That's right! Am I claiming differently?
Sin is based on Act and not on Nature.
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That's right! Am I claiming differently?
Sin is based on Act and not on Nature.
That is only but your redefinition of the word "Act". You effectively deny any differentiation between thought and act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
You argument about nature falls apart on two points:
1) Your definition of homosexual (as you definition of acts) is not the same as the dictionary definition:
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Homosexual
Adjective
1. sexually attracted to members of your own sex [ant: bisexual, heterosexual]
Noun
1. someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Cite This Source
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2) You have failed to show that a homosexual is a homosexual by nature. Scripture is clear that homosexuals can change.
What I understand as homosexual is what is "having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex"
.. and this is what I am saying is natural to them... based on my conversation with them
Kindly clear, what can be changed to homosexual that you are claiming that can be changed based on the scripture.
Criado,
I am fimrly convinced that and act can be either physical or mental or both.
I frequently pray by mind and not spoke word.
And I'm convinced that God hears my prayers as such
Peace and kindness.
Fred
Unfortunately, this understanding which you say is based upon anecdotal evidence, is not supported by science of the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I am not sure what you are asking, but people can choose to be homosexual:Quote:
Kindly clear, what can be changed to homosexual that you are claiming that can be changed based on the scripture.
Rom 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
NKJV
And can change from homosexuals to heterosexuals:
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV
As Fred pointed out, and I can attest to, this is not just words in the Bible, but there are organizations which have shown considerable success in witnessing to homosexuals who have changed and I have met men who were once homosexuals changed by the power of God.
I beg to disaree. Nature teaches. (I Cor 11:14) and one of the things I learned that these person cannot change what they are. And what cannot be change is of nature, created by God. (Romans 9:20-21).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I agree. But this is not the one I am referring to (and maybe this is the cause of our misunderstanding).Quote:
I am not sure what you are asking, but people can choose to be homosexual:
1) Those who are like prostitutes for natural homosexuals. I honestly don't know how to call them. I don't know if you got what I means.
2) They are also those mentioned in Romans 1:26-27. This persons are using women before then shifts to man.
These of course have choice unlike the naturally born ones. But I still believe that there are those based on what the nature shows.
First, this verse has nothing to do with the topic. It is speaking about hair length:Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
1 Cor 11:14-15
14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
NKJV
Circular reasoning. You assume that it is the nature that they are born with, thus you conclude that it cannot be changed, and thus your proof that it is their nature.Quote:
And what cannot be change is of nature, created by God. (Romans 9:20-21).
The reality is that scripture attests to homosexuals changing to heterosexcual and both Fred and I have attested to modern cases. Based upon your syllogism, if it can be changed, it is not their nature.
Homosexuality is exhibited in many ways, but whether you believe that homosexuality can be something that a person can be born with does not make it fact, and does not alter what the evidence is (both scientific and scriptural).Quote:
I agree. But this is not the one I am referring to (and maybe this is the cause of our misunderstanding).
1) Those who are like prostitutes for natural homosexuals. I honestly don't know how to call them. I don't know if you got what I means.
2) They are also those mentioned in Romans 1:26-27. This persons are using women before then shifts to man.
These of course have choice unlike the naturally born ones. But I still believe that there are those based on what the nature shows.
This is to show that nature really teaches things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes;Quote:
Based upon your syllogism, if it can be changed, it is not their nature.
Scientific? Please research about the comparison of brain structure of homosexuals and heterosexuals. You should also consider "studying them" (I hate using this word to them but I can't think of any term.. sorry.. ) by talking to them.Quote:
Homosexuality is exhibited in many ways, but whether you believe that homosexuality can be something that a person can be born with does not make it fact, and does not alter what the evidence is (both scientific and scriptural).
Scriptural? I already laid my basis.
No one has disagreed. What is the point with respect to the topic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
And since we have shown that they can be changed, homosexuals are not homosexuals by nature.Quote:
Yes
I have done both, and I related the results.Quote:
Scientific? Please research about the comparison of brain structure of homosexuals and heterosexuals. You should also consider "studying them" (I hate using this word to them but I can't think of any term.. sorry.. ) by talking to them.
Scriptural? I already laid my basis.
Wrong. If they have changed, they are not BORN homosexual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
So am I.Quote:
I have done both, and I related the results.
That is what I said. So homosexuals are not homosexuals by nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I think you missed my post #126.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I saw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Then is it clear now?
I see no difference to what I said before. My comments were in response to that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I just point out in my post#126 the Homosexual that can be changed to hetero.
So why are you arguing with me over homosexuals being "natural"Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
I agree. If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie. They are still homosexuals to the core. I could "change" into a homosexual and move to the Bay Area and become a partner to my homosexual friend Laurie, but I am living a lie. I am still a heterosexual to the core.Quote:
Originally Posted by Criado
Who are you to insult so many men and women who have had the courage to come to Christ and submit their choice of orientation to Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Criado,
Again I agree with Tj3 .
There ARE former homosexuals who HAVE changed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The truth will eventually come out. If anything, such a person is bisexual. Human sexuality is very fluid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
How many have "changed"?
Who knows? Over the centuries it is thousands, tens of thousands or millions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No one deserves to be called a liar because they wish to be obedient to God and allow Him to change them to what He created them to be.
Give me a break! There is a HUGE payoff if a bisexual or even homosexual claims to have been "changed." Suddenly he gets accepted into a church body of fundamentalist/evangelical Christians, is high-fived left and right, is considered saved, and is told he will enter heaven someday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And without even knowing these people, you are prepared to label them all as liars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Where are the scientific studies, or are they all self-report?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The fact is that there are no scientific studies which say that homosexual are homosexual at birth. I do not plan to look them up right now, but in reality the onus would be on you in any case to prove that that homosexuals are born that way, and this to try to validate your vcliam that all ex-homosexuals are, as you suggest - liars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
But I note that you are now changing the subject.
Nice twist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Many published reports of "successful" conversion therapies are unreliable in that the participants' initial sexual orientation was never adequately assessed. Many bisexuals have been mislabeled as homosexuals with the consequence that the "successes" reported for the conversions actually have occurred among bisexuals who were highly motivated to adopt a heterosexual behavior pattern.
Studies on "reparative therapy" are simply compilations of self-reports from psychoanalysts who are attempting to change their patients' sexual orientation (and who are highly motivated to report "success").
So what we are left with is the personal testimonies of those who once were homosexuals and the testimonies of God's word that in fact homosexuality is a sin and that the power of God can change homosexuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Testimonies = self-reportsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
That's not what those Bible passages are talking about.Quote:
the testimonies of God's word that in fact homosexuality is a sin and that the power of God can change homosexuals.
And you say that the ones that agree with you are from honest homosexuals and those that disagree with you are from liars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Sound like discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation to me, if you think that all former homosexuals are liars.
So you claim. The experts in Koine Greek disagree.Quote:
That's not what those Bible passages are talking about.
Your choice of words, not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Akoue and I have both gone 'round and 'round the block on this one.Quote:
So you claim. The experts in Koine Greek disagree.
Jesus said nothing on the subject. There is not a single word in the Gospels about any type of same-sex sexual activity. Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality. Jesus' silence on this particular subject is worthy of note.
There is no word in the original language of either the Old or New Testament that can be properly translated "homosexual" or "homosexuality". If this word is used in your translation, the translators themselves have inserted it. It is not in the original Hebrew or Greek texts. Again, there is no reference in the Bible to homosexual orientation. One can only conclude that homosexual orientation was not a concern to Jesus, to the writers of the Bible materials, or to the societies in which they lived. Whenever same-sex references are made in the Bible, they are always references to some particular heterosexual act in the context of temple rituals that involve rape or prostitution.
Not really. In post 137, you made the charge, when you said, and I quote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
"If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie."
He did not need to. The Jews of His day would know the OT and would know that homosexuality is a sin.Quote:
Jesus said nothing on the subject. There is not a single word in the Gospels about any type of same-sex sexual activity. Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality. Jesus' silence on this particular subject is worthy of note.
Your claim. Koine Greek experts disagree.Quote:
There is no word in the original language of either the Old or New Testament that can be properly translated "homosexual" or "homosexuality".
Um, my point was (since you apparently missed it) that there is no such thing as a "changed" homosexual. Bisexual, maybe, possibly. Homosexual, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I repeat: Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality.Quote:
He did not need to. The Jews of His day would know the OT and would know that homosexuality is a sin.
Name one.Quote:
Your claim. Koine Greek experts disagree.
That is what I am saying is insulting. Who are you to suggest that these thousands of people are all liars simply because they have chosen to follow Christ's lead rather than believe you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Every reference in scripture is Jesus' word - The Bible is the word of God, and Jesus is the word made flesh.Quote:
I repeat: Jesus did not hesitate to comment on all the evils of his day. He said nothing about homosexuality.
Or are you now going to tell me that you don't believe that Jesus is God?
Wait, wait, wait! Name a Koine expert first. That's the request currently on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What an outré segue!Quote:
Every reference in scripture is Jesus word - The Bible is the word of God, and Jesus is the word made flesh. Or are you now going to tell me that you don't believe that Jesus is God?
I could name several. I used BGAD (considered the foremost Lexicon used by Greek Scholars and translators) when we were last discussing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
When someone asks what the Bible says about homosexuality, my most honest answer is: "Nothing!" So how to deal with today's homosexuals? God is love and we are supposed to love God with all that is in us and our (gay/lesbian/bisexual/ heterosexual/transgender) neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-40).
Then please do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Then clearly you have not studied what scripture says. It has plenty to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
So why do you call them all liars when they receive Christ as Saviour and the Holy Spirit frees them from homosexuality?Quote:
So how to deal with today's homosexuals? God is love and we are supposed to love God with all that is in us and our (gay/lesbian/bisexual/ heterosexual/transgender) neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-40).
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