Dives and Abraham. These three are aware of each other, aware of those on earth, and aware of their own condition. Being conscious of their plight and calling for mercy shows the presence of hope, a virtue notably absent in hell. Abraham's bosom was understood by Jewish culture to be a place of rest; not heaven but a place where a spirit could rest. Again, until the Ascension no soul enters heaven. It's with Christ's sacrifice that a new heaven and a new earth are created. On Christ's death, a New Kingdom is created; its occupants are the Church Militant, those baptized on earth; Church suffering, those suffering in purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those residing in heaven.
Furthermore, the Dives petitions (“prays to”) another soul in purgatory to have mercy; “send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.” The purging flames of fire create a great thrust for God's graces. The rich man pray's “send him [Lazarus] to my father's house” to testify. This is the dead 'praying' for his love ones left behind. To suggest that it was possible to send Moses and the prophets for the benefit of the living also supports the idea of the communication of the living with the Saints. Would Christ have used a parable that theologically flawed if such communication were prohibited?
I would caution also. Ignoring Sacred and Holy Tradition is to deny the fullness of faith found in the Church.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
The Catholic Church follows Holy Tradition and Scripture, as taught by the Magisterium. If you mean does this include the Book of Maccabees; then yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
That's too bad. You'd make a great Catholic.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
But, wouldn't it be more comforting to know that mom, dad, uncle, brother, etc. are in heaven adding to our petitions for God's mercy on our souls. Wouldn't it help comfort poor lost souls to know that we are petitioning God to be merciful to them? Do you just hate poor lost souls so much that you wouldn't pray for them? Would you dam all who don't “walk the isle” to say the formula of 'once saved always saved'?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I pray to Saint Michael:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray: and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.
JoeT
Who said purgatory = 2nd chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
JoeT
Joe,
There ARE several passages in the Holy Bible that indicate the existence of Purgatory.
They are as follows...
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins.
If you haven't does so yet, make a note of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Then what would be its purpose?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Wondergirl,
The purpose of Purgatory is in its name.
Though out sins may be forgiven we still have a sinful nature to sin again.
It is the place where our sinful nature is purged.
Folks there leave purified so they can enter heaven.
You might think of it as a stage stop on the way to the heavenly kindom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
To purge sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Jesus did that on the cross, by Himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Are you still copying and pasting off that website without giving proper credit?
Lk 12:59
Let's look at the context:
Luke 12:57-59
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
NKJV
This does not even need explanation. This is one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.
1 Cor 3:15
1 Cor 3:11-16
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV
This refers to works. Works done for Christ will remain, but works done for other reason will not survive. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with works, not men being destroyed.
1 Pet 1:7
1 Peter 1:5-10
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.
NKJV
This refers to faith being tested. We find a lot in scripture about our faith being tested (I.e. Heb 11), but every case refers to what we go through while alive. Nothing here speaks of men being burned.
Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Matt 5:23-26
23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you are thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
NKJV
This does not even need explanation. Yet another one of those references that people quote without checking out the context.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Look at the context:
Heb 12:3-6
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
NKJV
The context is referring to how God deals with us while we are alive in the flesh. Nothing whatsoever could bend this to make it refer to purgatory or after death.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
Matt 12:31-32
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJV
This speaks against the belief that we can pay for sins after death – there is no forgiveness after death, don't put your hope in paying for your sins in purgatory.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
NKJV
This refers to Abraham's bosom.
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Rev 21:26-27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
NKJV
Right. For those who are saved, Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness, not purgatory.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Heb 12:22-24
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
NKJV
This refers to the perfection that comes through Christ's salvation, not purgatory.
Col 1:24
Col 1:24-27
24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
NKJV
Note that this is “in my flesh”, not after death.
2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Sam 12:12-15
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15 Then Nathan departed to his house.
NKJV
Suffering in the flesh, not after death.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Maccabees is not canonical and by internal evidence, is not the word of God:
2 Maccabees 15:38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired. If it is poorly done and mediocre, it was the best that I could do.
NRSV
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
2 Tim 1:14-18
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day--and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
NKJV
“In that day” refers to the fact that he is not yet dead.
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins
1 John 5:14-17
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
NKJV
We cannot take scripture out of context.
Hence, purgatory. When this topic was first brought up I indicated that it should be saved for another thread. Please feel free to start one. Please stick to the topic.Quote:
Heb 1:1-4
1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
NKJV
JoeT
How you claim it is purgatory when Jesus says that Himself already purged (past tense) those who are saved of their sins on the cross is beyond me.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
I do not care about starting another thread. I am just responding to the issue that was raised on here.
Are Catholic then servants of sin and unable to do righteousness?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
( Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness).
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Scripture tells us we have purified the soul in obeying the truth through the Spirit. Confess Christ as worthy... forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1 Peter 1:22-23 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:14-15 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
I Cor 10:5-6 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Purgatory:Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I would appreciate it if you would repost your comments at: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post1628562
JoeT
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Understood yet difficult to do with Fred's posting in this thread..
Sorry Joe I certainly did not mean to side track your thread. Just answered the postings that were being discussed. This thread has been a whirlwind of discussion even with you and I talking of praying to the dead.
It's OK - just thought it would be best. Your comments will likely get a better viewing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
My response is at this link, https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/christ...ml#post1629751Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
JoeT
sndbay,
Joe gave you and excellent response to that.
Fred
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