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  • Mar 20, 2007, 02:52 PM
    Will144
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Morganite
    Discrete means separate and distinct.

    I am pleased that you have the Bible, but then so have I, and so have millions of others. That still leaves my question to you unanswered. What did Jesus mean when he said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." If you do not have the truth, how are you (or anyone) free from error and false belief?

    M:)

    The truth is The New Covenant (Jn 6:53, Mt 6:17-26, Lk 22:15-20). That is the truth. If God opens your eyes to understand the scriptures, not have knowledge of them, but understand the scriptures and God's purpose for us. You will see that The New Covenant, in other words, The Passover is the truth. It is the only way we can be raised up at the last day. That is the truth. And through the Passover we are set free of sins as long as we keep the Passover, the feasts of God and the Sabbath. Yes, that is the only truth Jesus left all over the bible, but yet man chooses to ignore and come up with their own concepts and ''discretes''.
  • Mar 20, 2007, 08:25 PM
    Morganite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Will144
    The truth is The New Covenant (Jn 6:53, Mt 6:17-26, Lk 22:15-20). That is the truth. If God opens your eyes to understand the scriptures, not have knowledge of them, but understand the scriptures and God's purpose for us. You will see that The New Covenant, in other words, The Passover is the truth. It is the only way we can be raised up at the last day. That is the truth. And through the Passover we are set free of sins as long as we keep the Passover, the feasts of God and the Sabbath. Yes, that is the only truth Jesus left all over the bible, but yet man chooses to ignore and come up with their own concepts and ''discretes''.

    I have read what you have to say about Jesus and pesach but I cannot follow your line of argument or reasoning. It seems to me that you make vast leaps of logic based on little real evidence of connection.

    Do I read you right when it appears to me that you totally discount the crucifixion as a meaningless piece of theatre that contributes nothing to mankind's forgiveness, atonement, and salvation?
  • Mar 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
    Will144
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Morganite
    I have read what you have to say about Jesus and pesach but I cannot follow your line of argument or reasoning. It seems to me that you make vast leaps of logic based on little real evidence of connection.

    Do I read you right when it appears to me that you totally discount the crucifixion as a meaningless piece of theatre that contributes nothing to mankind's forgiveness, atonement, and salvation?


    Jesus celebrated Passover right before the crucifixion. He died for our sins but he eagerly wanted to eat the Passover where can obtain the forgiveness of sins. Do you think it is fair that he died once and then we all get to sin as much as we want and be forgiven? No way, He came and established the new covenant and fulfilled the prophecies by being crucified. We need to celebrate the Passover to have forgiveness of sins. The crucifixion is important by he said to celebrate the Passover. Therefore, we must obey, shouldn't we?
  • Mar 22, 2007, 07:01 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Will144
    Jesus celebrated Passover right before the crucifixion. He died for our sins but he eagerly wanted to eat the Passover where can obtain the forgiveness of sins. Do you think it is fair that he died once and then we all get to sin as much as we want and be forgiven? No way, He came and established the new covenant and fulfilled the prophecies by being crucified. We need to celebrate the Passover to have forgiveness of sins. The crucifixion is important by he said to celebrate the Passover. therefore, we must obey, shouldn't we?

    I asked this question in another thread. Are you saying that we have to keep one or more points of the "Law" in order to be saved?
  • Mar 22, 2007, 08:41 PM
    Morganite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Will144
    discrete. No need for "discrete" when you have the bible. I do not have the truth, God knows the truth. I myself have no truth,in fact, no men has the truth; but I follow the truth because it has been given to me freely, therefore freely i have to deliver it. I preach the truth because it is God's will that we deliver if we find the truth.

    The Church that Jesus Christ established 2,000 years ago which has been raised up again by God's will has the truth. And this church has the very truth. Specially the truth of the New Covenant (The Passover) .

    Pardon me, Will, but if, as you say above, you do not have the truth, then how can you preach the truth?

    What is the name of this new cult?



    M:)
  • Mar 22, 2007, 08:54 PM
    Morganite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Will144
    Jesus celebrated Passover right before the crucifixion. He died for our sins but he eagerly wanted to eat the Passover where can obtain the forgiveness of sins. Do you think it is fair that he died once and then we all get to sin as much as we want and be forgiven? No way, He came and established the new covenant and fulfilled the prophecies by being crucified. We need to celebrate the Passover to have forgiveness of sins. The crucifixion is important by he said to celebrate the Passover. therefore, we must obey, shouldn't we?


    What is there about the meal Jesus ate with the Twelve in the uppper room that forces you to conclude that this was a Passover meal? In the synoptic gospels Jesus, it is said, eats a passover meal before his passion, but in John's gospel he doesn't. The last supper recorded in John;s gospel is actually eaten before the beginning of pesach.

    Jesus did not say "Celebrate pesach." That is wildly inaccurate and distorts the scriptural records.

    What Jesus did was to institute a memorial meal, "This do in remembrance of me, etc ... " He makes no mention of pesach.

    John Chapter 13
    John 13:1
    1 ¶ NOW before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

    John 13:2
    2 And supper being ended,
    the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him;

    John 13:3
    3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

    John 13:4
    4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

    John 13:5
    5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.

    John 13:6
    6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

    John 13:7
    7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

    John 13:8
    8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

    John 13:9
    9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.

    John 13:10
    10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

    John 13:11
    11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

    John 13:12
    12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

    John 13:13
    13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am.

    John 13:14
    14 If I then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

    John 13:15
    15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

    John 13:16
    16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    John 13:17
    17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

    John 13:18
    18 ¶ I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted his heel against me.

    John 13:19
    19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he].

    John 13:20
    20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    John 13:21
    21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

    John 13:22
    22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.

    John 13:23
    23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.

    John 13:24
    24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.

    John 13:25
    25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

    John 13:26
    26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon.

    John 13:27
    27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

    John 13:28
    28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.

    John 13:29
    29 For some [of them] thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy [those things] that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

    John 13:30
    30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

    John 13:31
    31 ¶ Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.

    John 13:32
    32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

    John 13:33
    33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

    John 13:34
    34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    John 13:35
    35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

    M:confused:RGANITE
  • Mar 23, 2007, 03:01 PM
    Will144
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Morganite
    Pardon me, Will, but if, as you say above, you do not have the truth, then how can you preach the truth?

    What is the name of this new cult?



    M:)

    It's a cult but yet I quoted everything that Jesus said? You call a cult a church that follows the teachings of Christ rather than man? I hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and not your own traditions. God Bless and take care.
  • Mar 23, 2007, 05:05 PM
    Morganite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Will144
    It's a cult but yet I quoted everything that Jesus said? You call a cult a church that follows the teachings of Christ rather than man? I hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and not your own traditions. God Bless and take care.

    Every church or religious ovement or group is a cult. Oxford English Dictionary.

    The only change to that comes from mean Christians that use the word 'cult' solely in a pejorative sense. Christians are NEVER pejorative. NEVER.

    What is your denomination?

    I have no traditions but scripture. Sorry If I made you think I had. I don't know how that happened.


    M:)
  • Apr 2, 2007, 10:19 PM
    arcura
    I believe that when Jesus said that we should know the truth and it will make us free He was talking about what He (God the Son) would teach us via both word and deed.
    Every word He said; every thing He did all together (if we learn from them and follow them) will set us free from being enslaved by this world and being lost souls.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
  • Apr 19, 2007, 11:04 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Jesus never proclaimed divinity for himself nor did he ask his followers to worship him. In fact he prayed to God himself like a true subservient slave. After Christ, the religion and texts were tampered with and there is clear evidence from the early centuries of the adding and expounding of books, e.g. Council of Nicea in the year 325.

    The word Trinity cannot be found in the bible but it is mentioned in the Qur'an:

    O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Trinity!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. [4:171]

    Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]

    Jesus (peace be upon him) had given glad tidings of Muhammad and it is binding now upon all Christians to follow him. Muslims believe Jesus to be one of the greatest of all messengers. We believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for that would be against his mission. Nor was he crucified as Allah says in the Quran:

    "And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them" [4:157]

    Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. But this time not as a messenger but as a leader of the muslims following the commandments of the Qur'an the legislations laid down by Muhammad. He will be a proof against the Christians as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:

    116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

    117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

    118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."

    119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

    120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.
  • Apr 20, 2007, 12:12 PM
    arcura
    fitnahpolice,
    I'm sorry, but Jesus did indicate his divinity several ways as has been shown in originally post of this thread.
    I believe that the Triune God is the one and only true God.
    The word trinity does NOT have to be in the bible to make it so.
    Or do you believe the silly notion that if something is not mentioned in the bible it does not exist?
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Apr 20, 2007, 03:24 PM
    Retrotia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
    Jesus never proclaimed divinity for himself nor did he ask his followers to worship him. Infact he prayed to God himself like a true subservient slave. After Christ, the religion and texts were tampered with and there is clear evidence from the early centuries of the adding and expounding of books, e.g. Council of Nicea in the year 325.

    The word Trinity cannot be found in the bible but it is mentioned in the Qur'an:

    O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Trinity!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. [4:171]

    Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]

    Jesus (peace be upon him) had given glad tidings of Muhammad and it is binding now upon all Christians to follow him. Muslims believe Jesus to be one of the greatest of all messengers. We believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for that would be against his mission. Nor was he crucified as Allah says in the Quran:

    "And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them" [4:157]

    Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. But this time not as a messenger but as a leader of the muslims following the commandments of the Qur'an the the legislations laid down by Muhammad. He will be a proof against the Christians as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:

    116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

    117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

    118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."

    119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

    120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

    Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. I don't need any Nicene doctrine about the Trinity either to believe His deity. Matthew 26:63-64, The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ(or Messiah), the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say,"Jesus replied. Jesus didn't speak openly much about being the Son of God because He would not have been able to teach & do the will of the Father-He would have been persecuted sooner.
    The Bible gives God's PLANof salvation. It's a simple Plan. And it is for all who come to faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter whether you worship a mercedes or a plant or a moon god now, it is for all.
    Also, I'm sorry but I can refute your statements that Mohammed is mentioned in the Bible from the other thread that Muslims mentioned.
    Also, the plan of salvation in the Bible is different from the plan of salvation in the Koran.
    We bring that to attention. If fact what Muslims believe will happen in the end-time is a slap in the face to Christianity & Judaism.
    Also again, the accuracy of the Bible argument holds no weight-it's pure propaganda.

    Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes)
  • Apr 20, 2007, 06:36 PM
    arcura
    Retrotia,
    Regarding all that you posted about the Koran, I believe none of it. Rather I believe Jesus to be who he said his is.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred
  • Apr 21, 2007, 04:35 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
    Jesus never proclaimed divinity for himself nor did he ask his followers to worship him. Infact he prayed to God himself like a true subservient slave. After Christ, the religion and texts were tampered with and there is clear evidence from the early centuries of the adding and expounding of books, e.g. Council of Nicea in the year 325.

    The word Trinity cannot be found in the bible but it is mentioned in the Qur'an:

    O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh)[] created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers. Say not: "Trinity!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allâh is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. [4:171]

    Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allâh is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilâh (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilâh (God -Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. [5:73]

    Jesus (peace be upon him) had given glad tidings of Muhammad and it is binding now upon all Christians to follow him. Muslims believe Jesus to be one of the greatest of all messengers. We believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for that would be against his mission. Nor was he crucified as Allah says in the Quran:

    "And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them" [4:157]

    Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. But this time not as a messenger but as a leader of the muslims following the commandments of the Qur'an the the legislations laid down by Muhammad. He will be a proof against the Christians as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:

    116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

    117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

    118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."

    119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

    120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

    You Muslims say that Jesus Christ was a prophet of God. You deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus did claim to be the Son of God. (See references below) Which is it? If Jesus was a prophet, then He told the truth about Himself and His Father. If He lied, then Muhammed was wrong, and Jesus was not a prophet. The Q'ran was written by only one man. The Bible was written by many men who were inspired by the Holy Ghost. The list of Scriptures that follow is only a small sampling that I could send on this subject. Will you say that ALL of the relevant passages were changed? What a ridiculous charge! By the way, there are millions of Christians who do not worship Mary, maybe none do.
    John 10:30
    30 I and my Father are one.
    (KJV)

    Matt 7:21
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    (KJV)

    Matt 10:32
    32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    (KJV)

    Matt 11:27
    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
    (KJV)

    Matt 12:50
    50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
    (KJV)

    Matt 20:23
    23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
    (KJV)

    Matt 26:39
    39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
    (KJV)

    Luke 24:49
    49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
    (KJV)

    John 10:29-30
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
    (KJV)

    As to the crucifixion:
    Mark 8:31
    31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
    (KJV)

    John 3:14
    14 And as Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    (KJV)

    In conclusion, you are betting your eternal soul that the one man (Muhammed) is right and that the many (NT authors) are wrong.
  • Apr 21, 2007, 05:21 PM
    ordinaryguy
    This is classic. Dueling quotes from competing holy books. If only you could see how absurd it looks to those of us who are not within either camp of true believers. You have no impact whatsoever on each other except to arouse one another's righteous indignation, and you reinforce the view of the rest of us that you are both irrelevant. What a waste of time and space. If you really want to make a difference, get off the computer, tell your spouse you love him/her, play with your children, and enjoy the company of your friends.
  • Apr 21, 2007, 05:29 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
    This is classic. Dueling quotes from competing holy books. If only you could see how absurd it looks to those of us who are not within either camp of true believers. You have no impact whatsoever on each other except to arouse one another's righteous indignation, and you reinforce the view of the rest of us that you are both irrelevant. What a waste of time and space. If you really want to make a difference, get off the computer, tell your spouse you love him/her, play with your children, and enjoy the company of your friends.

    If you don't like the exchange, why are you here? I don't have to change anyone's mind, but there are people who read these posts who may not have had anyone express things in the particilar way that I, or anyone else does. In short, there are probably undecideds reading. Do you consider this to be a problem?
  • Apr 21, 2007, 09:47 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston
    If you don't like the exchange, why are you here? I don't have to change anyone's mind, but there are people who read these posts who may not have had anyone express things in the particilar way that I, or anyone else does. In short, there are probably undecideds reading. Do you consider this to be a problem?

    Relax galveston :) He's just an 'ordinary guy' trying to waste some time and space on the computer... let him have his fun time too! :p

    If he thought the discussion was useless, he wouldn't be here! Maybe it was worth a click.
  • Apr 21, 2007, 11:00 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Curious: So if Jesus was God, who did he pray to? Himself? If you say he prayed to the Father, this means all 3 components of the Trinity can be worshipped separately!
  • Apr 21, 2007, 11:31 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Retrotia
    Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. I don't need any Nicene doctrine about the Trinity either to believe His deity. Matthew 26:63-64, The high priest said to him, " I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ(or Messiah), the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say,"Jesus replied. Jesus didn't speak openly much about being the Son of God bc He would not have been able to teach & do the will of the Father-He would have been persecuted sooner.
    The Bible gives God's PLANof salvation. It's a simple Plan. And it is for all who come to faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter whether you worship a mercedes or a plant or a moon god now, it is for all.
    Also, I'm sorry but I can refute your statements that Mohammed is mentioned in the Bible from the other thread that Muslims mentioned.
    Also, the plan of salvation in the Bible is different from the plan of salvation in the Koran.
    We bring that to attention. If fact what Muslims believe will happen in the end-time is a slap in the face to Christianity & Judaism.
    Also again, the accuracy of the Bible argument holds no weight-it's pure propaganda.

    Manuscript Evidence for the Bible (by Ron Rhodes)

    On the contrary what you believe will happen at the end of time is a slap in the face of justice. No person will bear the burden of another and every man shall pay for his own deeds. None will die for another - not even a Prophet! Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for our sins. But he lived to show us how to stay away from sins. He lived to show us the light and the path to paradise.

    Salvation is not simply having faith in Jesus as our savior. True salvation is in being Jesus-like - in his obedience to God, his character, and in every aspect of how he lived!
  • Apr 22, 2007, 10:42 AM
    Retrotia
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
    On the contrary what you believe will happen at the end of time is a slap in the face of justice. No person will bear the burden of another and every man shall pay for his own deeds. None will die for another - not even a Prophet! Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die for our sins. But he lived to show us how to stay away from sins. He lived to show us the light and the path to paradise.

    Salvation is not simply having faith in Jesus as our savior. True salvation is in being Jesus-like - in his obedience to God, his character, and in every aspect of how he lived!

    You are close with regards to salvation. Except that it is backwards." True" salvation comes from faithin Jesus. The obedience is a process by which "we" put to death the sinful nature (of the flesh) to become more Christlike and therefore live by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit, the one you fail to credit, brings to memory the teachings of Christ. (And brings much, much more)

    About the end-time comment. You do not know God of the Bible to claim that He isn't the One who makes justice in the 1st place.Who is anyone to judge God? He will come with divine retribution in the end time(Isaiah 35:4) With justice He judges and makes war.(Revelation 19:11)
    It has nothing to do with one dying for another. Jesus died for our sins once & for all. We are justified in Him. We will go up with Him for this faith & this obedience. The remaining will have to bear it out . Some will be saved then- but I'm thankful I don't have spiritual blindness or deafness up to that point.
    Living by faith, looking to Christ for all things-pardon, righteousness, peace joy, comfort, & the supply of every grace. By grace we are saved(salvation) not by works. What works we do after receiving Christ will be the Gentiles judgment-meaning how they will be honored in Heaven- not if we go to Heaven-but what kind of place & what we will be doing there will be reflected by our work or service for Christ.
    It would be interesting to compare the Eschatology of the 3 major religions if you care to.
  • Apr 22, 2007, 11:59 AM
    arcura
    fitnahpolice,
    The Holy Bible records that Jesus did admit to His divinity as did others.
    Your claim that Jesus did not is a false claim.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
  • Apr 22, 2007, 08:20 PM
    -radioactive-
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    :confused:
    Is Jesus Christ God?
    Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
    Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
    John said that Jesus created the world.
    Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
    Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
    "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
    And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
    And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
    Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
    Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
    Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
    Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
    Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
    Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
    For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
    "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
    Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

    Jesus Was 100% God, 100% Human
    He Neither Denied Nor Claimed That He Was God Himself
    So We Cannot Say He Claimed Himself God.
    But God, Jesus, And The Holy Spirit
    Are All God, Just In Different Forms.
  • Apr 22, 2007, 09:21 PM
    arcura
    Radioactive,
    When Jesus answered "I AM" he was saying he was God Yahweh "I AM"
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
  • Apr 22, 2007, 09:25 PM
    -radioactive-
    He said I AM not I AM GOD.
    So he didn't claim he was God axactly.
    He just claimed I AM
    If he said I AM GOD, or I AM YOUR LORD, BOW DOWN!
    Then I would believe it
    But he did say that the Lord God was his Father
  • Apr 23, 2007, 01:57 AM
    chaplain john
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    :confused:
    Is Jesus Christ God?
    Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
    Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
    John said that Jesus created the world.
    Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
    Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
    "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
    And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
    And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
    Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
    Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
    Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
    Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
    Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
    Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
    For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
    "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
    Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

    Brothers and sisters here I don't claim to be a highly educated man. In fact I am just an old retired truck driver (I usually term that Professional Road Dummy) Many years after I felt the call to preach Gods Good News I quit running and started to try to educate myself to do just exactly that, In the course of my attempt I learned a few things and what I consider one of the most important of them was that I would not always agree with the opinions and or beliefs of others. I personally have found this to be very helpful: Sometimes we must agree to disagree and turn together to do a work for Christ.

    I find quite a number of people here who are obviously are much better educated than I in the course of a discussion where there is not much probability of ever coming to common ground (I have come to that realization after reading a little less than half the posts on the thread I have learned much as I read and assume that I will learn more as I read the rest but I want to post this before I retire. Yes I'm Going off half-cocked.). My suggestion is that we ALL agree to disagree before we end up flaming one-another.

    One last thing and I will shut up I have lived in a university town for many years and my personal observation of those "Scholars, Researchers, Theologians and such is that the PhD following their names could easily stand for Permanent Head Damage. There is Theology and there is Knee-ology. Sometimes the knee-ology and inspiration of the Holy Spirit is more important when it comes to the winning of souls into the Kingdom of God and THAT is the important thing for Christians to do
  • Apr 23, 2007, 02:52 PM
    arcura
    chaplain john
    Thanks for you in put on that.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
  • Apr 23, 2007, 04:41 PM
    galveston
    Personally, I'm kind of glad that fitnapolice has weighed in on this. Right now, I'm waiting to hear why he thinks the words of one man, (Muhammed) is more reliable than the words of the many eye-witnesses who left us the account(s) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, if I understand him right, he believes that Jesus will come back to administer judgment. That would make Jesus Lord, wouldn't it? Why don't Muslims proclaim Jesus as Lord now? I certainly proclaim Jesus as Lord. Does that put us on the same page on this one point? I hope we can discuss all this, point by point, as I would like to know what he really believes.
  • Apr 23, 2007, 09:33 PM
    chaplain john
    [

    It is also interesting how you refer to Jesus as The Word.. which is correct he is called the Word but is entirely separate from God the Almighty.. however that is another subject and if you wish I will provide my insight on that as well :)[/quote]

    Here I go again jumping in to try and make a fool of myself but I can't help it.

    My logic suffers a lot these days but it seems to me that a Holy Being who is a Spiritual Being who is capable of speaking a Word which then becomes substance would be capable of manifesting himself in three different ways at the same time especially if he himself is not bound by space and time.

    Beautiful diva Chapter one of the Book of John starts like this: John 1:1-5
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. RSV

    Gen 1:1-3
    1:1 In the beginning God (God the Father I don't think anyone will debate that) (Oops sorry Darwinians)created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; (The Word... Jesus) and there was light. RSV
  • Apr 24, 2007, 09:39 AM
    arcura
    chaplain john.
    Keep in mind that with God ALL things are possible.
    God is not limited by space or time.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
  • Apr 24, 2007, 06:54 PM
    magprob
    Jesus was not GOD becoming man, he was man becoming GOD. That is the whole point of it. The Christ mind is the mind of GOD in us. The Greek "Logos," the word, as used here means Divine Mind in action, the divine archetypal idea of perfect man. The word Christ is a degree of potential stature that dwells in every man.
  • Apr 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
    chaplain john
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    chaplain john.
    Keep in mind that with God ALL things are possible.
    God is not limited by space or time.
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)

    Thank you arcura, that is one of the points I was trying to get across summed up in one sentence.
  • Apr 24, 2007, 08:26 PM
    arcura
    magprob,
    I disagree.
    I believe what the bible says about Jesus Christ being God the Son.
    Peace and kindness,:)
    Fred
  • Apr 27, 2007, 09:46 AM
    magprob
    He is the son of GOD as we all are. With the same possibilities as Jesus. I'm not arguing with that. If GOD wants to have an immaculate conception then I say he is quite capable to do so.
  • Apr 27, 2007, 09:11 PM
    arcura
    magprob,
    I agree. Whatever God wants He has the ability to accomplish it!!
    Peace and kindness,
    Fred (arcura)
  • May 3, 2007, 12:00 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Surely God has the ability to do as He wishes. But he never wishes for nor does he approve of blasphemy!

    God says in Chapter Mary of the Quran:

    88. And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allâh) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]."

    89. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

    90. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

    91. That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allâh).

    92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allâh) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children).

    93. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent (Allâh) as a slave.

    94. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.

    95. And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).

    96. Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allâh and in His Messenger] and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Beneficent (Allâh) will bestow love for them (in the hearts of the believers).
  • May 3, 2007, 03:15 PM
    Retrotia
    I agree fitnahpolice, God does not approve of blasphemy or heresy.

    Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God. Ezra was a prophet from the Old Testament.
    Response to Islamic Awareness: Was 'Uzayr (Ezra) Called The Son Of God?
  • May 3, 2007, 06:22 PM
    Jadire
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by arcura
    :confused:
    Is Jesus Christ God?
    Investigate these interesting claims... The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed pretty convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form.
    Paul said, "He is the image of the invisible God...in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell."
    John said that Jesus created the world.
    Peter said, "Every one who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." But what did Jesus say about himself?
    Did he ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible...absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth, in their context. Is Jesus God? How he implied he was God: The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59)
    "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
    And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)
    And so when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments, and reclined at the table again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet." (John 13:12-14)
    Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)
    Is Jesus God? How he described himself: Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
    Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
    Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
    Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
    Is Jesus God? What he said he was sent here to do: But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)
    For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, "The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later." But they did not understand this statement, and they were afraid to ask Him. (Mark 9:31-32)
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
    "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
    Do you believe what the bibles says about Jesus being God?:confused:

    Absolutely, unequivocally. There is a God.. Jesus and God are one and the same.
  • May 3, 2007, 08:47 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fitnahpolice
    Curious: So if Jesus was God, who did he pray to? Himself? If you say he prayed to the Father, this means all 3 components of the Trinity can be worshipped separately!

    Comments on this post
    Retrotia disagrees: Limited. He prayed to the Father. When we pray, all 3 are understood. Bc I have Christ in me, the Holy Spirit prays to the Lord Who is Spirit.


    Ok this is confusing. So Jesus worshipped, prayed and was subservient to God the Father. And the Christians of today pray to all 3? Why not do as Jesus did? Was he not the best of teachers and guides? So you're saying you have Christ in you; the Holy Spirit prays to the Lord who is the spirit himself. And you are worshipping Christ who is within yourself! Please help!
  • May 3, 2007, 08:52 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by shel3811
    Jesus is Lord.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Jadire
    Absolutely, unequivocally. There is a God..Jesus and God are one and the same.

    Jesus prayed TO God. He did not pray to himself. If we love Jesus, believe in his teachings and have faith in him, we must all do as he did - Worship the One God like Jesus did.
  • May 3, 2007, 09:27 PM
    fitnahpolice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by galveston
    Personally, I'm kinda glad that fitnapolice has weighed in on this. Right now, I'm waiting to hear why he thinks the words of one man, (Muhammed) is more reliable than the words of the many eye-witnesses who left us the account(s) of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Also, if I understand him right, he believes that Jesus will come back to administer judgment. That would make Jesus Lord, wouldn't it? Why don't Muslims proclaim Jesus as Lord now? I certainly proclaim Jesus as Lord. Does that put us on the same page on this one point? I hope we can discuss all this, point by point, as I would like to know what he really believes.

    Thank you Galveston for considering my viewpoints of having some weight! :)

    Firstly, the Holy Qur'an is the speech of God revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the Archangel Gabriel just as the Torah and the Bible were God's revelations to their respective Prophets. The Qur'an is NOT the words of the unlettered and illiterate Prophet Muhammad and Muhammad dare not add anything to it of his own.

    Allah says in Chapter 69:

    44. And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us (Allâh),

    45. We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might),

    46. And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta),

    47. And none of you could withhold Us from (punishing) him.

    Yes. Jesus (peace be upon him), the son of Mary, was taken up by God (he was neither killed nor crucified) and he will return before the end of time. He will kill the Dajjal (Anti-Christ) and establish peace on the earth as a just ruler judging by the prevailing law of the Quran and not the law of the Gospel. After a period of about 40 years he will pass away and then soon after the Hour (Day of Judgement) will be established.

    So Jesus' return and rule on this earth does not make him Lord. In fact he will still be a worshipper of God and will guide the people to the same - singling out Allah for worship without invoking any partners beside Him.

    Once the Day of Resurrection and Reckoning is established, Allah alone will be Lord, the King, the Judge - as He has always been and will always be.

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