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I'll take a page out of your playbook and just say that I believe what the Bible says: It says in Acts 10 that although they had received a gift they still were immediately baptized. So it sure looks like baptism is pretty darn important. This certainly accords with the other two pericopes I adduced, and together all three seem to agree that baptism is required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I am definitely not saying that you must be baptized to have the Holy Spirit. But rather, as scripture says, ONLY those who are saved will have the Holy Spirit. The reference in Acts 10:47 shows that there are those who have the Holy Spirit already are subsequently baptized. The problem that those who believe in a works gospel requiring baptism before salvation have is that they need to argue that the Holy Spirit indwells non-believers, contrary to what scripture says.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Scripture is explicit that we receive the indwellling of the Holy Spirit when and only when we are saved. Water baptism is an act of obedience that follows.
There may be those who are water baptized from tradition, but they are not saved (though some who hold to the works gospel might say that they are).
That is a good example.Quote:
What about the thief on the cross with Jesus?
Agreed. Baptism is pretty darned important as an act of obedience after salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
How did you get from "pretty darn important" to "essential" when scripture clearly shows examples where people are saved prior to baptism? (i.e. Acts 10 and the other example given by Nohelp4u, the thief on the cross)Quote:
This certainly accords with the other two pericopes I adduced, and together all three seem to agree that baptism is required.
I note that once again you are consistent in not answering my question.
Sometimes repeating it in different words makes it easier to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Baptism follows conversion.Quote:
Baptism follows salvation also.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
According to Scripture, Baptism, a work, now saves us:
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
They received the Holy Spirit, that is true. But where does it say they were saved? If they were already saved, why did St. Peter insist they must be baptized?Quote:
Without gettuing into the whole argument again, we have an example in Acts 10 where there were those who received the Holy Spirit and were saved before being baptized:
Acts 10:47
47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"NKJV
Sincerely,
De Maria
I look at baptism more as a spiritual cleansing than actually saving.
"And grace is unmerited favour (nothing we have done - no works!)."
Yes, as I keep saying, grace is required for faith and grace is required for works. We do not earn grace, it is freely given. But the question isn't whether grace is required for salvation--everyone agrees that it is--but whether works and faith are both required. You say they are not. Unless you now mean to say that grace is sufficient for salvation? So faith isn't required anymore?
"You keep saying this but we are still waiting to see anything in scripture which says that. Your word is not enough for me."
Well, Tom, I've referred you about a jillion times to the passages that De Maria has provided both here and on the other thread. I've even provided the post #'s to make it easy for anyone who wishes to consult them. And you still haven't gone through them one at a time to show that we're all wrong to think that they show that works are necessary for salvation.
"The "law" is not just tghe Mosaic law, but refers to anyone who places themselves under a works gospel."
Where does it say that? Where do we find any mention in Scripture of a "works gospel"?
"The law of Moses was a constant theme in the NT because the context of where it took place was the land of Israel. But the principle extends beyond just the Mosaic law, for example:
Rom 2:14-16
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV"
Yeah, it's a constant theme because Paul is making the point that we don't have to obey the Mosaic Law in order to be saved; we don't have to be Jewish in order to be Christian. This was a hugely controversial issue in the early decaed of the Church and Paul is weighing in on it. There's nothing here that says, or even suggests that no works of any kind are required.
"He is. No one denied that both faith and works are important. It si whether works are required for salvation. But I note that you go after semantics rather than deal with the issue."
That's some strong tobacco you're smoking!
It still does not make it true if it was not true before. Now, as for the rest of your arguments, are you sure that you want to go down this path? We have been there before.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Each of your verses taken out of context can be addressed, but I do not need to since I and Nohelp4u have already shown 2 cases where people were saved without water baptism. Until or unless you can deal with those, any other arguments that you have are a moot point.
That's a pretty common misconception. It's actually both. (Though, of course, someone can be baptized and not be saved: They can, for instance, renounce their faith at a later time.)Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Maybe we should be defining works.
Like what would a life of a Christian be without works?
What would they be doing/not doing?
What fruit are they bearing? Like if you say you are a Christian and you go to church and read your Bible what more would the minimum be to qualify as doing works. Even non believers can do works, professing Christians do works so maybe the question is what works makes the Christians set apart to 'make' them saved if that is a requirement that saves them.
Hold on, Tj. I've got other things going on here and I don't always see your posts the instant you write them. I'll be right back.
Tom, I understand this to be "asleep" rather then "dead in Christ". It can be unintentional but it might be intentional. Either way it is best to be baptized and thus dead in Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
This becomes a judgement which is in the hands of Christ.
1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
The scripture goes on to say that even asleep in Christ thus meaning they do believe in Christ.
1 Th4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Note who is raised first, the dead in Christ.
1 Th 4:15 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Refer: 1 Cr 15:13-21
Your comments here were addressed. If and when you have something to address the points that I raise (rather than repetition, I am here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
And I (without the exaggeration on your part) have addressed and refuted those points. We have been through this loop before (you like repetition don't you :p )Quote:
"You keep saying this but we are still waiting to see anything in scripture which says that. Your word is not enough for me."
Well, Tom, I've referred you about a jillion times to the passages that De Maria has provided both here and on the other thread
Addressed in my last post.Quote:
"The "law" is not just the Mosaic law, but refers to anyone who places themselves under a works gospel."
Where does it say that? Where do we find any mention in Scripture of a "works gospel"?
Good point. But since there are some folk who hold to a works gospel, perhaps we should expand this to ask what works of an unsaved person are able to merit their salvation and are able to add to the insufficiency that they appear to feel exists in the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
sndbay,Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
I do not understand what you are getting at. The question was where in scripture do we find people who are unsaved but have the Holy Spirit. Can you explain how you relate these passages to that question?
There are many non Christian organizations that do good works.
Then a more person point would be take
Mother Teresa Christian did good works was a Catholic Christian
Princess Di did good works --was she a Christian?
What if Mother Teresa didn't do the good works she did? Would she be any less saved? Or saved none the less?
The question that I have asked those who hold to a works gospel is this. If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc. and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Very few of the works gospel folk will even dare answer that, but two to date have and have conceded that they believe that the man would go to hell.
THose who believe do have the Holy Spirit. Yet if for an intentional reason they don't do God's Will and their pride leads them toward a delusion which the Spirit permits, they can end up with intentional sleep in Christ. It is a form of double minded. The Holy Spirit can attempt to help but free will gives anyone that choice in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I hope that is understood..
I do not entirely agree with you or that that those verses would support your contention, but I do agree that failure to live your faith after being saved does have consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Would that be something like a backslidden Christian or a carnal Christian or a professing Christian or what?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Sorry I do have to run, I have company. Refer: 1 Cr 15:13-21Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Scripture is pretty clear about those things we need to do. But it is summarized in the words:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Jesus and St. James were very specific what these things were. The penultimate example, is of course, the parable of the Good Samaritan. In this parable, Jesus highlighted priests, on their way to worship and a Good Samaritan on his way to conduct business. The priests, who are considered the holiest of people, did not stop to help the injured man. But the Good Samaritan had pity on the man. Therefore, we believe, that even our worship is but dead works, if we don't love our brothers:
Matthew 5:24
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Then in Matt 25, Jesus explains that doing good to our brothers is as doing good to Him:
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
St. James never minced words. He truly lived by his adage:
James 1:8
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
His epistle was anything but doubleminded. He was explicit in his typically blunt manner of speaking:
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before Godand the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
These are the works which God wants.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Scripture says:Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Rom 3:22-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV
Therefore we are ALL condemned, but let's see the next part of that verse:
Rom 3:23-26
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV
This IS the gospel. The righteousness that we do not do and the sin that we do condemns us. Therefore there is no hope ion our works, but there is but one hope that is faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. It is HIS righteousness that saves us.
That's one of the problems with Protestant theology. They are consumed by the question of "are you saved?", "am I saved?". And in their impatience, they usurp the judgement of God and claim salvation for themselves, "I am saved! No one can take that from me!"Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Well, Scripture is clear that this is against the will of God:
1 Corinthians 4:4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Scripture tells us to live in hope of eternal life:
Hebrews 6: 18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; 20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Whether Mother Teresa would have been saved had she not accomplished good works is between God and herself. I'm certain, if she had a good reason not to attempt good works, God would forgive her. But I am not the judge, God is.
Sincerely,
De Maria
There it is in black and white. Faith and works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Righteousness that we do not do... condemns us. Therefore, if we do works of righteousness, we are saved.
the sin that we do condemns us. We are condemned by what we do just as we are saved by what we do.
Romans 2: 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Sincerely,
De Maria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Where in this reply did you show that De Maria is wrong to think that 1 Jn. Isn't telling us that works are required?
As for your quotation from Romans 3: Yes, faith is required for salvation. Faith AND works. Nothing in what you've quoted says that works ARE NOT required. Whereas De Maria has quoted passages that do seem to say this. Perhaps you could take each of these passages and explain how they are actually telling us that works aren't required for salvation.
As for the thief: It looks like he DID something, he performed a work, an ergon. How does this vitiate the claim that works, along with faith, are required for salvation?
You mean like Paul who claimed to know that he was saved? If indeed it is true that protestant theology focuses on salvation, then they are in good company.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Gal 2:18-20
19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
NKJV
1 Cor 2:1-3
And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV
Wow - I would hope that even Akoue would acknowledge the serious logic fallacy in that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
I never cease to be amazed how those who focus on a works gospel move the focus from Jesus and the all sufficiency of His work on the cross and His righteousness, to try to focus on our works and our righteousness.
BTW, who is it that does good works?
Rom 3:10-12
As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."
NKJV
And yet you say that unsaved men must do good to be saved.
Once again, read my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akoue
Keep repeating that works are required. I don't think that repeating it is a good substitute for actual doctrine from scripture, but perhaps some others will accept it. :pQuote:
As for your quotation from Romans 3: Yes, faith is required for salvation. Faith AND works.
You are changing the topic. That was in response to the claim that baptism specifically is essential for salvation. So now show us where the thief was baptized for his salvation.Quote:
As for the thief: It looks like he DID something, he performed a work, an ergon. How does this vitiate the claim that works, along with faith, are required for salvation?
"He did not call them Abraham's children, but a 'brood of vipers' [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, 'He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord calls them a 'brood of vipers'; furthermore in John 8:39-44 he states: 'If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did... You are of your father the devil.' It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today."
Martin Luther
"So who is Jesus and Martin Luther talking about here?
The offspring of Cain. Cain, born of the "Serpent" and Eve in the garden of Eden. It's all in Genesis.
Sooo, Eve had sex with a snake? I know the bible says with God all things are possible but come on, REALLY!Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob [QUOTE
And if you think it was a snake, I have another fairy tale for you. Actually, I have a bridge I want to sale you.
Seeing how you believe "snakes" can talk. Why did Adam and Eve cover their "private parts"?
Okay, goofus, which logical fallacy did she commit? Was it a formal fallacy or an informal fallacy? Every fallacy has a name, so name it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Question by TJ:
This question shows a fundamental misconception of baptism. Baptism is the regeneration by being re-born by water and the Holy Ghost, being born again in the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God’s Kingdom. Through matter (the water) and form (the invocation of the Holy Trinity) we receive a new spiritual life, rebirth declared to Nicodemus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism; 1. The baptism of water, 2. The baptism of desire, and 3. the baptism of blood. The first is a sacrament, the others being only an effect of baptism, the receipt of grace, and the remittance of sins. The latter two forms are only effective when baptism by water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism
It behoves us, then, with all our strength to steadfastly keep ourselves pure from filthy works, that we may not, like the dog returning to his vomit 2 Peter 2:22, make ourselves again the slaves of sin. For faith apart from works is dead, and so likewise are works apart from faith James 2:26 . For the true faith is attested by works.
Now we are baptized into the Holy Trinity because those things which are baptized have need of the Holy Trinity for their maintenance and continuance, and the three subsistences cannot be otherwise than present, the one with the other. For the Holy Trinity is indivisible. An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book IV) CHURCH FATHERS: An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV (John of Damascus)
In the case of Tj3’s friend, we see that there might be a certain regret. If this is the motivating force then I’d suggest that the poor man would not go to heaven. I can imagine that hell is full of hopeless requests. If on the other hand, there is a genuine repentance and desire to be reborn. Then I’d suggest that the poor man would be saved. In either case, the newly received faith has a requitement in works. Thus, in baptism we see, as it were, the gift of works.
JoeT
I read you post. You didn't say a word about 1Jn. So EXPLAIN: How does the passage from 1Jn which De Maria quotes NOT say that works are required? Don't quote me another verse; show me how she got THAT one wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Now, baptism. Baptism is a work. You still haven't explained how I was wrong to think that Titus and Jn. which I quoted above, say something other than what I claimed. It should be easy for you: Just tell me what they ARE saying, if they're not talking about baptism.
Back to the thief: Can God in his infinite mercy and power save someone who isn't baptized? Sure he can. It doesn't follow from this that we are not instructed to be baptized. He can save unbelievers, too, it he wants to. Does it follow from that fact that we shouldn't believe? Presumably not. Now, if I'm wrong about Titus and Jn. explain my error; explain to me what those verses are saying.
Akoue,
He lost that many times over a long period on other boards.
He refuses to accept that and I believe one of the main reasons is that it is a Catholic theological teaching as well as with some other denominations.
But as I have said before it is his right to believe as he wishes as long as he does not mislead other when he is obviously wrong.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Neither of these says that works aren't required. As I keep telling you, we all agree that faith is required, so providing verses that re-iterate that fact don't serve your purpose. You need verses which assert that works don't matter at all for salvation. The closest you've come is Eph.2 (whose grammar and terminology you screwed up) and Rom.3 and Rom.8, which are talking specifically about the Mosaic Law and say nothing about works in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Joe,
That was an excellent post on baptism.
It explains the theology of it very well making it quite easy to understand.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Hi Joe, Hi Fred. Good to "see" you guys.
Yes, Fred, it has come to look like his reason for rejecting it is just that the denominations he doesn't like teach it. He appears to be lashing out at boogymen. And very angrily, too.
Do you honestly mean to liken YOURSELF to the APOSTLE PAUL? (Nope, no humility there.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Akoue,
You got that right again.
Humility is and has been lacking a long time.
Fred
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