I sympathize. De Maria does seem to go off on unrelated tangents.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
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I sympathize. De Maria does seem to go off on unrelated tangents.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I see. When I bring up the Seraphim, I'm going off topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
When you bring up Mormon teaching, you don't go off topic.
Hmmm? Interesting sense of justice.
The difference is that I was simply indicating that the Roman catholic teaching quoted by saintjoan sounded like the Mormon teaching that heaven was like hell (everlasting burnings).Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
That has nothing to do with angels.
Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
When the fire appeared in the bush, it was not consumed. When the tongues of fire rested on the Apostles they were not burned.
Obviously, putting on the armor of Christ protects us from being burned by the Consuming Fire.
But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?
Deuteronomy 4 24 Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Sincerely,
De Maria
DM,Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
You said that this is the fire in heaven that you will be in - everlasting burnings and yet scripture speaks of the "Consuming Fire" as indicative of how God destroys His enemies.
Deut 9:3
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV
Are you really claiming that this is the everlasting fire that you will be in after death?
But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?
So when the Bible says JESUS is the lamb of God Jesus is literally a Lamb because it does not say Jesus is LIKE a lamb?
saintjoan agrees: The fundamentalists would quote 2 Peter 2:20Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
? I don't see how the fundamentalists would compare 1 Peter 2:20 to the after life.
I can see how the Catholics would though.
De Maria,
Yes, you are right again.
God is our judge. We are not our own judge on anything divine including who goes to heaven.
For someone to claim that their salvation is sure is an attempt to take final judgment away from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
So, it appears that what you are saying is that even if God tells us that we have assurance, you are saying that God does not have that right.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV
Interesting argument, but it appears to show a low view of God.
Tj3,
Not at all.
I believe what the bible says.
That God IS the final judge.
Then why do you deny what the Bible says - that gospel comes with assurance of salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV
God is the final judge and this is God's judgment. You say you believe it, and then you deny it.
Tj3,
No matter how you twist it, Tom Smith, the bible indicates that God Is the final judge. Only He will decide who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory, or hell.
Accept it and you will be far better off with the truth of the matter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I accept it. You seem to say that you when he makes his call, you don't accept it. Your approach is like saying "God can be God, but if I don't like what he say, I won't acknowledge it".
Once again, here is God's judgment as to whether we have assurance of salvation:
1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV
I notice that you refuse to acknowledge this verse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I think you are trying to shove a passage down Fred's throat that is only partially relevant. God is our final judge; can that be disputed? BUT we have a assurance of salvation if we KNOW and produce fruits of what Jesus and the Bible teaches; we can be confident with where we will spend eternity BUT God still remains the final judge of everyone! Would you not agree TJ3
2 Peter 1
1SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace (God's favor) and peace (which is [a]perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and [b]freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, [c]precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [[d]full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).
4By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.
5For this very reason, [e]adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in [f]exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence),
6And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety),
7And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love.
8For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [[g]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
9For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [[h]spiritually] shortsighted, [i]seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.
11Thus there will be richly and abundantly provided for you entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
God is the judge and scripture not only says that we have assurance, but it say that God will judge based upon whether we have justification through Jesus. He says that if we have received Jesus as Saviour then we have the absolute assurance of salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Fred says that we don't know. I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
By you saying we "have the absolute assurance of salvation" assumes that God doesn't even need to be involved in the final judgement when we die. What about the Bible relaying that there are certain people that will claim to heal, prophesy in Jesus name, and cast out demons but in the end He will "I have never known you"
I don't think we need to do good works in order to be saved, I believe that salvation is a gift that we except and through that gift are saved BUT we must live a life congurant with that belief we must show the fruits of personally knowing Jesus and perserve to win the race and grow to be more like Jesus each day. In my opinion we can't just accept Jesus as saviour and then continuing living as we have because of an "absolute assurance of salvation"
Am I understanding your position correctly?
How can one be saved if God has not been involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Note that God said that He never knew them (i.e. never saved).Quote:
What about the Bible relaying that there are certain people that will claim to heal, prophesy in Jesus name, and cast out demons but in the end He will "I have never known you"
No one that I saw has said that and I most certainly never said it, suggested it, nor do I believe it. In fact, if you have been reading my posts, I explained that unless one exhibits faithfulness, we have reason to question their faith.Quote:
In my opinion we can't just accept Jesus as saviour and then continuing living as we have because of an "absolute assurance of salvation'
This is, however, much different than saying that we have no assurance, because God made promises in scripture and assurance does not come with those promises (as scriptures says it does), then that is in effect a denial of God's word and God's faithfulness.
mountain_man,
I agree with you.
God was, is and will be the final judge of every one of us.
That is why the bibles that we must work out out salvation with fear and trembling and HOPE for our salvation.
Romans 12: 24. In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping, nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible.
25. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.
Roams 12: 11. In the service of the Lord, work not halfheartedly but with conscientiousness and an eager spirit.
12. Be joyful in hope, persevere in hardship; keep praying regularly;
13. Share with any of God's holy people who are in need; look for opportunities to be hospitable.
Gal 5: 5. We are led by the Spirit to wait in the confident hope of saving justice through faith,
Col 1: 23. As long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel, which you have heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become the servant.
1 Thes 5: 8. but we belong to the day and we should be sober; let us put on faith and love for a breastplate, and the hope of salvation for a helmet.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
And when God judges those who are saved, He does not see what we have done, but rather sees the righteousness of Him who has saved us:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Rom 4:21-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV
I have His righteousness imputed to me, and I am justified through His sacrifice on the cross. What does God say about that?
John 6:37-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV
And it is because of that we can, as scripture tells us, have absolute assurance of salvation:
1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake
NKJV
I trust God. I trust God's gospel. I trust the promises of God. I trust that the sacrifice on the cross is sufficient.
Those who have received the Holy Spirit and have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them should have no doubt of salvation and should have absolute assurance in the faithfulness of God and His promises. We need not fear that His judgment will turn against us if we have received the true gospel.
OK I was raised as a baptist so I always believed once saved always saved - then I became church of christ and realised that yes you can loose your salvation. It is not like GOD just forgets about you!! Because he doesn't!! I believe you can fall away from GOD and into sin - everyone does it and no one is perfect!! You just have to have the strength to come back to him!! And admit you were wrong!! And be forgiven!! The only way you can loose your salvation is if you really fall away from him and don't come back and just really don't listen to anyone that is trying to help you!! GOD BLESS!!Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
It is not a case of "losing your salvation" vs "once saved always saved".Quote:
Originally Posted by geegi-babydoll
Scripture is clear that you can reject your salvation willingly, but nowhere does it allow us to simply lose our salvation without making a decision to turn away from it. In fact scripture explicitly states the opposite.
Can You Explain That For Me A Little More!!
How can anyone know anything?Isn't knowledge an assumption we use to move through the world?Does the world respond to what you expect from her and offer you a reflection?Do I know anything?We seem to know to eat, breathe, you MUST know something just for yourself.I DO know that to be pessemistic probably doesn't help so maybe act like a god and even be good?You'll be right... I thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by mountain_man
Scripture tells us that we have assurance of salvation. It tells us that no one can snatch us from His hand. Therefore we are secure in our salvation and cannot lose it.Quote:
Originally Posted by geegi-babydoll
Scripture is also clear that we can reject His salvation, or willfully choose to turn away from God. Though we cannot just 'lose" it, we can knowingly and willfully turn away from it.
geegi-babydoll,
You are right. The bible tells us several way a person can lose their salvation as I outlined in my earlier post of this subject,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
You have showed ways that people can willfully reject salvation, but I am still waiting for a single scripture based example of where one can "lose" salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
Please read my earlier post on this subject.
But in short just one of the ways a person can lose their salvation is this.
If a person who supposedly has been salved for so reason refuses to forgive others, then that person will NOT be forgiven.
I personally know such a person who has passed away and I do pray that on her death bed she did forgive.
If your sins are not fogiven you are not pure and therefore not allowed into heaven.
Matthew 6: 14. `Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours;
15. But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either.
Another way to lose it is in this case.
A person who had been saved for some reason sins against the Holy Spirit.
Jesus tells us that such a sin will Not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)
Amen... and this leads me to believe the confusion about this is mainly a matter of "language"... as I doubt anyone other than the most rabid OSAS'er would claim that we can't even turn away from our salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Fred, this passage was not aimed at Christians, but at the multitudes. This is not to say that we who are saved do not need to forgive - we do - but this does not prove that one can lose their salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
This refers specifically to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is something done willingly, therefore this would be turning against the Holy Spirit, not losing your salvation.Quote:
Another way to lose it is in this case. A person who had been saved for some reason sins against the Holy Spirit.
Jesus tells us that such a sin will Not be forgiven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)[/QUOTE]
Tj3,
Never-the-less regarding both cases I mentioned, from my point, of view salvation was lost.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I acknowledge that these represent your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
Thank you.
I do the same with your opinions.
Fred
You mean the quotes that I give validating my views with scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
That is kind of you to suggest that my opinions are so well aligned with scripture.
Tj3,
Never mine, Tom.
You use pits an pieces scripture in attempt to support what you want to believe.
I use all of the bible not just bits and pieces.
But, Fred, I do use scripture (and I do use all of the Bible but I do not intend to copy and paste the whole thing here), and I use it in context. I do not copy and paste references from someone else's website (as you have), but rather I study the Bible for myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Tj3,
You have proven to me and others that when you are TRYING to prove that the bible says what you want it to you use picky choosey Scripture to prove it and ignore what other verses say.
Or you interpret Scripture your personal way.
So it is with you.
False accusations and ad hominems do not make for a sound argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
What if you refuse to be baptised, or think it is not necessary to be baptised. I have viewed the choice of some that feel it is not necessary. Would it be wise not to receive this gift of The Holy Spirit from baptism?
And what was that unforgivable sin in Luke 12:10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
What does scripture say about receiving the Holy Spirit?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV
Rom 8:9-11
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of
righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit
who dwells in you.
NKJV
Rom 8:16-17
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if
children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him,
that we may also be glorified together.
NKJV
2 Cor 1:21-23
21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also
has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
NKJV
So scripture says that those who believe will receive the Holy Spirit. But the world (unsaved) will not receive the Holy Spirit:
John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor
knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV
How do we receive the Holy Spirit according to scripture? Let's look back at the first verse that we referenced which shows that the Holy Spirit indwells believer, John 7:39:
John 7:38-39
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of
living water." 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him
would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV
This says that the Spirit is given to all who believe. Scripture is also clear that the Spirit comes by faith and not by works:
Gal 3:5-6
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV
In summary, the Holy Spirit comes to those who believe and only those who believe. We in fact have a specific example given in scripture which is specific that the Holy Spirit is given after belief and before water baptism:
Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard
the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit
NKJV
Note that the Holy Spirit fell upon them as they heard the word. We have already seen that the Holy Spirit only comes upon those who believe, so we know that they believed. But notice that it was after that, that they received water baptism. We therefore know from specific and clear teaching in God's word that water baptism is not a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit.
What about remission of sins? Doesn't this verse say that water baptism is required for remission of sins? Using the same approach as we did previously, let's examine what scripture says about the requirements for our sins to be remitted.
Matt 26:27-29
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of
sins.
NKJV
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding
of blood there is no remission.
NKJV
Luke 24:46-47
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it wasnecessary for the Christ to
suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
NKJV
Acts 10:43
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will
receive remission of sins."
NKJV
Matt 26:28
28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of
sins.
NKJV
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. Nowhere in scripture will you find any statement which says the same about water. It is only through the blood of Jesus shed on the cross that we are saved.
The first problem in understanding this verse comes if we read it by itself and not in the context of the whole of scripture. Let's start with the local context.
What is the topic that Peter is speaking about? If you look earlier in the passage, Peter is preaching Jesus, preaching about Jesus death and resurrection on the cross, and indeed preached salvation though believing Christ, for example:
Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
NKJV
And we have already seen that the larger context of scripture does not agree with the interpretation that the Holy Spirit and salvation requires water baptism. And yet that is what this verse appears to say when read by itself. How can that be? It has to do with the grammatic structure of the sentence.
Let's look at a different example - If I told you that I took an aspirin for a headache, would it mean that I cannot have the headache without the aspirin? Of course not! If aspirin gave headaches, the company selling aspirins would be bankrupt. We take aspirin because we have a headache, not to get the headache.
Likewise, we are baptized, not to receive salvation, have our sins remitted and to receive the Holy Spirit, but, as we saw in Acts 10:47, because it has already occurred. The act of baptism is our response to have received salvation.
If we look at the original Koine Greek in which this passage was written, the word for is the Greek word “eis”. This word has a wide range of meanings and could carry with it the intent of either for, as Acts 2:38 is too often interpreted, or it could carry the intent of “because of”, which would make Acts 2:38 consistent with the rest of scripture. We have many passages in scripture where “eis” carries the intent or concept of “because of”, for example:
Matt 12:41
41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it,
because they repented at (eis) the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is
here.
NKJV
The word "at" is eis. Now did they repent so that they would have the preaching of Jonah? Or is it the other way around?
Rom 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
NKJV
Were we baptized to cause His death?
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis) repentance, but He who is coming after me is
mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy
Spirit and fire. NKJV
Were they baptized with water to get repentance or because they repented?
The point is that the intent of “because of” is commonly used both in English and in Koine Greek, and that is the only sense in which the word “eis” can be understood in the context of scripture for it to be consistent with the rest of scripture. With that in mind, let's have another look at Acts 2:38:
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV
So now understanding that the intent of “eis” in context is “because of”, we could read this to say:
“Repent, and then be baptized because you have received remission of sins and the Holy Spirit.”
So far I have not dealt with the reference to repentance, but repentance is used almost
interchangeably in scripture with believing in Christ when salvation is being discussed and for good reason – when one comes to Christ, one must repent. Let's look at some verses on repentance:
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the
kingdom of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand.
Repent, and believe in the gospel."
NKJV
Mark 6:11-13
12 So they went out and preached that people should repent. 13 And they cast out many
demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.NKJV
Luke 13:2-4
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.NKJV
Acts 3:19-22
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of
refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of
restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since
the world began.
NKJV
Acts 8:21-23
22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your
heart may be forgiven you.
NKJV
None of these even suggests or mentions baptism as essential for salvation.
What if someone thinks that it is unnecessary or refused? It may be a sin, but if you point the finger at those who sin in one way, be careful:
Rom 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV
We have all sinned. If sin keeps us from being saved, then we are all without hope.
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