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Morganite,
You're kidding, aren't you? To make any comparison to Matthew 27:50-53 to anything to do with what psychics tells me you are not serious.
I did not mention psychics. I addressed the fact that the Bible says that at the time of the resurrection of Jesus that many other of the saints who slept rose from their graves and were resurrected after Jesus.
Most would argue that it might have to do with the "spirits in prison" or the O.T. saints be resurrected if anything- but you show your lack of Biblical literacy with your statement where it pertains to what the Bible clearly is NOT silent about- which is psychics (one kind of witchcraft). Re-read what I have written. I make no such connection.
I am unclear where you are going with this as it seems a bit of a muddle, but whoever it was that was resurrected the Bible is quite specific.
I disregard your jibe at my “Bible literacy” and point out that the term ‘saint’ when used in either the Hebrew or Greek scriptures has nothing to do with canonisation, but means purely and simply a member of the congregation of Israel (sdq) or a member of the church of Jesus Christ (hagios), which is regarded as the continuation of the congregation of Israel.
The Bible records several physical resurrections that have taken place. Once these people lived out their lives they died & are waiting to be brought back to life in one of the other resurrections.
These were not resurrection if they have to die again. Resurrection is being raised to eternal life.
Some examples are given in 1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:32-37;13:20-21; Matthew 27:50-53; Luke 7:11-15;8:41-42; John 11:1-4,11-14,17-44; Acts 9:36-42... and more.
You must not confuse revivification with resurrection. Revivification is a temporary restoration to life, but resurrection is a permanent condition in which the person resurrected does not expire again – ever. Jesus is still in possession of his resurrection, having been raised eternal and incorruptible.
I believe Matthew 27:50-53 to be another miracle of Jesus. There is something symbolic to the timing but I haven't put my finger on it yet. But the Bible is not silent about that once we attain the Resurrection, we will not die anymore (Luke 20:35-36). So I see nothing besides miracles that some people got to live with their loved ones again on earth in Matthew 27:50-53.
It is essential that you allow the narrative to speak for itself. When it refers to the graves being opened and those who ‘slept’, i.e. those who were ‘dead,’ being raised, then they followed Jesus in his resurrection. The passage is vindication of the principle and fact of physical resurrection. It is clear that resurrection is what happened to those saints in Matthew 27.
Consider the miracles of Jesus and the purpose and part they played in his ministry and self-revelation of himself as the Messiah. Jesus changed the water into wine, showing that he had the power of creation, a characteristic he shared with his Father. When he stilled the waves, he demonstrated that he had power over the elements. He did the same when he walked on water. When he healed the man born blind, he said he had done it to show the power of God, as Jesus himself explained.
Healing the sick, the paralytic, the woman with the issue of blood, and all the other miracles that Jesus did were not only to benefit the individuals receiving his benison, but to show forth the power of God with which he, as the Son of God, was endowed.
When Jesus was raised from the dead never to die again, the time for miracles to persuade people that he was the Son of God endowed with the power of God the Father was past. He had given all the signs, the last of which was his being raised after he was dead.
The saints in Matt 27 were resurrected in the fullest sense of the word, not merely revivified. He had previously shown his power in calling back the eternal and immortal spirits of several people whether they were only just dead, recently dead, or, as in the case eof Lazarus, dead for a period greater than three days, something that only someone endowed with the power of God could do, according to Jewish belief.
The raising or Lazarus was a sure sign to unbelieving Jews that Jesus had the power of God the Father working within him, and many believed. That is what the Bible indicates at Matt 27, and that is precisely what it means.
Since you apparently failed to grasp my meaning when I said the Bible was silent, I will explain what I meant. I meant that the Bible was silent as to the fate of those who were raised at the same time of Jesus. I said nothing about psychics, so I don’t know how you, got side tracked into the occult when they were no part of my explanation. I was addressing those souls that were resurrected following the resurrection of Jesus. That is what I said, that is what I intended, and that is, as I understand the Bible, and I am not such a stranger to the Bible as you insultingly accuse.
You might benefit by broadening your understanding of other scholars’ appraisals of this event in the Matthean record by becoming familiar with some other arguments. The following sites contain some material that is consonant, although I do not subscribe to it all, but it will open the subject much wider than you have it at present, and I trust you will agree that the more we know the greater the opportunity we have for discovering the truth.
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/oddrise.html
Were these saints resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 just to live again and die or were they resurrected to eternal glory? -- John MacArthur
USCCB - NAB - Matthew 27 – see note 31
What is the meaning of those who were raised to life at Jesus’ death (Matthew 27:52-53)?
What Happened to the Resurrected Saints?
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RESURRECTED SAINTS? – for an atheistic discussion of the event.
Whatever you believed happened and why, does not change the fact of what is recorded in the gospel of Matthew. Where the record is silent (nothing at all to do with psychics, so please do not revisit that on me!), we are left to consider from the text (what is written), the context (the circumstances and surrounding events in which it appears within the narrative), and the zeitgeist (the spirit of the age – in this case, Jewish belief), what the reader is intended to carry away from the story.
It is certain that when viewed in the completeness of text, context, and target audience (Palestinian Jews of the first Christian century), that they were intended to believe without argument that not only was Jesus resurrected to eternal life, but also that many of the saints who were also dead rose immediately afterwards, and produced many witnesses. Nothing else makes sense.
I trust that my position on this is clearer. If not, please feel free to ask me for further clarification.
M:)RGANITE
Morganite,
I was wondering(& still am) why you responded in post#54 the way you did. It made you sound like Matthew 27:50-53 was indeed an argument for ghosts.
Yes the people brought back to life were "revived" not resurrected. That we agree about.
I just don't understand what you meant in post #54. I'll read the other references you gave later on when I have more time, thanks.
"galveston disagrees: Wait and see! "
What are you disagreeing with??
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE:Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
I have never mentioned psychics.
I have never mentioned ghosts.
Please read what I did mention. If you cannot understand it then request clarification from me and I will be pleased to explain myself in clearer terms, but please try not to shoot off in different directions than those I actually addressed.
The people in Matt 27 were RESURRECTED. That is what the text says. Bodies do not rise without their spirit revitalising them, and the re-joining of the separated eternal spirit with the dead body is RESURRECTION. If the bodies rose without being RESURRECTED, then you would have soulless Zombies [in which I do not believe], not ghosts [in which I do believe].
I am labouring under the impression that I am capable of explaining what I mean without anyone getting lost, even where they disagree with my opinions, but you so badly mangle what I write and twist what I have said that you distort what I have written into things that I have not so much as mentioned.
??
I would say that it depends entirely on the faithfulness of the believers. Not all believers exercise the same degree of faithfulness and obedience to the will of the Father. I will add that it is not given to any man to be able to judge what the lot of each individual person will be at any time. That is for God and Christ to judge. However, Matt 7 does set out some facts on which individuals might question whether they are in compliance or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Morganite,
OK forget about the psychics. You didn't mention that but I thought you were commenting on it- so forget about that.
Anyway Luke 20:35-36 says that once we attain resurrection, we don't face death again. So the individual resurrections of Lazarus and the people mentioned in Matt27 could not be confused with the Resurrection of the Saints and The second resurrection-The Great White Throne of Judgment...
That's all. I'm basically agreeing with part of what robynhgl wrote that you quoted.
Lazarus was revived and would have to die again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
Jairus' daughter was revived, etc.
The centurion's servant was revived, etc.
However, those saints (Christians and faithful Israelites) mentioned in Matt 27 were resurrceted and did not have to die again. Jesus was the "firstfruit of those resurrected" but the resurrection at this time was only a partial one and not the general resurrection yet to come.
M:)
With your post #38. I probably misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Ready or not, here he comes!
Did you mean Jesus, or galveston? LOL. Either way, I'm forewarned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morganite
I don't see the second coming as a world event that happens to everybody alive at a single point in time (I know this version is not Biblically Correct, so don't even go there). I think it is an individual event that happens to different people at different times and to different degrees. The proportion of living people who have experienced it vividly changes over time, sometimes increasing, sometimes decreasing. Those who have experienced it are "new creatures" in the sense that having seen and felt the unity of all things, they can no longer act selfishly or in ways that damage or undermine that unity.
World events tend to reflect whether the proportion of such people is higher or lower in the population in a particular era. Where do you think that pendulum is right now? Is there a time in history when you think it was higher than it is now?
http:
//www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/pretribulation_rapture.htm
Personally I'm not that concerned about when the "Rapture of the Church" will be because I think I'm going to be one of the "dead in Christ". However the Pre-Trib/Post-Trib/ Split-Trib readings have been very interesting. This morning Pastor John Hagee (televangelist) was teaching about Revelation.
I missed the series but the overhead diagram he had there clearly showed the "Rapture" prior to the Great Tribulation. Then I thought about how much tribulation many believers have already overcome & logic won. What would be the purpose of having those in Christ go through "God's winepress of wrath" in the end times? :confused:
Jesus will come again when he is no longer needed. (that is, when we all believe we can some how save ourselves.)
We will NEVER ALL believe that so don't include me in your "we" description. We will always need Jesus & we cannot save ourselves without Him. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangdoodle
Surely, you jest, sir! "Don't even go there"? How is it possible to have a discussion of Christian religion without using the Bible? Also, I notice that the word and concept of "unity" appear regularly in these posts. I'm curious, is your god the God of the Bible, or is it "Unity"? Do you folks worship unity?Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
I think you took that the wrong way. What I meant was, when we think we don't need Christ, is when we really need him the most. Jesus is our salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrotia
Your original question was "What are your thoughts about the return of Jesus Christ?". I answered the question, that's all. If you only wanted answers that were consistent with your interpretation of the Bible, you should have phrased your question differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
"You folks"? Are you addressing a group of people, or me individually? Speaking only for myself, I don't worship unity, but I do experience it as a reality from time to time. Do you find the concept offensive or inconsistent with "the God of the Bible"?Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
Well, yes, inconsistent. Jesus plainlly said there is a broad way that leads to destruction and many travel on it, and that there is a narrow path that leads to heaven but few find it. This is not unity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
May you find fulfillment in your divisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by galveston
2nd Coming Christ is the last Adam, a life giving Spirit 1Cor 15:45
But why is second coming Christ a patern of Adam? Think about it, if Adam is there who else is with him? Eve, The Mother of all the Living.
So the last Adam should bring Eve right? Let's find out who Even is prophetically.
Two events will take place. First he must let the world know the truth, and gather the elect. THEN judgment day will come. He has to come in the order of Melchizedek and be the offspring of King David (Spiritually, not physically) and restore Zion and finish fulfilling the King David prophecy. Which has been done so already:) Right now we're in the last page of the book of Revelations
Rev 22:17"The Spirit and the Bride say come... "
Who is the bride? Some say "The church is the bride" NOT TRUE.
A prophecy takes place in the future, not in the present. Back then, the churches (Synagogues) where already existing. Some say "We are the bride" NOT TRUE, people
Also existed back then. Who is the bride then? This revelation was given to John, and it was going to take place in the future.
Rev 21:9
"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."
Rev 21:2
"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God
Can a city be a bride? No way, it's a parable.
The dwelling of God will be with man. This is His second coming, when he comes to bring salvation
But instead of showing him the bride, he showed him a city? So, this bride is the wife of the Lamb. The Lamb is our Father, than who's the bride? It's a parable friends:)
Gal 4:26 "But the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is our Mother"
Heb 9:28
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
Think about it. Physically who gives life? Mother gives life. But, even from the beginning God let us know his nature
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Let's see what happened in the creationg
Gen 1:26
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... "
God speaks in plural here.
Gen 1:27
"So God created man in his own image,
In the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
ELOHIM GOD. Father God and Mother God:) Together, 1 God:) The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one, so when God said 'let US' it wasn't the trinity speaking,
It was Father God and Mother God.
Only Mother can give us eternal life. We have to believe in Mother Jerusalem for she is the true meaning of the Passover.
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