What about Hebrews 11?
I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing. But then we humans like to make things more complicated than they really are.
|
What about Hebrews 11?
I'd never heard of dispensationalism and the rapture until I saw them mentioned on this site years ago. Seems like a lot of to-do about nothing. But then we humans like to make things more complicated than they really are.
I see a whole lot of theological rambling with nothing from the Bible to back it up. That sums up dispensationalism in a nutshell, all right.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
So we nitpick the verses we may want. Do we disregard the ones that don't make sense. The bible is full of inane things. "make sure you put your daughter in a room without windows or so she can't see the front door". Sirach, I believe. Beating your slaves, stoning an adulterous woman, having your disobedient children killed. One verse says "sins of the father" another says, no sins of the father to the children". Paul says we were all formed from the dirt of the earth-didn't he read about Adams rib? The bible was never designed for justification, otherwise we would all have sinned 700 different ways according to Leviticus unless you may be a very devout Orthodox Jew. Then people say, well "that's just the OT-and the commandments are?
The past is past, the future is unknown even to Jesus, do the best you can today.
How many times have people predicted "The end is near"? Paul did, 2,000 years ago.
Last year we had the Mayan calendar worry, OOPS still around. Do unto others.
LOL yeah that's what you say, when you got nuttin. It's truth. Try to rightly divide the truth... you may wise up!Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
WG
What do you mean what about Hebrews 11? I don't get it... it's the faith chapter not sure what your question is...
And I had never heard that people actually didn't believe in dispensations. Wow! I don't know how you get around it. It's right there in black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
A day with God is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years as one day. Our time in not God's time but he doesn't want us to be ignorant. Jesus may have said only God knows the day and hour but he also said we could know if we were NEAR the time... just sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by ma0641
Speaking of having nuttin, you stole that line from me. I've used it many times in discussions with you. I'm glad to see you're finally learning SOMETHING from me, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
And you thoroughly missed my point (as usual). Your little treatise had NOT ONE SINGLE BIBLE VERSE IN IT. So there was no "word" there to divide, which was exactly my point.
You seriously don't get what that chapter has to do with your little theological mishmash? Unbelievable. I'll leave that one for WG to explain.Quote:
WG
What do you mean what about Hebrews 11? I don't get it... it's the faith chapter not sure what your question is...
Okay, show me the word "dispensation" there in black and white. It's not there until some self-important theologian crams it in there. Get real.Quote:
And I had never heard that people actually didn't believe in dispensations. Wow! I don't know how you get around it. It's right there in black and white.
Nice going! You just shot yourself in the foot. Yes, He said we could know if it was NEAR. But "NEAR" could be several thousand years from now because a day with God is like 1000 years. Hello? McFly? Might be a good idea to start listening to yourself once in a while ;)Quote:
A day with God is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years as one day. Our time in not God's time but he doesn't want us to be ignorant. Jesus may have said only God knows the day and hour but he also said we could know if we were NEAR the time... just saying
Dave, Dave, Dave,
Am I rookie? Really? You want scripture : 2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them and be established in THE PRESENT TRUTH! Hmmm? There were past truths that are no longer applicable. We are under grace, that is now the present truth!
I clearly said that everyone gets to heaven the same way... FAITH! So I really don't get why she put Hebrews 11 out there. So yes, it needs to be explained.
Ha ha ha... I liked the McFly jab. I actually use that a LOT! Sigh... well when you are so messed up that you can't even see the times... the fig tree, Israel becomes a nation in a day and THIS generations seeing the son of man coming... I can't help you out. We can KNOW it's near even at the door but when you can't read the times and the seasons and you want to be a scoffer, Hello? McFly is anything IN THERE?
Yes, I forgot, you learned a new cliché. That phrase doesn't even remotely mean what you think it does. It has nothing to do with dispensations or any of that other phony theology. The NIV puts it much more accurately:Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have.
Nothing in that chapter even remotely hints at any kind of "present" or "past" truth. In context, he's saying you'll do well to stick with what you have now, and when I get there I'll give you more.
Read the rest of the chapter and find out what's really going on, McFly ;)
But this is how dispensationalism works: grab a word or phrase here and another one there and put it together into a chimera that never actually existed. You are making my point for me.
And by the way, I don't know if you're a rookie or not, but you sure theology like one! :P
Like Hebrews 11 (NIV) says:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
39 These [aforementioned ancients] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Precisely. That chapter says all of the people in the BC world were reconciled to God, saved if you will, by FAITH, just like we are. No difference. No two ways of salvation. This chapter makes it as clear as it can be, and when you presented it, the response was "I don't get it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Ok how many ways can I say this... I already said everyone was saved the same way!! That's why I didn't get WG post... don't make me come through this computer and smack you sideways. EVERYONE comes by Faith and by the Blood of JESUS CHRIST. The blood of bulls and goats were only a type, it only covered their sin because the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world. I said it already. It is FAITH! So her post was not necessary and confusing to me. And yes I didn't get her post because I already said sit. :P :P ugh errrr and grrrrf and yowsie you are frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
But the "ancients" didn't KNOW exactly what God was going to do and how He was going to do it. They simply had faith He would follow through. You had said each person had "a truth."Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
No, there was only one truth, and they trusted God to follow through on that truth.Quote:
John the Baptize present truth is NOT the same as Paul's "present truth", which is NOT the same as Moses' "present truth", which of course is NOT the same as Abraham's "present truth", and last but not least it is NOT the same as Adam's "present truth".
WG,
Disagree. The present truth in the garden of Eden was don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... they did! Their answer is the same as my answer : Jesus! ( Genesis 3:15) When Moses gave the big 10 that was the present truth for about 1500 years. The Lord visited their sins, there was generational curses, they lived UNDER THE LAW. They had to offer animal sacrifices, They couldn't eat pork, they couldn't touch the dead... etc. etc... The Holy Spirit did not indwell them, he came upon them. That is NOT my truth. My truth is Grace. Once I accepted Jesus as my savior, I was made righteous, my sins are no longer imputed to me, the Holy Spirit indwells me... different truths for different dispensations. But let me be CLEAR Jesus was always the answer.
By Jesus Christ, I no longer live with generational curses.
I tried to edit the last line shouldn't be there, it belonged up a couple sentences but I couldn't edit it.. sorry.
Oh for goodness sake, why can't you religious people just believe what you believe without trying to force others to believe the same thing?
Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit, and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree. Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?
This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.
I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?
And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.
It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.
Good Luck.
THIS THING IS BEING WEIRD! IT PUT TWO DIFFERENT POSTS TOGETHER INTO ONE AND I CAN'T GET IT TO STOP! AND BESIDES, I'VE FALLEN AND I CAN'T GET UP - wait, that was something else...
You said there are two different ways of salvation. You said we're presently under grace, but all the ages around it are under something different. If this doesn't illustrate that you have no idea WHAT you're saying, I don't know what will. Because you are going in circles, saying one thing then saying another then saying I didn't say that but you did. You said John and after the rapture and all those people are under a different system than grace, but now you say they're not. Make up your mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
For me, it's partly intellectual exercise, and partly it's just fun to tie ClassyT in knots using her own words!
For me, it's partly intellectual exercise, and partly it's just fun to tie ClassyT in knots using her own words!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
Why do people argue politics? I argue with Dwashbur and WG because it's fun. I never knew people believed some of the things they believe. I thought all Christians believed in different dispensations. I am much more informed when I discuss Christianity with others because I now understand why people believe and interpret the bible they way they do. Believe it or not, I am much more enlightened. I'm not insecure in my beliefs and I do not doubt mine either. I don't recall begging anyone but I did ask people to site scripture because I like to see where they got their beliefs. This is MY interest, it is MY passion and I like to discuss it. I don't get your issue? I don't consider this thread a failure in any way, sorry you do. If you want to let me have it over anything, it should be that the post would have been better put in the discussion board. So for that I do apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
Dave,
Please show me the post where I EVER said there was two ways of salvation! I never said that. NEVER EVER. You know this and you are just having fun. I said there was only ONE way anyone gets to the Father and that was by faith and through Jesus Christ. What I said was there were TWO gospels. The gospel of Grace, which is what Paul preached and the gospel of the Kingdom which is what John the Baptized preached. I'm not looking for the second coming... did you know that? I'm looking for Jesus to come back in the clouds not on earth. I'm looking for the rapture my blessed hope! After the rapture takes place, the good news will be, Repent, Jesus Christ is coming to rule and reign.. the exact thing John the Baptized preached. John the baptized did not preach death, burial, resurrection, Jesus is the last Adam, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise after you believe, Faith plus NOTHING, the finished work of Christ. He didn't because he didn't know a thing about it. ALL He knew was Jesus Christ was ushering in the Kingdom, so repent and believe. That is what is going to be a preached again!
No one is forcing anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alty
We have to agree?Quote:
Live and let live already! No way you're all ever going to agree
No one is getting an ulcer.Quote:
so just let it go, don't give yourself an ulcer and just go on living your life the way you see fit
We do.Quote:
and believe what you want to believe even if others disagree.
Huh? You've never played chess? Been in a debate? Your world is black and white with no shades of gray?Quote:
Why do you feel the need to have others verify and solidify what you believe unless you yourself have doubts?
Yeah, we know that. That's why we're here discussing stuff. And learning from each other.Quote:
This thread was going to fail from minute one. Back up your beliefs with scripture? Um..that's like asking a magician to back up his trick with actual magic. Actually, the magician would have a better chance backing it up. No two Christians, no two religions, no two people that follow the same religion, will ever agree on everything "scripture" has to say. That's just a fact, because everyone that reads the bible interprets it in their own way, picks and chooses things to solidify their opinion and beliefs.
You're the one who said this site is dead. So when three long-time members come to the site and eagerly and happily revive a long-dead board with a lively discussion about a subject that interests them, that's A Bad Thing?Quote:
I just really wonder why religious people always ask questions like this. It reeks of insecurity and doubt, begging people to back up what you want to believe. Why not just believe it and forget what other people think?
No one has except for you.Quote:
And before you chastise me for posting, you asked the question begging for someone to say exactly what I just said.
We're not. This sort of discussion happens a lot in religion, especially in Christianity. And now you've made us go off topic. :-(Quote:
It is called a belief for a reason. It's not called a fact for the very same reason. Just believe and stop trying to get others to share that belief.
We have something better than that. Plus, the angels are jumping up and down with glee.Quote:
Good Luck.
" Paul even calls his gospel... "MY gospel". No! Not at ALL what John Preached. Did John preach the death, burial and resurrection? Wow if he did my bible is missing some pages? DUDE you are being deceived! John preached to repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand. He believe Jesus was there to take over with his Kingdom."Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Two gospels = two ways of salvation. Galatians 1:8 says "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!" So if you really want to have two gospels, then everybody who preached - or will preach in some future scenario - this other gospel that you suggest for John etc. then Paul puts them under God's curse. Any way you try to slice it, if you have two gospels, then you have two ways of salvation. Because that's what the Gospel is. You are really digging yourself into a hole here.
Dave,
Exactly if anyone preaches a different gospel let him be cursed! That is for right now! You bet it is! But Dave, there is coming a time when the church is raptured, there will be no more GRACE period and the message will be look up, he is coming back. Listen if the church is raptured that means there is no more church, that period has ended, Paul's gospel of grace, will end. The millions of people who will be SAVED during the tribulation period will not be part of the bride. They will either be martyred... OR they are the people who will populate the earth when Jesus comes back. He will separate the sheep from the goats... the ones with faith waiting on his return go into the 1000 year rule and reign. That's what I believe. OK let me say this s l o w l y... I do not believe in two different ways of salvation. I believe the message changed from back in Moses day ( the Law), to our day, ( Grace) to the coming day ( the Messiah is coming back). ONE WAY TO GOD EVERRRRR - Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE WAY. Should I say that again? ONE WAY! The message will simply be different but you still come through Jesus Christ.
Yet again, tons of theological speculation based on an artificial grid that people lay over the Bible to pigeon-hole God and all His doings, with not a single Bible passage to back it up.
Welcome to dispensationalism.
If you would just once sit down and let the Bible speak for itself, you would realize how counter-biblical all this stuff really is. "That is for right now"? That's beyond ridiculous. I don't know any other word for it. This whole "GRACE period" business, "church age" and all that, are made-up ideas that have no actual basis in the text. I've already pointed out how your "present truth" phrase doesn't mean remotely what your theologians have told you it does. And when you add "That is for right now" to the Galatians passage, you are READING INTO the Bible, not learning from it. Try reading the whole thing from cover to cover, WITHOUT the dispensational glasses. You'll be surprised what you find.
And people in the BC days were saved by faith just like everybody else in every age, read Paul for pity's sake. He says that again and again and again. The only difference was level of knowledge about the object of their faith. But it works the same from the beginnings of human history to the present time and forever and ever Amen. FAITH THROUGH GRACE. There's no difference now than there was then, except we have more light than they did. That's it.
There is no "church age" or "age of grace." All of history is the Age Of Grace because that's always how God deals with people. There is no need to yank some out so others wind up with a different whatever. The whole thing is so convoluted and absurd I was amazed how long it took me to realize it. Clearly, it's taking you a bit longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:25 PM. |