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Sorry, I can't in good consciousness, put the words of ancient man as absolute truth. His prejudices are clear through his writings, and only through a personal relationship with the Creator, can we rise above this controversy, and know what the truth really is. Then we do not have to interpret, guess, or believe, what God wants you to do. You will know. Of course a gay person will know the love of a living God, and know what is expected of him, to be a good human.
OK, so I have read a lot of different opinions about this topic and I can only comment on what the bible says. I mention the bible because it's the only authority you can use to define or explain this topic. I would like to mention you can have an opinion freely but the only authority you can refer to about god (in reference to Christianity)is the bible.
Countless times in the bible from Leviticus, Corinthians, Timothy, Romans, does the bible mention sins of the flesh as they refer to Homosexuality. Each time this is mentioned as a sin pure and simple.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality
It doesn't say hate gays, it doesn't say hate yourself for having those feelings, it doesn't say, it doesn't say.. ect... ect.. If you are a Christian your bible is your resource for such questions. If you are a Christian you know that there is one way to the father. That is through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as your lord and savior. If you have Christ then your life will be changed and you will see that change evident in all that you do. If you truly wanted to know the answer of this question then the resource you have available to you is the bible. It's the only tool at your disposal regarding the topic of salvation.
I think part of the problem lies in the many translations and interpretations of that piece of scripture; we have seen many in this threads from different posters.
If you would like, when I get home I will post you the Greek and Hebrew translations. If you are pulling from most bibles the translations are actually pretty solid.(exceptions always)
No thank you. I have no problems with gay people.
Ok this is kind of low NK.. I also have no problem with gay people. Just stating the facts. Does that mean that Christians hate gays? No.. and that is a very bad misrepresentation of what was said. People, ALL PEOPLE are sinners... Don't paint this topic as a "Christians hate gays". The questions was valid and the valid resource on the topic is the bible. Bottom line.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
By the way, Christians, myself, and anyone I know don't hate a person for being gay. On the contrary, I pray for everyone's salvation. Even yours.
I was speaking for myself, not all christians. You made quite a leap there.
You'll notice that some posters in this thread do indeed find homosexuals repulsive.
Oh, I require no salvation but thank you.
Well, then I will be the first to apologize if my statements took it beyond your implication. I have noticed that some of the posters do indeed find homosexuals repulsive and I only hope people don't take those twisted views as a representation of what a Christian is.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Hating someone for being a sinner is futile. We all are sinners. Embrace those who are looking for answers no matter who they are. Give them the truth and let them decide. That is all I can do.
Why can't any one admit that a gay person, has the same chance at this so called salvation, as any other person, no matter the sin. All this tip toeing, and dancing around, serves no purpose, but to expose personal shortcoming which, have nothing to do with the subject, but it does show that as many people who read a particular bible, can come back with as many translations, or interpretations. We humans are flawed, and the things we say, and do, and write, are flawed also. Not just Christians, but all the other religions, that seek to guide man, fall to the same scrutiny.
Curious, what makes the bible authoritative?
Now, now Chucky you can't just go and change tactics on us like that. You have been telling us what God says and what he means, what he wants and what he is going to do for some time now. Now you want to include the whole bible? If we do that things will get uncomfortable. I mean really, what you are suggesting makes a lot of sense here, provide a context in which to interpret the text right? Well that’s just silliness, but I will try.
Considering that you are in a themeatic mood, how about we use “Jesus and Open Table Fellowship” as a theme? Throughout all of the gospels you can read how Jesus ate with sinners while the Pharisees sat back and pointed to their sins of the people. Jesus ate with everybody, he was unconditional in his acceptance of people regardless of their sin, the writers of the gospels make this very clear. Never in these situations do you hear from the apostles nor Jesus, that his acceptance is based on the recognition of sin, and Jesus lordship. In fact the apostles seem a little lost for words when they are confronted by the Pharisees. Sometimes they even have to get clarification on what Jesus was doing, which means not even they understood him sometimes. The reason It was confusing was because Jesus was not concerned with sin, the same way that religious people of his time was.
Let’s not stop there lets use the theme of his “Teachings”. Pound for pound, word for word, the teachings of Jesus center around what the kingdom of heaven is like and instruction on how we are to treat with one another in order to achieve salvation which seems to be this the kingdom of Heaven, he does not focus on sin, unless it was for the forgiveness of sins, now Jesus was really big on forgiving people their sins, and once again it was not contingent on their acceptance of him.
I will never understand why religious people like yourself make this so difficult, because Jesus certainly doesn’t.
To love God and to love others is… to accept Christ, let me put it another way. To love one another is to love God and accept Christ, or yet again, to love Christ is to love one another in God. It is that simple. There is no special ritual; there is no need for declaration or special ceremony. There is no right doctrine or right faith, there is no need for special knowledge or study of the bible (not that it hurts to study it). One does not have to believe that Jesus died for their sins, or that he was born of a virgin, or rose from the dead. All they have to do is make the connection between themselves, God, and the teachings of Jesus.
Repentance isn’t the act of acknowledging sin (the bad things one does i.e. having sex with same gender, promiscuity, stealing etc…). People know when they are doing something wrong. The act of repentance is turning from a life dictated by a fallen world and embracing life as God intended, namely in relationship with one another (hence all those pesky, love one another sayings Jesus was so fond of repeating).
Salvation doesn’t occur when they stop these sinning…regardless of their motivations (including Christ). Repentance is demonstrated relationally. Repentance is achieved when an individual makes the realization that God wants his creation to live justly, being merciful toward each other as God intended and lives their lives in such a manner. Sadly this is counterintuitive to most orthodoxy.
Consider some of the few times Jesus say’s a person is saved:
Zacchaeus received salvation, according to Jesus upon repentance for how he treated his fellow man and his attempts at reconciling with them. Notice there was no mention of accepting his death on the cross for the remission of sins (an important point to exclude were you a NT writer.)
Then there is the sinful woman who anoints Jesus at the house of the Pharisee. She is saved by her loving action toward him, there is no requisite. Hoever, one has to wonder how Jesus had impacted her. He certainly didn’t accept her upon the condition of her repentance of sin, as that never occurred, in fact that was the Pharisees teaching repentance of sin and becoming pure. If you pay attention closely it was the acknowledgment of her sinfulness fthat the Pharisees wanted from Jesus and he didn't. Jesus accepts despite the sin and the writer makes this abundantly clear.
As for the “entire theme” of the NT, if there is one, it is certainly NOT the acceptance of Christ. Were I to try to sum it up I would say it was RECONCILIATION more specifically, reconciliation with God, and likewise, our fellow man. You may see this as a semantic issue, I do not. Sin, repentance, acceptance of Christ are all sub themes but they are not the main issues, they are tools in which to craft reconciliation.
As for accepting Christ as a theme... it is one nstructs the religious. Being religious themselves, the apostles are going to tell us to do it the way they did it, or at least the way they understood Jesus which we know is flawed seeing as they bailed at his arrest and crucifixion. Much of the text (especially the NT) is written as treatise of what it means to be a Christian. They are pulling away from their traditions. That is to suggest that it was written as an explanation, a declaration of religious independence if you will. In many ways these things do not apply to the average reader as the tradition has been established.
As for sin, not only is it not clearly defined, but it is ambiguous. The religious shouldn’t tell people what they are going to be judged for. They shouldn’t tell people what is sinful and what is not as a rule of thumb, after all there’s many a slip between the cup and the lip. Don’t get me wrong, I think we can all agree with the big top 10, Thou Shalt nots... Just as we can certainly agree with Jesus’ teaching that all of the Law and prophets can be summed up in loving God and ones neighbors. The religious have not changed much if you ask me. When given a chance to tell people the message of Jesus, they like to point to the sin, just like the Pharisees.
For what its worth,
Scotty
Your point here is valid but I believe to be a little off. Jesus was very much concerned with sin. Not to point out sin like "hey you sinner you suck", but to educate that people under the law. You could not live up to the laws expectations. This was, like I believe you allude to later in not so many words, a religious revolution of sorts. What you need to understand is that Jesus came to pay the price for our sin. The same sin that everyone in that time was concerned about was the purpose of that sacrifice.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
Again you are on the right track. Jesus spoke a lot about the kingdom of heaven. But he also gives us very specific direction on how to get into heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
If you would like more quotes I can provide.
A perfect example of why we strive to be as Christlike as possible. Do we fail? Everyday..Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
I do not agree, based on what the bible says. We can disagree and that is OK. But if Jesus didn't die for our sins then that means we are still under the law. If we are under the law then none of us are going to heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
Here is the flaw here.. You suggest that people should continue to do the same bad things (sin)and then turn around and say they are Christlike? If I argued this you would point and say "oh the hypocrisy". Countless times the bible outlines sin. Can it be forgiven? Oh you bet. You should forgive sin again and again. You see, its not about absolutism. We are all sinners. It is about striving to be Christlike. Christ was without sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
Only one way to salvation-Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
What does that mean though? Well, Jesus taught forgiveness, he also taught they we had to be shepherds of men. Guide them to the truth, but at the very least let them know. etc.. ect.. I won't beat up the point because you're a smart guy and I think you get it.
according to Jesus? Are you sure about that one? The "Lord" was not Jesus in that sense. But that is another debate that I am sure you will be coming to shortly. Old testament "lord"Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyv
spoke directly to whom ever he wanted. He granted salvation. Still this was all under the "law". Jesus sacrificed himself so that you do no have to live under the law. Well I already said that didn't I.
I would continue to post on each paragraph but the points are starting to run together. I think you get it so far.
Lead by example comes to mind.Quote:
Guide them to the truth, but at the very least let them know.
scottyv : Curious, what makes the bible authoritative?
I believe the bible to have arisen from authority, the bible has influence, the bible is excepted by most authorities in the field, should I go on?
Here is my opinion, just like you should have one. The bible is a book, a great one, but still a book. God did not write it, people wrote it for him. So even back then one may have misinterpreted it. Also, god gave me free choice and a mind of my own. And I know what's right and wrong, would god truly send people to hell for being gay? NO. The bible also says do not eat anything that walks on this earth, and such. People whine about how bad being gay is when they themselves are hypocrites. No where in the bible does it say that being gay is worse than being a cold bloooded killer or any other sin. Here are some sins you have broken.
GE 3:16, CO 11:3-9, EP 5:22-24, CN 3:18, TS 2:5, 1PE 3:1-6 The husband is to rule over his wife. Wives are to be subject to their husbands even when the husband is disobedient to God. Man is the image and glory of God, while woman is the glory of man. Man was not created for woman but woman for man.
GE 17:14 A child is to be punished when his parents neglect to have him circumcised.
EX 21:17, LE 20:9, DT 21:18-21 A child who curses his parent(s) is to be put to death. A stubborn and/or rebellious child is to be put to death.
EX 22:29 Firstborn children should be sacrificed to the Lord.
LE 11:7, DT 14:8 Eating pork is prohibited.
LE 11:10 Eating shellfish is prohibited.
LE 19:27 The edges of a beard should not be clipped.
LE 19:28 Tattoos and the like are prohibited.
LE 20:18 If a man has sex relations with a woman who is menstruating, both shall be excommunicated from their people.
LE 21:17-23 A priest (or descendant of Aaron) with crushed testicles (or almost any other physical deformity) is not to be allowed near the sanctuary.
DT 13:6-10 A man is required to slay his friends and members of his own family who are guilty of worshipping another god.
DT 22:28-29 A virgin who is raped must marry her rapist (if they are "found").
DT 25:5-10 A man has an obligation to produce a child for his widowed sister-in-law.
Need I go on? The bible has so many outdated things, that if we had to follow them all, we would all be hell right now. There are so many more of these dumb things. That is why I follow my heart and, to me god is a cool person, he is a loving person, a person who understands me. And being gay is just another sin. Oh yeah don't call your father "father" because that's a sin...
MT 23:9 Do not call any man on earth "father."
OH YEAH YOU BETTER BE PERFECT!
MT 5:48 Be perfect.
MT 6:6 Pray in private.
I believe in god, and I'm a catholic. Gays don't go to hell unless its for their criminal actions. In the older days, being black was considered a sin. All things pass. Once the old people of today die, this problem will be resolved and a new one will arise. It's the cycle of religion.
OH YEAH HAPPY "VOW FOR SILENCE DAY!" A national day that many students participate in if they want to, for all ages, where they do not speak for a whole day reminding those that killing a homosexual is wrong. Whether you agree with gay's, I hope you agree that killing is wrong. You don't have to be gay to have taken part of it, just support it. Everyone who wanted to could have gotten a cool card that is well written and explains what you are doing. Here is some more info, DAY of SILENCE: News. I did it and you get some pretty cool responses. It was started because a 8th grader was killed by a classmate for being gay. It amazed me however, that some of my fellow catholic classmates refused to particapate in fighting bulling and killing in schools because the child is gay.
[QUOTE=sGt HarDKorE]here is my opinion, just like you should have one. The bible is a book, a great one, but still a book. God did not write it, people wrote it for him. So even back then one may have misinterpreted it. Also, god gave me free choice and a mind of my own. And I know what's right and wrong, would god truly send people to hell for being gay? NO. The bible also says do not eat anything that walks on this earth, and such. People whine about how bad being gay is when they themselves are hypocrites. No where in the bible does it say that being gay is worse than being a cold blooded killer or any other sin. Here are some sins you have broken.
EX 22:29 Firstborn children should be sacrificed to the Lord.
LE 11:7, DT 14:8 Eating pork is prohibited.
LE 11:10 Eating shellfish is prohibited.
LE 19:27 The edges of a beard should not be clipped.
LE 19:28 Tattoos and the like are prohibited.
LE 20:18 If a man has sex relations with a woman who is menstruating, both shall be excommunicated from their people.
I cut out the part of your post I am not addressing but did not change the above in any way.
Some people still do respect these tenants of faith concerning pork, shellfish, beards, tattoos and menstruating women - although the parties are no longer excommunicated, just shunned (in theory). The "firstborn children" refers to the firstborn becoming a member of the clergy, not literally putting them to death in a sacrificial way. Old way for Irish Catholics was for the first born to become a Priest; same in Jewish families, first born "destined" to be a Rabbi.
Please do not assume everyone is Christian; please do not assume "Here are some sins you have broken." No problem if you speak for yourself but please do not speak for others.
Strange how Christians are all about loving one another until they sin huh?
Of course not that you really care and will have some opinon of, many of the rules, esp those of eating were changed latter in the bible.
Also one has to not confuse the laws of the Hewbrew nation needed to control their society with every rule that God set forth. But one that knows the bible that well knows it anyone but would prefer to ignore those issues
As a non Christian, I am glad not to be in a position of worrying about salvation, because as a human, it's a handful to just live this life, as best a human can, and enjoy the choice that has been granted all humans. Not just Christianity, I would surely have the same problem being led as a sheep, through any artificial trappings man calls religion. Though we can all stand to learn and improve, we have to pick our way through this life and be accountable for our own actions as saying that's what god said, is no excuse for bad human behavior and I hope the OP, realizes that when he exercises his own choices, in this human world.
You have it completely backward, as a Christian I don't have to worry about salvation, because I am saved. It is those who are not saved that have all the worry. And to live life as a sheep moving with no goal, purpose or thought of more to come. But yes this is a human world, and the christian is merely a vistor here passing though to get to their home in the world and life to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Pope benedict also clearly states that you don't have to believe in god to go to heaven. Just do good deeds
"Whoever seeks peace and the good of the community with a pure conscience, and keeps alive the desire for the transcendent, will be saved even if he lacks biblical faith," says Benedict XVI.
Then he is not teaching bibical truths, and in fact not even teaching catholic teachings, but as a man he can say things that are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by sGt HarDKorE
** assuming you do have the quote in context
Here is my proof, ZENIT - Commentary on Psalm 136(137). And not saying your wrong in any way, and I'm not saying I'm right, I just want to argue the other side. And although you say he is teaching wrong, I'm sorry but he's the next best thing compared to god. And if he says its OK, I'm going with him.
Quote from link "He sees their service and will show them the other city, toward which they must really long and orient all their effort" ("
So if they do live this good live, God will show them the right city (jersulem) an they must long and oreint their effort, is also a requirement, it sounds like God will see the person doing good and have the truth of God shown to them and give them the chance to turn to him
But no I do not give 10 cents to any mans commits if they go against the dirct word of jesus in the bible. If this was his intent that non christians would be saved, he also did not make this as a infallible statement as Pope and to be honest it sounds more politicaly made than religiously made. Even the Pope has to answer to God, and he as all ministers are held to a higher standard not to teach wrongly.
You have it completely backward, as a Christian I don't have to worry about salvation, because I am saved.
Then neither us is worried.
It is those who are not saved that have all the worry.
It depends on what it is your worried about, I'm busy here and will see what happens on the next level, or not. That not my WORRY!
And to live life as a sheep moving with no goal, purpose or thought of more to come. But yes this is a human world,
My business is here, and now. That is my purpose.
And the Christian is merely a visitor here passing though to get to their home in the world and life to come.
Hope you get home. (But this is the last time I correct your spelling)
You are really correcting your own spelling you know, we got reported by a user that we are the same person.
That must be one split person??
I can't hardly see the screen, and the hunt and peck, spelling is the last of my worries ( not a listed sin in the bible *LOL)
I guess we can have a time out to share a good laugh, LOL!Quote:
I can't hardly see the screen, and the hunt and peck, spelling is the last of my worries ( not a listed sin in the bible *LOL)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sGt HarDKorE
I found explaining Catholic beliefs and the Pope was very, very difficult during his visit here. Explaining Saints and statutes and rosary beads is hard enough. I don't think he's the next best thing to God - is that Catholic teaching?
So what was with his red hat and matching shoes?
By all means go on... at least until you actually come up with an answer worthy of consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoked
You "believe" the bible to have arisen from authority? You know Hitler "believed" the Jews were responsible for the downfall of Germany. Hitler also arose from authority.
The bible has influence? Hitler had influence.
The bible is accepted by most authorities in the field? Hitler was accepted by practically every authority including the church.
Ergo the bible and Hitler are authoritative.
See what I mean about problematic? Just because something is authoritative doesn't make it good for humanity. Let me know if you come up with something worth considering.
Peace,
Scotty
I thought red was in this season,
But actually remember Saints and icons and statues and prayer beads is not a just a Catholic thing, in fact it is more Christian over all than not. Since the majority of Christians over all believe and practice them.
The Anglican churches, Orthodox Churches, Catholic Churches all use them in one form or another, and several other denominations such as Lutheran had saits in their basic teachings.
Not all to the same levels but they do all have them.
So in fact it is not merely catholic but those beleifs include the Catholic,and Orthodox and some protestant churches. The catholic just gets more press on it.
As to the "red" Papal shoes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
All Bishops, most monks and some priests all wear the similar head covering ( I wear one myself) the color shows the rank or position
Come on Tali, that makes too much sense, you are going to confuse people! :]
And that is just the beginning!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I understand the hat - it was the shoes that I couldn't figure out.
And you are right - red is in fashion this season.
Smoked,
Ummm... lets not go off the deep end here Smoked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoked
NeedKarma wrote: "No thank you, I have no problem with gay people."
That is a far cry from Christians hating gays, those were your words not NK's.
Christians hating gays is not a bad misrepresentation it is a fact!
I don't know anyone who hates people that are gay either but I wouldn't hang with people that did. Yet I have a television, a radio and a computer and have seen with my own eyes religious hatred. Whether it be so called Christians holding signs stating that God hates Gays. Religious people who have attacked the rights of people based on sexual preference, Clinic bombings, political alienation, I could go on... Whether you like it or not that is part of your tradition, and you come off like you are defending that tradition.
You don't hate a person for being gay, but you find it perfectly acceptable to presume we are all sinners because a book written over 2000 years age says that we are.
Hmmmn, sounds reasonable.
But really no, Christians don't hate a single gay person ( not even a married bay person ** joke) This is normally the cry of the gay people when they do not like the teachings of Christianity, Jewish faith and that of the Quran, They want to cry discrimination or hate when it is far from the truth. Most may feel sorry for them, they may get a sickening feeling over their sexual activities. But they would pray for them and for their conversions and for them to turn from their sin.
They normally feel the same way for those in all sexual sins, adultry, those shacking up and more.
So no christians do not hate gay, the majority of that comes from the gays who wish to push their view points on christianity and force some acceptance of their beleifs on society.
Really? I mean really? That is their human right you know. To disagree with a teaching that conflicts with their human intuition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
You don't think it is discriminatory that the religious have told people how they have to live in order to be accepted by God and have created institutions and polity that infringe on human rights as a problem worth crying over?
\**** edited*****
The Muslims just surpassed you as the largest religious affiliation just 7 years after millitant Muslims attacked the US what does that tell you?
Y'all got some work to do,
Scotty
It tells me that they have a better recruitment, first if you don't believe you can be killed, if you try to convert you will be killed, So yes, I guess Christians could do a recruitment like that but personal choice is really better.
And sorry if someone does not want to live a moral christian life, they have a choice not to. And sorry pervert sexual acts is not a human right, it is merely a strange sexual act that needed to stay illegal, but it is not a "right" by any meaning of that word.
So is it your personal or your religious position that homosexuality is a perverted sexual act?
I know gay Catholic priests that would disagree with your views.
If you think that people do not have the human right to seek relationship in the manner in which their humanity and intuition lead them as a human right I would suggest you re-think your concept, it is one of the base foundations.
Gee I have no idea why people are getting upset with religion.
~S.
No it is societies belief, and it is a christian belief. Gay priests should not be priests unless they take their vows and do not have sex.
Well done scottyv.
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