You are being evasive. You are describing pure free will, but you know that is not the question. So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You are being evasive. You are describing pure free will, but you know that is not the question. So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true.

---

Evasive? Any one of us can make the choice to do a bad thing or make the choice to do a good thing. Each of us has done bad things AND good things today.

So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true.

---

We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, temptations to do wrong things. We have the inclination, a choice, free will, to do a sin, a bad thing. Or we can do good.

I just realized. You don't like the word "bound". You think if sin binds us, we are powerless to do good actions. How about: our free will allows us to do good things but too often is restricted by sin so that we also do bad things.

You are still trying to have your cake and eat it, too. After starting with, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, " you then continue with, "temptations to do wrong things. We have the inclination, a choice, free will, to do a sin, a bad thing. Or we can do good." To be "bound" and "subject to" is not the same as merely being tempted or having an inclination.

Even worse is to suggest that being "restricted by sin" causes us to, "also do bad things." So you finally reach a conclusion that we do not, in fact, really have free will since, being restricted by sin, we therefore do bad things. Very interesting!!

You earlier stated, "You (JL) are thinking of sin as the condition. I am writing about it as an act." But now you say, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin." You need to make your mind up.

Quote:

---

You think if sin binds us, we are powerless to do good actions.

---

I have suggested no such thing. These are your utterly contradictory ideas we are discussing.

Do you do bad things each day?

Do you do good things each day?

Yes and yes.

Now are you able to explain your plainly contradictory ideas? Evidently, no. This has become tiresome. If you can offer up an explanation, then we can discuss it. Until then, you are left with the utterly nonsensical position of trying to say people are bound by and subject to sin, and yet those same people have free will. I suspect you are trying to land somewhere in the middle, saying that we exercise free will when we can, from time to time, break free from our bondage to sin, your position thus being one of "occasional (transitory) free will".

1. You have the free will to always do good things. Why don't you do good things all the time?

2. You have the free will to always do bad things. Why don't you do bad things all the time?

You cannot defend your nonsensical position by asking questions. Put your mind to work. Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will.

Quote:

---

You have the free will to always do good things.

---

So you say. That's what I'm asking you to defend. You plainly cannot do so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You cannot defend your nonsensical position by asking questions. Put your mind to work. Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will.

---

Thus, your comment says you are not free to do good. Everything you do is negative at one level or another. You have no choice (free will) in the matter.

Quote:

---

So you say. That's what I'm asking you to defend. You plainly cannot do so.

---

In Christ, you do have the freedom (free will) to always do good things. So why don't you?

Quote:

---

Thus, your comment says you are not free to do good. Everything you do is negative at one level or another. You have no choice (free will) in the matter.

---

Wonderful post except, sadly, it is untrue. I have said nothing about not being free. My statement ( Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will.) was based upon a comment by YOU. A little honesty would be helpful here.

Quote:

---

In Christ, you do have the freedom (free will) to always do good things .

---

We have discussed this previously. The key in your statement is to be "in Christ". However, you have said that mankind in general has free will and yet is also bound by/subject to sin. That is the statement I wish you would defend.

What's your definition of free will?

What's your explanation of your contradictory views? Asking an abundance of questions just comes across as a diversion on your part. Why are so afraid to attempt an answer???

What are my contradictory views? I don't see any.

That could very well be true, sad to say, but I'll post it again for the 412th time. Keep hope alive!!

"However, you have said that mankind in general has free will and yet is also bound by/subject to sin. That is the statement I wish you would defend."

Also here. "So again, how can mankind be bound/subject to sin and yet have free will? For one to be true, the other cannot be true."

Here as well. "Explain how a person bound to and subject to sin can, in any sense, have genuine free will."

And again. "Until then, you are left with the utterly nonsensical position of trying to say people are bound by and subject to sin, and yet those same people have free will. I suspect you are trying to land somewhere in the middle, saying that we exercise free will when we can, from time to time, break free from our bondage to sin, your position thus being one of 'occasional (transitory) free will.'"

So those four were on this page alone. Still, I'm sure you just overlooked them...somehow...or other...you know.

God created Adam and Eve, then gave them free will. He asked them not to do one simple thing. They decided to do that forbidden thing and thus they disobeyed God. Sin entered the world.

Are we on the same page so far?

Yes, a page that you have posted several times. Hopefully, an explanation of your seemingly contradictory position, thus far unposted, will soon follow. Keep hope alive!!

I started this with a question about a Bible passage. It's turned into word games.

Quote:

---

You are still trying to have your cake and eat it, too. After starting with, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin; we are subject to sinful actions, " you then continue with, "temptations to do wrong things. We have the inclination, a choice, free will, to do a sin, a bad thing. Or we can do good." To be "bound" and "subject to" is not the same as merely being tempted or having an inclination.

Even worse is to suggest that being "restricted by sin" causes us to, "also do bad things." So you finally reach a conclusion that we do not, in fact, really have free will since, being restricted by sin, we therefore do bad things. Very interesting!!

You earlier stated, "You (JL) are thinking of sin as the condition. I am writing about it as an act." But now you say, "We are all bound by sin, the condition called sin." You need to make your mind up.

You think if sin binds us, we are powerless to do good actions.
I have suggested no such thing. These are your utterly contradictory ideas we are discussing.

---

I suppose a person could look at it like that. If you would prefer, I'll drop it. Still not too sure how to piece together free will with the idea that we are subject to sin, and there is plainly going to be no answer to that, but it has gone on too long. I'd agree with that.

Your self-identity is an illusion, who or what you identity as is just a concept created by your thoughts. The you that you think you currently are (your deepest sense of I am) are just thoughts that pop in and out of existence from nothingness, and you have no control over them.

Don’t believe me? Try this right now, sit down with your eyes close and see if you can stop your thoughts (good luck).

Did you notice that all you have are thoughts? Thoughts on top of thoughts on top of thoughts, and there is no you that is doing the thoughts, the thoughts are doing you! The you that you think you really are is called the ego, your entire identity is the ego. So once you realize that you as perceiver is an illusion than you realize that there is no you that there is no free will. How can there be free will if there is no you in control? Romans 7: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing” (verse 19). In short, Paul was saying, I do what I don’t want to do (thoughts are doing you)!

Romans 7: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing” (verse 19). In short, Paul was saying, I do what I don’t want to do (thoughts are doing you)!


The Fall occurred because man used his free will to listen to Satan. No longer having free will (as we know it). How can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? We have become sin aka darkness. It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free.

We will always be Darkness (we will always be sinners). God does not make us light. Jesus (is that light) gives us light...Light overcomes our darkness. It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person.

Your idea of free will - Without the opportunity to sin, there is no opportunity to choose for God by choosing against something else? Would this explain the tree of good and Evil that was in the garden??


@Wondergirl; You act as if "Oh I'm just so full of love, I think I'll go produce some fruit!"
Instead, maybe we should be thinking - why it is we don't love God (not as we should love him)?