No. Jesus established one Church. Men caused the Protestant Reformation, divided the Church and established denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I've answered in more detail in the other response.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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No. Jesus established one Church. Men caused the Protestant Reformation, divided the Church and established denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I've answered in more detail in the other response.
Sincerely,
De Maria
If Jesus did not establish a denomination, then the reformation did not divide the church.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Scripture says that Jesus established the body of believers, which cannot be divided. That being the case, most of your arguments evaporate since they are based upon your assumption of your denomination being the church which Christ establish.
No use arguing against protestant churches or reformed churches. I am not a member of either.
This is what Scripture says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How do you define "denomination" and where do you see it in Scripture?
Sincerely,
De Maria
First, denominations do not exist in scripture, therefore no denominations, including yours were in existence in the first century or established by Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Like most errors, taking a verse out of context can be seen by reading the context. Read the passage of scripture just before that verse to see what Jesus said that He would build his church upon. But this topic is a distraction because we agreed that Jesus did not establish a denomination, so let's consider what it was that He did establish.
As I indicated previously, my Bible indicates that He established the body of believers - do you agree?
The Body of Christ is His Church, His Bride. We are made up of many parts. Not just one specific church. Each has its purpose and function just like a real body has different parts. No one part is supreme to the whole. The body can't function without the liver or walk without the legs.Quote:
The reason, because I believe Jesus established one Church:
Matthew 16
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
We need each other and need to stop inter-denominational bickering. We need to be unified so that we can conquer Hell as Jesus said we can.
All who are members of he body of Christ are united through the Holy Spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
We conquer hell? Reference please.
savedsinner7,
You are right as far as that goes.
I noticed that the bible tells us who Jesus was talking to when He spoke of that.
They were his apostles, disciples, and followers all.
The same when He spoke of unity.
They are the members of His Church (assembly: as translated from Aramaic).
They later met in homes, caves and other places to worship. Early on they begin building place to meet and worship which became known as Churches.
But the true Christian (as they called themselves) members of the Church are the Church and I do believe it is right and proper to call the buildings they have build out of Love for God that they also are called Churches.
It is very sad that there are now over 30,000 so-called denominations and God knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Note that the very first members thereof were basically united in unity.
Very soon after that some converts started breaking way, teaching their own ideas rather than what Jesus immediate followers were teaching as He Instructed and the fragmentation began and it continues like a run away train yet today.
It is fortunate that some of the larger denominations are working for unity.
I hope Jesus' prayer for unity will some day soon be fulfilled.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
So, do you believe that everyone who attends such meetings are saved and are members of the body of Christ?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Scripture speaks of unity in the body of Christ which come from God (Jesus prayed to the Father for this unity, He did not command us to create the unity).
Jesus prayer was fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell believers. Jesus never prayed for unity in denominations, or indeed does scripture command unity within church organizations (i.e between believers and unbelievers). Quite the contrary.Quote:
It is fortunate that some of the larger denominations are working for unity.
I hope Jesus' prayer for unity will some day soon be fulfilled.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
1 Cor 11:17-20
18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
NKJV
Through the work that Jesus did on the cross. We are joint heirs with Him, He conquered hell and death, He lives in us and we are conquerors with Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Romans 12:21
Don’t let evil conquer you, but conquer evil by doing good.
Jeremiah 20:11
But the Lord stands beside me like a great warrior.Before him my persecutors will stumble.They cannot defeat me.They will fail and be thoroughly humiliated.Their dishonor will never be forgotten.
1 John 5:4
For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.
Revelation 12:11
And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamband by their testimony.And they did not love their lives so muchthat they were afraid to die.
Revelation 17:14
Together they will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them because he is Lord of all lords and King of all kings. And his called and chosen and faithful ones will be with him.”
Our bodies are made of many parts. The body of Christ is made of many parts. ALL are necessary to function to the fullest.Quote:
It is very sad that there are now over 30,000 so-called denominations and God knows how many who call themselves non-denominational.
Denominations are not part of the body of Christ. Individual believers are.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
1 Cor 12:27
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
NKJV
Denominations are organizations of men made up of believers and non-believers.
This is different than conquering hell. Hell is a place of torment of those who have rejected the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. This refers to the fact that in Christ and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we gain a victory over sin in our lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
Also, you said that we need to be unified to make this happen. Where is this found in scripture?
savedsinner7,
You are right. Jesus established one Church, the one He called "My Church" and that the bible refers to a The Church.
No matter what the bible says there are those who refuse to believe what Jesus and the bible says about that.
They keep talking about denominations when in fact there were none when Jesus established His Church.
Denominations came along after the detractors started fragmenting what Jesus founded.
That is authentic, historical fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The first denomination that has been identified was in 325 AD formed by Constantine (confirmed by Cardinal John Henry Newman and others), and the next notable denomination started in 1054 at what is commonly referred to as the "Great Schism".
The church that Jesus founded (the body of Christ) has not and cannot be divided since it is composed solely of those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, regardless of what local church or denomination they may attend.
Tj3,
You might as well get it right by telling the whole true story.
During the years after Jesus founded His Church with Peter as it's first leader several other groups were formed that called themselves a church; some as far away as Egypt. That was LONG before The Church that Jesus founded decided to change the name to Catholic Church to signify that IT is the Universal Church.
That's history, Tom, and nothing you say can change that fact.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
You said previously that Jesus did NOT found a denomination. Now you say that He did. There is nothing to substantiate the claim that Peter was the head of any denomination, Roman Catholic or otherwise, or indeed that any denomination existed in the first century.
Let's see what Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry Newman says:
"We are told in various ways by Eusebius that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and those dedicated to the particular saints, and ornamented on occasion with branches of trees, incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness, holy water, asylums, holy days and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by adoption into the Church."
That's history, Fred, and nothing you say can change that fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Point of Fact does not show traditions but instead : you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
I am showing Peter as he loved Christ. Peter did as Christ asked him to do. I do not make Peter the foundation of a church. The foundation is Christ, perfect in every way. Christ is the Rock in which Peter will stand upon to give feed to the sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
No scripture has not lost it's Truth.. Would you darn say the Holy Spirit has lost force? The Holy Spirit brings forth Truth in scripture. Traditions are brought forth by man that can defile men.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
And scripture goes on to say Mark 7:14 And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mark 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Why? Your answer is Mark 7:21
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8 :18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.
Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
These scripture firmly tell us who to follow, and it is not man and not his traditions.
Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jesus says the scripture testify of Him. I fully believe in the power of God. It is He that brings forth Truth.
The church will stand firm teaching scriptures which testify of Christ to the sheep. Feed them the Truth and not traditions of men that defile. Love God above all, Have no other Gods, Keep the Sabbath Holy.. The Sabbath is Chirst, Christ is our rest..
sndbay,
Christ and the Holy Spirit guide The Church yet today.
So it stands firm as the bride of Christ Jesus and has for 200 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Hmmm... Jesus has been the head of my church and the Holy Spirit has guided my church for 2000 years. Sorry to hear about yours!
:D
Tom
Fred, Who stands firm as the bride of Christ are those who believe. Those who remain stedfast in the Word of God, and stay within the light. And nothing is given to man that didn't come from heaven. (John 3:27)John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Hear the Word Fred, (John 3:33-34 )He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
John 3:35-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I'm not going to debate legalism with you. I believe that Jesus gave us His power to overcome Hell and Satan and all of his demons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I am not talking about legalism, but scripture is clear that it is Jesus who defeated Satan, and that hell is part of God's creation where Satan and his followers exiost for all eternity. You are planning to defeat part of God's creation?Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
2 Corinthians 10:3-5 (New Living Translation)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
3 We are human, but we don’t wage war as humans do. 4 [a]We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments. 5 We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.
Zechariah 9:15
The Lord of Heaven’s Armies will protect his people,and they will defeat their enemies by hurling great stones.They will shout in battle as though drunk with wine.They will be filled with blood like a bowl,drenched with blood like the corners of the altar.
Revelation 12:11
And they have defeated him by the blood of the Lamband by their testimony.And they did not love their lives so muchthat they were afraid to die.
1 John 5:4
For every child of God defeats this evil world, and we achieve this victory through our faith.
2 Corinthians 6:6-8 (New Living Translation)
6 We prove ourselves by our purity, our understanding, our patience, our kindness, by the Holy Spirit within us,[a] and by our sincere love. 7 We faithfully preach the truth. God’s power is working in us. We use the weapons of righteousness in the right hand for attack and the left hand for defense. 8 We serve God whether people honor us or despise us, whether they slander us or praise us. We are honest, but they call us impostors.
Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is your refuge,and his everlasting arms are under you.He drives out the enemy before you;he cries out, ‘Destroy them!’
1 Samuel 24:4
“Now’s your opportunity!” David’s men whispered to him. “Today the Lord is telling you, ‘I will certainly put your enemy into your power, to do with as you wish.’” So David crept forward and cut off a piece of the hem of Saul’s robe.
Luke 10:19
Look, I have given you authority over all the power of the enemy
savedsinner7,
None of these say that we "defeat hell" and defeat Satan. Some speak about how God has defeated Satan and has given us authority, but once again that is His victory, not ours. None of the verses even mention hell.
Those were my points. And I think that these are important points because I believe that it is important that we give God all the glory for defeating Satan. Second, I think that it is important that we acknowledge that hell is not something evil, but rather that those who are evil and align themselves are evil are placed in their because of their rebellion against God, and because they have turned on God's people. It is therefore not hell that needs to be defeated, but rather hell is the symbol of the defeat of Satan by God.
1 Cor 15:56-58
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
NKJV
Tj3 and sndbay,
I think you both know that that was a typo.
I meant 2000 years.
Thanks for pointing out my error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
No problem. I just hope that you also realize that no denomination has existed for 2000 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Yes, Jesus has the victory, but WE are joint heirs with Him and the victory is ours through Him.
Why are you hung up on one thing that I said instead of getting the idea of what I said? Do you not wage warfare?
Tj3,
What I was saying is that The Church Jesus founder with Peter as it's first leader is 2000 years old so the bible and authentic history tells us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
savedsinner7,
When Jesus said that the GATES of hell will not stand against it one must keep in mind that a gate is a battlement to keep people out.
The Church helps save souls who were destined to hell before the salvation offered by God and the sacrifice and resurrection of the Lamb of God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And I am preparing to storm those gates to set the people free! I am prepairng to conquer hell's hold on those whom Jesus has called His own!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
savedsinner7,
Excellent!!
I hope for and wish you great success in that endeavor.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Agreed. But the question is, victory over what, and who won that victory?Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
I am not hung up on it - I originally asked you for clarification, and was actually surprised at your clarification. I do think that it is important to have a clear view of what Jesus accomplished and to give God all the glory. The other concern is that we not mis-understand, as some religions teach, that hell is the domain ruled by Satan, which is how your comment that we are to defeat hell came across. That is why I asked for clarification.Quote:
Why are you hung up on one thing that I said instead of getting the idea of what I said?
The question is not "do I", but how and against what, and in whose strength does the victory lie?Quote:
Do you not wage warfare?
No such denomination exists. The Bible says no such thing. I have asked you to validate this from scripture a number of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Jesus did not start a denomination, but rather is the head of the body of Christ, which is the one and only true church whose members can be found in many local congregations and denominations throughout the world.
I was brought up as a catholic, and wanted to become a priest when I was in primary school. I was very dedicated to the catholic traditions, but felt that there should be more.
I went through my teenage years doing drugs and getting into all types of sinful behavior, like most catholics that I know. How-ever, when I was 21, even though I was living a sinful lifestyle, I still used to pray.
I was standing in my parents back yard in Adelaide and asked God to let His light shine through me to other people so that I could help them.
I walked into the house, and as I did, something washed over me and I started to speak in tongues. I had never heard about tongues, and didn't find out about it until 15 years later, when I became a Born again Christian, but that's another story.
After this I had 3 dreams, one , I was in a Catholic church and my back got really hot. I turned around and it was raining blood and fire on the church. I was taken out of there in the spirit and taken back to before the world was formed. The Holy Spirit was there, or at least, that's who I believe it was. He stood there wearing like a white monks habit and had his head bent forward slightly, so I couldn't see His face. He had his hands together, inside his sleeves. I could see the earth, but it was black and void. I looked around and saw a light coming down from space, it reflected onto something and shone onto a big screen that stood beside the one dressed in white. It was my life, all written down and moving up the screen slowly. I heard a voice, very loud, that sounded like thousands of voices, or one loud voice and I knew it was the voice of God. I was very afraid and woke up shaking and sweating.
The other dreams, in a shortened version, is I went to hell and stood at the very gates of hell, I could see the flames flickering on the walls and the heat again on my back. There was a power pulling me into hell, I started saying, " Jesus is my Saviour, I love Jesus!" and the power stopped pulling me. I started to walk away, but the power started to pull me again. I quickly started to say jesus name again and continued to say His name until I got out of the cave.
The third dream was I was on a boat, exactly like you would imagine Noahs ark, it was nighttime and there was a war going on. The enemy gunship was firing onshore, so I told the others on the boat to jump off and swim to shore as I was going to ram the enemy with the ark. They jumped and I turned the ark towards the gunship. They didn't see me until it was too late, we crashed and sank immediately.
I was sucked under and was swimming to the surface thinking, "I'll make it, I always do"
Suddenly I stopped swimming and realised that I was dead, and thought, "Well, I might as well wake up now."
I didn't understand the meaning of these dreams then, but I do now.
After this happened, I would be out the backyard, praying in tongues, but I didn't know it was tongues, I thought that I made up a new language myself, I never even thought of relating it to God.
The Holy Spirit started talking to me and told me to get baptized by full immersion, believing what I was always taught, I said " where do I go, the protestant church the Lutheran church, I thought that this (the Catholic church) was supposed to be the one true church?"
The Holy Spirit then told me to go and see this guy that I used to be one of the suppliers of the Buddha sticks that I used to get.
I didn't know that he got busted and went to jail and became a born again Christian in jail.
I thought about it, and told the Holy Spirit, "If I don't settle down in the world by the time I am 35, then I will find you then, even if i have to become a priest or a monk or even a nun!"
The trouble was, I loved my sinful lifestyle too much. How-ever, when I was 35, my world fell apart, my fiancée took off with another man and I tried to kill him twice, the first time, an angel stopped me, or at least I believe it was, I was in a deserted street, in a country town at 5 in the afternoon, I dragged this guy out of the car and started to punch him in the face, I was going to punch him to death, when this man, about 6'10" tall and very well built, stepped between us and said" that's enough, go home", I said"get out of the way this is between him and me". He repeated it again, " Enough, go home" so I did.
The next time I went to his house and a voice told me to not take a club with me, then as i was about to kick the door in the voice said no, so I knocked on the door and my fiancee was there. I finally broke up with her very calmly, then and walked out .
As I was walking away, I thought "Hang on, that's not what I came here to do." and stopped to turn around. Suddenly, an audible voice spoke from above my right ear and said " NOW, GO AND GET BAPTIZED".
Needless to say, I did, and though expecting nothing to happen, as soon as I came out of that water, I was changed, I immediately felt clean, and as I walked around that meeting, I looked at the faces of the people, whom I had never met, and had this intense feeling that I had come home.
That was 18 years ago, and have seen many miracles in my life since then.
You know that when Jesus asked His disciples who do men say that I am, and Peter said that He was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, He called Peter a stone, not a rock, (Petros, not Petra), and it was upon Peter's statement of faith that Jesus is the Son of God that the Church would be built, not on Peter. Jesus is the Rock that the builders rejected, He is the Rock upon which we stand.
Peter was a pillar of the Jerusalem Church, along with James and John, Paul was sent to the Gentiles. When Paul wrote to to the Church in Rome, he never mentioned Peter's name, because he was in Jerusalem. He may have been taken to Rome to be killed, but there is no record of it anywhere, it is just tradition.
Peter was married and took his wife with him when he travelled.
In 1 Corinthians 1, Paul tells the believers in Corinth not to be divided, not to follow Paul or Apollos or Peter, but to follow Christ. That remains the same today, we follow the risen Christ, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the only name under which we can be saved (Acts 4:12), and the only advocate with the Father is Jesus, (1John 2:1)
I don't think any of this is important, debating over scripture, but it's fun. The main thing is to get real with God, be willing to say, " Father, if I am not in the right place, and you don't tell me, because I am asking You now; then, when I stand before you on the day of judgement, then I will say, it is your fault, because I asked you, but you didn't tell me.
Have fun, be blessed, take it straight to Jesus, don't make gods out of all the other, so called saints, it won't look good on your resume when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ and He says, "I never knew you." Get to know Jesus personally, He's a great guy, always willing to listen, and funny too, He makes good things happen when you least expect it.
Tj3,
Why can you not get it through your head that denominations did not com along until the reformation.
You Ignore what the bible clearly says and authentic history.
Why?
Peace and kindness, Fred
Peter Wilson,
That is an interesting story.
Thanks for sharing it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Why, Fred? Because I have studied both secular history and church history, and I know better. I have also studied the Bible and have found no denominations in the Bible either, not yours, not any denominations.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
If you think that you can refute the historic facts, then, deal with the issue and post your rebuttal rather than attacking the person. That would be a more effective approach.
Sorry I took offense to this. Hell is the place set aside for Satan and his demons. When I speak of conquering hell, I refer to its inhabitants. :) I know that the victory is Jesus's, but we are also in this with Him and we get to claim that victory through Him!Quote:
The other concern is that we not mis-understand, as some religions teach, that hell is the domain ruled by Satan, which is how your comment that we are to defeat hell came across. That is why I asked for clarification.
I see what you are saying, but personally, I don't claim the victory over Satan - I give God all the praise for that victory because without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, I would be helpless. It is all Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by savedsinner7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I know where I end up without Him. I was a gutter junkie addicted to whatever I could get. He is my Strength and my Song, He is my Victory...
Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and my song;he has given me victory.This is my God, and I will praise him—my father’s God, and I will exalt him!
Exodus 15:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 15 (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 118:14
The Lord is my strength and my song;he has given me victory.
Psalm 118:13-15 (in Context) Psalm 118 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 12:2
See, God has come to save me.I will trust in him and not be afraid.The Lord God is my strength and my song;he has given me victory.”
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