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Originally Posted by Peter Wilson

It's their best hook for taking people out of the Catholic church as Catholics have no explanation and little knowledge of the scriptures.

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I would suggest that Catholic's have an objective view of Christ based on Scriptures and Church Tradition and thereby resist subjecting God's will and God's salvation to their own purpose.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I would suggest that Catholic’s have an objective view of Christ based on Scriptures and Church Tradition and thereby resist subjecting God’s will and God’s salvation to their own purpose.

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On the money as usual Joe.

While Mr. Wilson's statement certainly was true in years past, I do think the last 100 years or so has lead to a profound appreciation and emphasis on Biblical understanding... and this may actually be a "fruit" of the Reformation and our non-Catholic brothers and sisters wonderful devotion to the Word of God.

But unfortunately, I think a lack of education on the history of the Christian faith is a detriment to those outside the RCC... ZachZ's questions were answered more than a thousand years ago by the Ecumenical Councils... and if more Christians were educated about this part of their history, I think it would be a lot easier to explain our faith to someone who has tough questions like his.

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Originally Posted by pnkrkmama

ZachZ its blatantly apparently that you asked a question which you DO NOT TRUELY want an answer to. It seems that you get off on your self righteous and rather annoying attempts to entrap well meaning christians in a game of semantics. Therefore, Im over it.
May God give you clarity.

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Duhhh this is me slapping myself in the forehead. Of course. You are the oracle with the unanswerable question. If these Christians come along and answer it, you are not. Which is why me telling you in my original response none of your answers are true led to you telling me I am not a Christian, which I couldn't quite see the reason for at the time.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B)

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.



Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

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Look at Judges 11:29--40, Deuteronomy 23:21--23, and Leviticus 27:26--29 they all mention human sacrifices under the law. St. Paul's letter to the Romans 11:19--36 is also helpful in understanding this issue.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

A question I have always wondered is why if Jews do not believe Jesus was the sacrifice then why do they not sacrifice animals any more like in the Torah and why when Jesus died did the veil tear?

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I had heard about this story of the Temple curtain (actually called the parochet) before but didn't know much about it. This turns out to be because the story of its tearing only seems to appear in the Greek writings. I found no references to it in any authentic Jewish historical documents. It is not in Josephus' Antiquities. It in fact only appears in one of the so-called 'synoptic gospels'--the story about it is curiously absent from the other three.

So what do Jews believe about the significance of this story? There is none, it's another uncorroborated, made-up story in the Greek writings.

If I had to invent a meaning for it, though, here it is: God is indeed mourning the death of His first-born son: Israel (as Israel is mentioned by name as His first-born son in Exodus 4:22). God saw the impending destruction of the Temple, expulsion of His chosen people from their homeland, and the invention of a new death-mythos religion centered around an apostate man-god that will account for the apostasy and deaths of millions of His children for centuries to come.

Why wouldn't this explanation be at least as satisfactory as yours?

But again -- this is off topic.

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

I had heard about this story of the Temple curtain (actually called the parochet) before but didn't know much about it. This turns out to be because the story of its tearing only seems to appear in the Greek writings. I found no references to it in any authentic Jewish historical documents. It is not in Josephus' Antiquities. It in fact only appears in one of the so-called 'synoptic gospels'--the story about it is curiously absent from the other three.

So what do Jews believe about the significance of this story? There is none, it's another uncorroborated, made-up story in the Greek writings.

If I had to invent a meaning for it, though, here it is: God is indeed mourning the death of His first-born son: Israel (as Israel is mentioned by name as His first-born son in Exodus 4:22). God saw the impending destruction of the Temple, expulsion of His chosen people from their homeland, and the invention of a new death-mythos religion centered around an apostate man-god that will account for the apostasy and deaths of millions of His children for centuries to come.

Why wouldn't this explanation be at least as satisfactory as yours?

But again -- this is off topic.

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Are you of strict Jewish faith and if so do you still sacrifice as required?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

I had heard about this story of the Temple curtain (actually called the parochet) before but didn't know much about it. This turns out to be because the story of its tearing only seems to appear in the Greek writings. I found no references to it in any authentic Jewish historical documents. It is not in Josephus' Antiquities. It in fact only appears in one of the so-called 'synoptic gospels'--the story about it is curiously absent from the other three.

So what do Jews believe about the significance of this story? There is none, it's another uncorroborated, made-up story in the Greek writings.

If I had to invent a meaning for it, though, here it is: God is indeed mourning the death of His first-born son: Israel (as Israel is mentioned by name as His first-born son in Exodus 4:22). God saw the impending destruction of the Temple, expulsion of His chosen people from their homeland, and the invention of a new death-mythos religion centered around an apostate man-god that will account for the apostasy and deaths of millions of His children for centuries to come.

Why wouldn't this explanation be at least as satisfactory as yours?

But again -- this is off topic.

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In all of Antiquities this is the only statement made of Christ; seems impressive to me that Josephus was scared to call him a man. So you should make a point that he doesn’t say “and the veil was torn”?

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day Antiquities of the Jews Book 18, Chapter 3.

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Originally Posted by ScottRC

...ZachZ's questions were answered more than a thousand years ago by the Ecumenical Councils.... and if more Christians were educated about this part of their history, I think it would be a lot easier to explain our faith to someone who has tough questions like his.

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I didn't even know they were something to study until now. One reason, is that I'm not catholic, so I only study the bible, or other ancient books.
When someone starts quoting anything other than the bible to support their view, I read it as only a curiosity, because those things are doing what we are, interpreting what the ancient books say, or contain. So catholics, or any religion, who reference their religion's 'guides to understanding', do not convince me of anything concerning my faith.

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Originally Posted by cogs

i didn't even know they were somthing to study until now. one reason, is that i'm not catholic, so i only study the bible, or other ancient books.
when someone starts quoting anything other than the bible to support their view, i read it as only a curiosity, because those things are doing what we are, interpreting what the ancient books say, or contain. so catholics, or any religion, who reference their religion's 'guides to understanding', do not convince me of anything concerning my faith.

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Cogs:

Let me recommend that you read just one or two of the “Fathers” of the Catholic Church. The ones listed as “Doctor” are theological doctors. These are usually the works relied on for Church Doctrine. Their writings go back to the very dawn of Christendom – some authors were likely to have known and communicated with the Apostle John.

St. Augustine of Hippo is my favorite – the City of God.

With Augustine, probably the most important is St. John Chrysostom. The issues some have been beating me about the head and shoulders were discussed in great detail – and they are Scripturally supported. So when a Catholic gives, as an example, a citation of St. Chrysostom they assume you understand there is a complete scriptural treatise behind the statement.

And if nothing else, it will broaden the base of your knowledge.

I recommend this particular site only because many of the Scriptures cited are linked to Scripture, Book and verse.
CHURCH FATHERS: Home

JoeT

Lol, when I try to say thanks, it gives me this:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JoeT777 again.

But thank you. In the blue letter bible online, I read the commentaries, mostly by matthew henry 1706-1714. I suppose that's what you gave me, commentaries that go way back. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by cogs

lol, when i try to say thanks, it gives me this:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JoeT777 again.

but thank you. in the blue letter bible online, i read the commentaries, mostly by matthew henry 1706-1714. i suppose that's what you gave me, commentaries that go way back. thank you.

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Well that's OK, my reputation is bad enough around here - I seem to rub against the nap somehow.

No, its not quite the same thing - its more a understanding the "roots" thing. But if that works for you, that's fine all the same. If it's the Catholic site that bothers you, there are others that carry it. Just Google it.

Thanks,

JoeT

ZackZ,
All three person in the trinity are of infinite and eternal attributes that includes power, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, ability, and much more.
Therefore God (the Father, or the Holy Spirit) could have raised Jesus, God the Son, from the dead.
The bible simply says that God raised Jesus from the dead not mentioning which person of the trinity did it.
From my point of view and that of the bible, that satifactorily answers your question.
:) Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

"]Agreed! It still astounds me that so many people try to get around using every rationalization in the book, no matter how specious! The Tanak says: God is not a man, No likeness of God was seen, God changes not, God is ONE. Why do you disagree?

Moses saw God face to face, so some-one did see the likeness of God.

Exodus 33:11

11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.


How-ever, I was making the point that we may not necessarily look like God, but we are MADE like Him.
In Genesis, God said,

26 Then God said, "Let US make man in our likeness in our image, , and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Notice God said "Our" not "My", and "Us" not "Me".

Again in Genesis 11
5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building.
6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

Again, God is talking to the Son and in agreement in the Spirit, go down as one.



You are saying the separate 'persons' of God have separate wills and it is (theoretically) possible for them to disagree with each other?

God is perfect, there is no shadow of turning, so no, it is impossible for Jesus or God the Father to disagree.
Each love to please each other and this is what they are trying to teach us.


OK which one of the three was killed on the cross? Which one did the resurrecting?

Why would you ask such an obvious question, you know who died for your sin, if you don't, then you will have to give account, standing on your own righteousness.

In John 10

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

Jesus lay down His own life in obedience to the Father, in doing this, God gave him the authority to take it up again.
Even though, ultimately, it was God's power that raised Jesus from the dead,
it was the authority over death, that Jesus, as a man, won back for mankind, the very authority that Adam forfeited to the devil.
Jesus, Himself now has the keys to death and Hades.

Revelation 1:18

18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.





I understand you believe it, but people believe all sorts of crazy, anti-biblical things.
It is clear to me that it wasn't God you were listening to when you chose to embrace these ideas.

How is it clear to you, you don't even seem to believe in God, how do you know how He reveals Himself to His people.
God is Spirit, therefore He is supernatural.
In the Old Testament, He revealed Himself in darkness and thunder and smoke and fire and various other ways.
If God actually shows up in the supernatural these days, no-one believes it.
If those that practice the occult have dreams or visions, then this is widely accepted and people chase after it.
I choose to believe God, I have seen the other side and inquired of it for years.
I even lived with a lady that was famous for her fortune telling, she read my cards one day, and told me that I would meet a girl with red hair, there would be a child, but it wouldn't be mine.
Her name would be "The dark one" and we would never be married.
I did meet a girl, called Kerry, this name means "the dark one".
She had red hair and she did have a child, she fell pregnant to some-one else while we were engaged, I was going to kill the other guy.
Twice I attempted it, the first time, an angel stopped me, the second time, God spoke to me in an audible voice and told me to "NOW,GO AND GET BAPTIZED"
Guess what, I did, and that's when I started to follow Jesus in truth.



Based on your answers, it appears that you are a polytheist. You believe in separate god-'persons' with individual wills. That makes 3 gods.

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What I believe in is that there is a Father , a Son who have separate personalities, and are separate people.
They have individual wills, but they join together as one will, and this is The Spirit of God,
Though the Spirit is much more, it is the joining together of all that is in the Father with all that is in the Son, thereby making a third person, truly God and truly Jesus.
Just as you and your wife are one, (if you have a wife, that is), you both have individual wills, but after marriage, come together to have the same will and desires.
God's idea for marriage is the relationship that He shares with His Son.
And the one that His Son wants to share with us.

John 17

9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

Cheers.:)

Peter Wilson,
Please don't use the light green color.
I can not read it.
Thanks.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

arcura, I'm so glad you said that( green) I thought my eye sight was failing for a minute there... phew!

Blessings

0rphan,
I'm happy that what I said may be of help for you and others who could not read that light green writing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

Look at Judges 11:29--40, Deuteronomy 23:21--23, and Leviticus 27:26--29 they all mention human sacrifices under the law.

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WHAT?????

Are we reading the same bible??

First off:

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Originally Posted by Deut 23:21-23

You may cause a gentile to take interest, but you may not cause your brother to take interest, so that Hashem, your God, will bless you in your every undertaking on the Land to which you are coming, to possess it. When you make a vow to Hashem, your God, you shall not be late in paying it, for Hashem, your God, will demand it of you, and there will be a sin in you.

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No mention of human sacrifice. Did you quote the wrong verse or something.

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Originally Posted by Lev. 27:26-29

However, a firstborn that will become a firstling for Hashem among livestock, a man shall not consecrate it; whether it is of oxen or of the flock, it is Hashem's. If among the unclean animals, he shall redeem it according to the valuation and add a fifth to it; and if it is not redeemed it shall be sold for its valuation.

However, any segregated property that a man will segregate for the sake of Hashem (חֵרֶם אֲשֶׁר יַחֲרִם אִישׁ לַיהוָה--cherem asher yacharim ish l'Adonay), from anything that is his -- whether human, animal, or the field of his ancestral heritage -- may not be sold and may not be redeemed, any segregated item may be most holy to Hashem.

Any condemned person [this is speaking of a criminal sentenced with a death penalty] who has been banned from mankind(חֵרֶם אֲשֶׁר יָחֳרַם מִן-הָאָדָם--cherem asher yochoram min-ha'adam) shall not be redeemed; he shall be put to death.

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No mention of human sacrifice.

As for Judges 11:29-40, this is God teaching the stupid Yiftach a lesson: Don't play games with God. The offering he will make is unknown to him at the time he makes it? Show me how this is accordance with the rules of sacrifice in Leviticus. The chronicles in Sofrim--especially one this indistinct--CANNOT override TORAH! If you want to find out about acceptable sacrifices, you look FIRST to TORAH, and then to Prophets. You may then read Judges with that understanding.

Even the Christian commentaries I read on this describe Yiftach as semi-pagan, for example:

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Originally Posted by Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Bred up as he had been, beyond the Jordan, where the Israelitish tribes, far from the tabernacle, were looser in their religious sentiments, and living latterly on the borders of a heathen country where such sacrifices were common, it is not improbable that he may have been so ignorant as to imagine that a similar immolation would be acceptable to God.

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And finally, I am not even sure why I have to argue this, because this chapter clearly isn't even an example of a sin sacrifice in the first place!

Let me be VERY clear: HUMAN SACRIFICE IS CLEARLY CIRCUMSCRIBED BY JUDAISM.

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

St. Paul's letter to the Romans 11:19--36 is also helpful in understanding this issue.

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Nothing from the Greek writings can be helpful.

I know there are some older posts I still am committed to respond to, and I apologize for not getting to them quicker, but BS"D I shall.

It is nearly Shabbos, good weekend to you.

How about the holy ghost, isn't that what landed on him when he was baptised by John the Baptist in the form of a Dove. Or the Holy spirit.

Yes the holy ghost is the third part of the triangle, sort of God's active force. Was supposed to have come on the Apostles at Pentecost and that is what is passed on to priests etc by the laying on of hands.

Well this is the way I interpete it, now mind you I am no Bible Scholar but from what they are saying, God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit are 3 divine beings in one which they call the Trinity. God says only through my " Son " can you enter the kingdom of heaven. Which means Jesus is a Separate being from his Father. But he works though the father like a Meidator from human to God, As Christ is our Adovacte and though his blood we are saved and shall not perish. So God Sent his only Son Down to us, so that we may have a Chance for eternal life, God did not send down himself, but his Son. And God is the one who Rose his son from the grave, but one does not work without the other, so it is called the Trinity.

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

WHAT?????

Are we reading the same bible???




No mention of human sacrifice. Did you quote the wrong verse or something.





Nothing from the Greek writings can be helpful.

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Yes I meant Dt 23:22-24
Well if you want to throw out the whole New Testament why even talk about Jesus then, He's not in the Old Testament since He hadn't been born. The verse from Romans I added not because I thought you needed it but because I don't want to open my inbox and find a lot of hate mail from people telling me what a jerk I am. My friends and relatives are in charge of telling me that.
The scriptures I hunted down, show that if you make a vow to God, you can't take it back. I would think the commandment not to kill would supercede a vow but apparently it doesn't. See Ez 3:3-5 Nm 30:2-3 I Sm 14:24-46, 15: 1-35 And once again New Testament Mt 5:33

(Even 2 Sm6:6-7 shows that God's law not to touch the Ark was true even though the man was only trying to protect it.)
These scriptures show that God's law and the Old Testament said not to be misled by false prophets Dt 13:1-10 Dt 18:15-22
Crimes against the Temple, Ez 6:11-12 and Mt 26:57-68, 27:11-26
So why "blame" the Jews if they were only doing exactly what they'd been told, and if they hadn't, would have been put to death themselves. That is the point of Romans chapter 11.
As others have said all this was figured out a long time ago, but if you want help with it I'm sure there are people here who would explain it all again. But if you just want to debate endlessly Christians are cautioned against that sort of thing.

wildandblue,
There are a lot of people who believe Jesus IS in the Old Testament but not with the Name of Jesus which was given to Him just before he was born.
I am one of those who believes God the Son, also now as the Word of God is in the Old Testament.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Please answer me this -- Is it valid to vow a sacrifice to HaShem that is clearly against His Torah? What if I were to say "I vow to steal $1,000 from my neighbor and dedicate it to HaShem." We all agree that stealing violates Torah commandments--at least two, clearly: Exodus 20:15, and Deut. 5:19. Is my offering acceptable? No. Is my vow valid? No.

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

why even talk about Jesus then, He's not in the Old Testament

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Agreed, and agreed!

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Originally Posted by wildandblue

I don't want to open my inbox and find a lot of hate mail from people telling me what a jerk I am.

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I don't think you or any other Christian is a jerk for being Christian, I just think you're misguided.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

In all of Antiquities this is the only statement made of Christ; seems impressive to me that Josephus was scared to call him a man. So you should make a point that he doesn’t say “and the veil was torn”?

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These references are forgeries, most modern scholars reject them as such. They were added to Josephus' original words centuries later by Christian scribes pushing their agenda. The church has a long history of editing and redacting Jewish documents, this is no different--you must be aware of this, right? There's no sound evidence Josephus thought this man was a messiah or god.

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

Are you of strict Jewish faith and if so do you still sacrifice as required?

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I am a Jew. My personal level of success or failure in my observance isn't relevant, as far as I can tell. Without a Temple standing, I am forbidden by Torah from attempting to bring a sacrifice to any other location. So I do the same thing now that Hashem instructed through prophet Hosea. Read Hosea 14:2-3. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his beloved nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to "render for bulls the offering of our lips." Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system.

This was what the Jews did after the destruction of the first Temple, and it's what we do now after the destruction of the second. If you think it invalidates Judaism, then you have to say Jesus was no proper Jew, because his own ancestors were decades without a Temple and forbidden from bringing sacrifices too. When the true Messiah comes and the third Temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will once again resume as before.

John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
(KJV)

John 15:26
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
(KJV)

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Originally Posted by In Sorrow

Well this is the way i interpete it, now mind you i am no Bible Scholar but from what they are saying, God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit are 3 divine beings in one which they call the Trinity. God says only through my " Son " can you enter the kingdom of heaven. Which means Jesus is a Seperate being from his Father. But he works though the father like a Meidator from human to God, As Christ is our Adovacte and though his blood we are saved and shall not perish. So God Sent his only Son Down to us, so that we may have a Chance for eternal life, God did not send down himself, but his Son. And God is the one who Rose his son from the grave, but one does not work without the other, so it is called the Trinity.

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3 'beings' = 3 gods. If I were to ask a polytheist about his beliefs, he would say he believed in 3 'beings' which are 3 different gods. How is your view any different from a polytheist?


I am quickly coming to the conclusion that people get around the problem of the 'trinity' by simply not believing in it! I've seen several responses now from people who claim to defend the trinity but actually show themselves to be 'oneness' believers and modalists and closeted polytheists. Not even Christians seem to really understand what their own 'trinity' claims to be!

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

I am a Jew. My personal level of success or failure in my observance isn't relevant, as far as I can tell. Without a Temple standing, I am forbidden by Torah from attempting to bring a sacrifice to any other location. So I do the same thing now that Hashem instructed through prophet Hosea. Read Hosea 14:2-3. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his beloved nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to "render for bulls the offering of our lips." Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system.

This was what the Jews did after the destruction of the first Temple, and it's what we do now after the destruction of the second. If you think it invalidates Judaism, then you have to say Jesus was no proper Jew, because his own ancestors were decades without a Temple and forbidden from bringing sacrifices too. When the true Messiah comes and the third Temple is rebuilt, sacrifices will once again resume as before.

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Thanks for answering my question. So just for my clarification, in your belief, the new testament is invalid? And if so what does that make Jesus.

You also say "when the true messiah comes" so if He has not come then how are you assurred salvation if you were to die today.

All this is not to set you up just for my education. Thanks

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

These references are forgeries, most modern scholars reject them as such. They were added to Josephus' original words centuries later by Christian scribes pushing their agenda. The church has a long history of editing and redacting Jewish documents, this is no different--you must be aware of this, right? There's no sound evidence Josephus thought this man was a messiah or god.

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No, I was totally unaware that they were considered forgeries. Can you validate that Josephus' comments to this regard as being forgeries? You do know that most scholars in this field don't hold this view.

But, let me point out that Josephus was first quoted by you. Is it only a forgery when his statements seem to support Christendom?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

Not even Christians seem to really understand what their own 'trinity' claims to be!

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No, we don't. It's a mystery and beyond our human understanding. Logic can't explain it. It comes down to faith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

the new testament is invalid?

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Correct. Although the Greek writings are a hugely popular and influential group of books, they are invalid as authoritative scripture like the Jewish bible indeed is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

And if so what does that make Jesus.

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One of many, many failed messiahs and false prophets:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deuteronomy 13:1-5

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you

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I think this is a pretty good description of him and his fate.

Did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob direct their prayers to Jesus? Or to HaShem (the 4-letter Name of God)? Jesus was a god unknown to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. My forefathers did not pray to Jesus, and so I don't either.

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

You also say "when the true messiah comes" so if He has not come

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It will be a "he" and not a "He". The Jewish messiah is not God or any kind of deity or part of a deity. He will be a normal human man, born of natural human parents. This man will fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies (oversee the rebuilding of the third Temple, bring world peace, universal knowledge of God, etc.. -- all the things Christians relegate to the '2nd coming' box) in his own lifetime. Because these things are unfulfilled, we know he has not come yet.

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

how are you assurred salvation

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Salvation from what?

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Originally Posted by mountain_man

if you were to die today.

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Christians seem to have a peculiar notion that all God wants is for you to have a certain thought in your mind at the moment of your death. This dogma is in stark contrast to the teaching of Torah.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, we don't. It's a mystery and beyond our human understanding. Logic can't explain it. It comes down to faith that allows one to believe it is possible.

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Yours is Answer C. It is sad that you think God wishes you for you to shut down the intelligent, inquiring mind He gave you.

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

Yours is Answer C. It is sad that you think God wishes you for you to shut down the intelligent, inquiring mind He gave you.

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How do you figure? You understand everything in your life? What about chukim?

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

I sure do! And I am happy to talk logic! I feel we sure could use some here. So let's get started:

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Ok.

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My question is only "loaded" problematically IF I am making an incorrect assumption. Such as in your example:

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Ok.

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the question can only be shown to be "loaded" and therefore invalid if the underlying assumption--that the person you are asking is indeed beating his wife--can be shown to be untrue.

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Not exactly. Whether the person is beating his wife is beside the point. The question is loaded because there is no way for the individual to answer the question without implicating himself, whether he is guilty or not.
Loaded question - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Therefore my question back to you is: What is the underlying assumption in my question that you can demonstrate not to be true?

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As I explained before. You presupposed only three answers to your question. And you then gave those three answers your own interpretations leading to your false underlying assumption that that Jesus is not God and that God is not a Trinity.


So, lets dissect your three answers:

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Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

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This violates the 'trinity.'

Not at all. The Trinity is defined as three Persons in one God. The three Persons share the
One Divine nature.

There is only one Divine Nature. Otherwise there would be three "eternal" Gods and that is impossible by definition. There is only one Eternal God, therefore the three Persons of the Trinity share the one and only God nature.

In other words, each Divine Person is God.

If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting.

Not at all. A nature, such as a human nature is shared by many. You and I are both human and share a human nature. But the Divine nature is eternal. Therefore there is only one because there is only One God.

But a person is a character with separate characteristics which are not shared by other persons. As it pertains to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, their personhood is relational. The Father is in the Son, but the Father is not the Son. The Son is in the Father but the Son is not the Father. The Holy Spirit is in the Father and the Son but the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Therefore it is perfectly logical to say that the "Father resurrected Him" since the Father is a separate person but fully God.

God the father resurrected him

Again, what do you mean by God the Father resurrected Him? If you mean that God the Father resurrected God, then you don't understand the meaning of death. As I have shown, death in a man is death of the physical body. Even in you and I, when we die, my Church and even Jewish teaching says that our spirit will live.

Therefore when the human body of Jesus Christ was no longer animated by His Spirit, Jesus Christ is said to have died. But Jesus' Divine nature continued to sustain the world. God rules supreme over death.

I'll continue with dissecting your presupposed answers in separate messages as this one is getting quite long.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't
made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

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If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die,

That is false. Jesus is God and Jesus died. Here's the logical syllogism.

1. Jesus is God.
2. Jesus died on the Cross.
3. God died on the Cross.

But again, what does death mean?

Spirits are said to die when they are separated from God. But that is not true death, just a manner of speaking. They in fact, continue to exist, they are not exitinguished. And since spirit is a synonym for life that means they continue to live.

Only physical bodies die. And they die only when their animating spirits no longer animate their bodies. But their spirits are not extinguished. Therefore, when someone or something dies, it is because their spirit no longer animates their bodies. But the spirit continues to exist. It is not extinguished and therefore continues to live.

God, the Supreme Spirit, is never extinguished. God is eternal.

Therefore, when we logically deduce that God died on the Cross, we mean that Jesus' human body was no longer animated by His Spirit. But His Spirit was never extinguished.

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and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of
humanity?

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That is false.

Jesus is either God or He is a liar or a maniac. Anyone who has ever read the Scriptures knows that Jesus claimed to be God. One example will suffice:

John 8 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

And Jesus provided the evidence to prove that He is God by raising the dead, healing the sick, multiplying the fish and the loaves and turning water to wine. These things were testified by many witnesses. And His followers, many of them could also perform such miracles as he empowered them to perform.

So, if Jesus was simply a man as you claim and he was killed on the cross. Then his sacrifice amounted to a mad man or a liar who died for a lie. And the sacrifice does not atone for all the sins of humanity.

But, If Jesus is God as He claimed and proved by His miracles, then His sacrifice on the Cross amounts to exactly what Scripture says it does:

Isaias 53 5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

And these Old Testament prophecies can only refer to one person:

Wisdom 2 12 Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life. 13 He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. 14 He is become a censurer of our thoughts. 15 He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are very different.

16 We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father. 17 Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. 18 For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. 20 Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words.

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Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah,

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That is correct. Therefore the Jews violated the commandment of God when they used the Romans to murder Jesus on the Cross.

John 11 49 But one of them, named Caiphas, being the high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing. 50 Neither do you consider that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51 And this he spoke not of himself: but being the high priest of that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation. 52 And not only for the nation, but to gather together in one the children of God, that were dispersed. 53 From that day therefore they devised to put him to death.

John 18 14 Now Caiphas was he who had given the counsel to the Jews: That it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

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and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

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Not so. It is on the Cross that Jesus fulfilled the entire Jewish law. It is on the Cross that the shortcomings of the Jewish law of works are highlighted. The Christian religion is based upon a higher standard than the Jewish religion. Because it is based on the law of love.

John 15 13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

The Jews decided to sacrifice Jesus for the good of the people and Jesus honoring the Jewish authority permitted this to happen:

Matthew 23 2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.

Jesus obeyed unto death.

And God revealed even in the Old Testament that He didn't want sacrifices:

Jeremias 6 19 Hear, O earth: Behold I will bring evils upon this people, the fruits of their own thoughts: because they have not heard my words, and they have cast away my law. 20 To what purpose do you bring me frankincense from Saba, and the sweet smelling cane from a far country? your holocausts are not acceptable, nor are your sacrifices pleasing to me.

God wants a contrite heart and a humble spirit. That is the sacrifice He has always wanted:

Jeremias 7 22 For I spoke not to your fathers, and I commanded them not, in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning the matter of burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this thing I commanded them, saying: Hearken to my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk ye in all the way that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear: but walked in their own will, and in the perversity of their wicked heart: and went backward and not forward, 25 From the day that their fathers came out of the land of Egypt, even to this day. And I have sent to you all my servants the prophets from day to day, rising up early and sending.

And it is Jesus who offered the perfect sacrifice:

Romans 12 1 I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.

And we are to follow in His steps:

Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

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If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up.

Not so. It is a mystery of love. Why did God do something He didn't need to do. Why did He become incarnated and join the human race? Why did He enter Creation?

It is a mystery which is beyond human comprehension. But Scripture is clear that God did just that:

Philippians 2 5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross. 9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names: 10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

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You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

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What illogical incompatibility? Are you saying that it isn't possible for God to become man?

Well that is simply a statement made against the evidence.

1. That God would enter Creation and take the form of a man is prophecied in the Old Testament as previously shown.
2. That the Godman would be tortured and sacrificed for the sins of humanity is also prophecied in the Old Testament.
3. That Jesus fulfilled those prophecies is also documented by eyewitness testimony.
4. That Jesus produced many miracles to prove His Divine nature is also documented by eyewitness testimony.

So, your statement is simply an opinion against the evidence. Evidence which would hold up in court.

Sincerely,

De Maria

To continue with your message:

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

RE: definition of death: I have no problem with your definition, let's use it.

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Ok.

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You are still providing Answer B: No sacrifice. God sent a man He created to go get himself killed. No negative effects reached God Himself. So what real sacrifice was there? No true sacrifice = no atoning death possible.

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As shown in my previous message addressing answer B directly, Jesus is either God or a mad man or worse, a liar. If Jesus is not God, then you are correct:

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. 14 And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he hath raised up Christ; whom he hath not raised up, if the dead rise not again.

16 For if the dead rise not again, neither is Christ risen again. 17 And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ, are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

However, the evidence of Scripture and the evidence of history which I did not address shows that Jesus was indeed God and that the eyewitnesses to His deeds believed He is God and went to their deaths proclaiming His Divinity.

And His Teachings are universally accepted as the wisest of teachings. Therefore, we believe that He is God and have literally bet our eternal souls on that fact.

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If mine is a 'loaded question' you still have to show me what my incorrect underlying assumption is.

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I hope I have done so adequately.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Originally Posted by ZachZ

Here's a question I've been asking that no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for that does not clearly violate simple rules of logic, or trinitarian Christian theology. I truly believe it's the kernel of truth that has the power to crack apart trinitarian Christianity.

The question is:

"If Jesus is supposed to be fully man and fully God, and died on the cross... then WHO resurrected him?"

Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

All 3 choices - A, B and C - crack apart the foundation of Christianity.

Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

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I will say one thing. The Trinity! The Trinity is three beings in one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Throughout scripture these are all represented of three individuals but of the same spirit (similar characteristics but different roles, sorry I had to define it as similar spirit but truly there is no other way to explain it, that I can think of anyway.) When Jesus cried out Father why have you forsaken me this shows a relationship such as a father and son relationship (This has to be two people not one!) therefor the answer is simple it was not God the Son who resurrected himself but God the Father who resurrected Jesus. (And just to finish the trinity after Jesus went to be with his father he sent God the Holy Spirit again this is not God the Father or God the Son but totally a different entity but of the same spirit. )

PS. If you would like scripture to show what I have just said to be true to scripture, I have tons of verses. (used in context; usually I will use the hole chapter and highlight the subject verse as not to take it out of context.)

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

No, we don't. It's a mystery and beyond our human understanding. Logic can't explain it. It comes down to faith.

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There is a very simple logic to this. With your children if you have them or not think of this. If a person gave you the choice of either you taking the bullet in your head or in your child's head which would you chose. (sorry son but it will only hurt a little bit) or (Son no matter what happens know that I love you, now please turn away.) And this is what God did for us! He took the bullet and I find it funny how we blindly turn our heads and do not acknowledge this. And this is the base at which we should look at the trinity there is a logic to it and it is very simple just like this but we as humans try to make it more complicated then it has to be(I like the KISS factor myself! :) )

I answerd the Trinity on the other part but I will repeat it in a simple term that they are three different entitys but of the same Spirit.

Ps. (using the term of the same spirit was also used in the bible to describe ilisha who was of similar spirit (likeness) to his master.)