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Originally Posted by galveston

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(KJV)

I think the "and" indicates that these may NOT be the same thing.

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Wrong. The construction in Greek is such that it denotes two of the same thing. The same construction is in the phrase "the great God and our savior," indicating that Jesus is both "the Great God" and "our savior." So if the "and" indicates that the blessed hope and glorious appearing aren't the same thing, the next "and indicates that Jesus and God are not the same thing. Are you prepared to say that?

It's called Granville Sharp's Rule, if you want to do some digging. Pretribbers like LaHaye try to claim it doesn't apply here, but they don't have any kind of linguistic basis for it.

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It's not likely that Paul would contridict himself on the subject. He wrote very specifically to the Thessalonians on the subject.



II Th 2:3-8
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

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What is the "day" that is spoken of? He tells us in verse 1:
"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him." That's not helping your pretribulational case, because he clearly says we won't be "gathered to" Jesus until these things have happened.

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I'm sure you know that "let" means hinder.

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So why not just say "hinder"? Why hang on to the KJV and have to get redundant explaining it? Check out the NIV, it makes much more sense because it's in our language.

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Verses 3 & 4 clearly describe Anit-Christ, and someone/something hinders his coming to power.

What could that be?
Not human government.
The Holy Spirit? How?
In this dispensation, the Holy Spirit works through believers, and the Church is made up of believers.

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Ah, there's the rub, as what's-his-name said. "In this dispensation." You assume everybody believes the whole dispensational schema. But we don't. It's an arbitrary overlay onto the Scriptures that frankly does more harm than good. Again, I suggest George Ladd, especially Crucial Questions About the Kingdom of God. We don't know that there is a single "anti-Christ;" in fact, John tells us that there are lots of them (1 John 2:18). And why couldn't the "hinderer" be human government? Or the Jews? Or El Niño? It's easy to say "It's not this" but it's another matter to prove it.

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If it is NOT the Church that holds back Anti Christ, then what/who do you suggest does so?

If it IS the Church, then the Church must be absent before Anti Christ can come to power.

What other agency do you suggest now holds back the full expression of evil in this world, and how and when do you expect it to be gone?

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I'm not going to bother with these questions, as any answer would be an assumption, just like yours. I don't know, and I don't care. My goal is to follow Jesus and let the future take care of itself.

It amazes me how so many Christians, especially American ones, talk as though going through "the Tribulation" is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to people. Um, try telling that to Christians in China right now. Try telling that to all the martyrs for the faith down through the centuries. Nothing but American escapism sustains the whole pretribulational idea, and it's frankly ridiculous. We've had it far too easy for far too long, and it's turned us into a group of wimps who quail at the very idea of REAL persecution. We all really need to grow up. (Yes, I count myself in that number.)

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Wrong. The construction in Greek is such that it denotes two of the same thing. The same construction is in the phrase "the great God and our savior," indicating that Jesus is both "the Great God" and "our savior." So if the "and" indicates that the blessed hope and glorious appearing aren't the same thing, the next "and indicates that Jesus and God are not the same thing. Are you prepared to say that?

It's called Granville Sharp's Rule, if you want to do some digging. Pretribbers like LaHaye try to claim it doesn't apply here, but they don't have any kind of linguistic basis for it.



What is the "day" that is spoken of? He tells us in verse 1:
"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him." That's not helping your pretribulational case, because he clearly says we won't be "gathered to" Jesus until these things have happened.



So why not just say "hinder"? Why hang on to the KJV and have to get redundant explaining it? Check out the NIV, it makes much more sense because it's in our language.



Ah, there's the rub, as what's-his-name said. "In this dispensation." You assume everybody believes the whole dispensational schema. But we don't. It's an arbitrary overlay onto the Scriptures that frankly does more harm than good. Again, I suggest George Ladd, especially Crucial Questions About the Kingdom of God. We don't know that there is a single "anti-Christ;" in fact, John tells us that there are lots of them (1 John 2:18). And why couldn't the "hinderer" be human government? Or the Jews? Or El Niño? It's easy to say "It's not this" but it's another matter to prove it.



I'm not going to bother with these questions, as any answer would be an assumption, just like yours. I don't know, and I don't care. My goal is to follow Jesus and let the future take care of itself.

It amazes me how so many Christians, especially American ones, talk as though going through "the Tribulation" is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to people. Um, try telling that to Christians in China right now. Try telling that to all the martyrs for the faith down through the centuries. Nothing but American escapism sustains the whole pretribulational idea, and it's frankly ridiculous. We've had it far too easy for far too long, and it's turned us into a group of wimps who quail at the very idea of REAL persecution. We all really need to grow up. (Yes, I count myself in that number.)

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They are valid questions. Why do you avoid them if you are on solid theological ground?

Can you see that a main feature of the Great Tribulation will be the wrath of God?


1Thes 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(KJV)

God's children will NOT go through the wrath of God. You agree?

1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

Do you believe this will happen?

When do you believe that it will happen?

Please give scripture for your opinion.

You see, I believe that if God didn't want us to know the seasons He would have not inspired the Gospel writers to even bring the subject up.

EDIT: Jesus and the Father are not the same person. Was that what you refer to in the first paragraph?

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Originally Posted by galveston

They are valid questions. Why do you avoid them if you are on solid theological ground?

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Because there are no answers. I know dispensationalists like to have every duck in its own box (yes, I love mixed metaphors) but the Bible won't be pigeon-holed like that. Get over it.

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Can you see that a main feature of the Great Tribulation will be the wrath of God?

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Um, no. God's wrath is already being poured out (Rom 1:18; Eph 5:6; 1 Thess 2:16). These passages all use either present or past tenses, not future. In fact, if the "main feature" of this "Great Tribulation" is the wrath of God, that's an even better argument for the view that it's happening right now, not in some future novelize-able scenario. So you're not doing your view a whole lot of good so far.

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1Thes 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
(KJV)

1Thes 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(KJV)

God's children will NOT go through the wrath of God. You agree?

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No, I don't. God's children DO not go through the wrath of God. The passages you quote are clearly talking about eternal condemnation. That's especially true since Paul seems to be including himself among those who have been saved from that wrath, and we know he wasn't there for any Great Tribulation.

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1Thes 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(KJV)

Do you believe this will happen?

When do you believe that it will happen?

Please give scripture for your opinion.

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Already answered and scripture given. I see no reason to repeat myself.

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You see, I believe that if God didn't want us to know the seasons He would have not inspired the Gospel writers to even bring the subject up.

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As a patriotic American I adamantly support your right to believe whatever you want. That doesn't make it right.

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EDIT: Jesus and the Father are not the same person. Was that what you refer to in the first paragraph?

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So Jesus isn't God? Is that what you're saying? Titus 2:13 doesn't mention the Father; you plucked that out of the air. That's something dispensationalists do a lot.

I do firmly believe in the resurrection of the just, but NOT in the rapture as LaHaye presents it.
To me his books are a hoax.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

I do firmly believe in the resurrection of the just, but NOT in the rapture as LaHaye presents it.
To me his books are a hoax.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred, You have said this a dozen times at least and every time I tell you the Left Behind series is a work of fiction. Get over it please and move on!
So you believe that the Christian church will be there during the tribulation period? Where do you get that from Scripture please. And if you were to read all the prophesies concerning the tribulation period you would quickly learn that one of the signals of the start of the end times is the removal or the restraining force from the earth. Thus allowing Satan his season (7 year period) or the tribulation. What is the restraining force you should be asking? Once you come to terms with that answer you will realize what the rapture is about.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Fred, You have said this a dozen times at least and every time I tell you the Left Behind series is a work of fiction. Get over it please and move on!

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Are you joking? The series is based on LaHaye's own theological assumptions, and that's what we're talking about. Quit trying to dodge.

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So you believe that the Christian church will be there during the tribulation period? Where do you get that from Scripture please. And if you were to read all the prophesies concerning the tribulation period you would quickly learn that one of the signals of the start of the end times is the removal or the restraining force from the earth. Thus allowing Satan his season (7 year period) or the tribulation. What is the restraining force you should be asking? Once you come to terms with that answer you will realize what the rapture is about.

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*TWEET* Foul on the play! I already answered this and you haven't dealt with what I said. Section 4, paragraph 8, subparagraph c of the Guide To Dumb Things Christians Argue With Each Other About manual specifically prohibits this kind of dodge. The manual requires you to answer me before trying to pass the question off to somebody else.

:D:D:D

So here you go again making assumptions based on what? NO knowledge just assumptions which are all wrong! Dr LaHay is the first to tell you that the books are a work of fiction. It is based on scripture, BUT IT WAS WRITTEN AS A NOVEL, WHICH IS FICTIONS! Anyone that thinks they are his interpretation of what will happen in the end has never read them. Have you? I have, And while they are a great read, I do not believe most of them.

I get reddies for calling you a smart mouth, but the same people say nothing to you for your comments in your last few posts. Why is that?
Since you are new to the forums, you need to chill a bit more.

dwashbur,
The bible does say that the Church will be here to the end of time.
Jesus said it and that the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by 450donn

So here you go again making assumptions based on what? NO knowledge just assumptions which are all wrong! Dr LaHay is the first to tell you that the books are a work of fiction. It is based on scripture, BUT IT WAS WRITTEN AS A NOVEL, WHICH IS FICTIONS! Anyone that thinks they are his interpretation of what will happen in the end has never read them. Have you? I have, And while they are a great read, I do not believe most of them.

I get reddies for calling you a smart mouth, but the same people say nothing to you for your comments in your last few posts. Why is that?
Since you are new to the forums, you need to chill a bit more.

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Have you read Are We Living In the End Times? LaHaye wrote it, by his own description, as a companion volume to explain the theology behind the books. He says in so many words that the novels are his interpretation of the biblical material. I read most of the novels; I also read and reviewed the companion volume. That's how I know that the books do represent what he thinks will happen: he said so.

dwashbur,
Yes he did say so.
There are millions of people who think differently that LaHaye did or does.
I am one of that many.
The main thing to know is that Jesus will return and I hope soon for we need Him to put a stop to all the wars, murders, rapes and other terrible things we humans do to each other.
When all of the prophesies are finally fulfilled they we can expect His return.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

Nothing but American escapism sustains the whole pretribulational idea, and it's frankly ridiculous.

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This is an interesting thought that I have often pondered over. I have to admit that I have not spent a lot of time studying out the various passages that seem to deal with all of the prevailing ideas concerning the last days. Jesus Christ suffered greatly at the hands of sinful men. So did Paul and Peter. Stephen was stoned to death. John was exiled on Patmos. John the Baptist was beheaded. King David was pursued and despised by Saul for his faith in Yahweh.

The people of God throughout every generation have suffered on account of their faith. So it is striking to come across this idea that God will spare his people from suffering and wisk them away on a cloud. And I agree with you that the passages some cite to prove the point are passages that are talking about the condemnation that awaits those who are disobedient to the truth. To those who out of a good conscience serve the Creator and persevere in doing good (as Paul puts it), they will receive life everlasting, but to those who do evil, there will be wrath and fury. Paul goes on to use the language of tribulation:

"There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality."

The context in this passage is the judgment of God on the day of judgment. To those who have obeyed God and served him, they will be spared from eternal condemnation. That is how I understand both this passage as well as many of the others that I see people referring to. That's why I am suspect of the claims made by some, of God rescuing people from tribulation other than eternal condemnation.

My feeling is that if the biblical authors are saying that there is this period of tribulation that God will spare his people from, that reality cannot be proven by passages that are talking about eternal condemnation. I'm sure many would disagree with me. This is an interesting discussion, though.

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Originally Posted by arcura

dwashbur,
The bible does say that the Church will be here to the end of time.
Jesus said it and that the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Again Fred, please quote the scripture reference. Not what the pope or your priest thinks!

And belovedgift gives me my very first reddie! Now I really feel like part of the gang.

Beloved, did you see the three big grins after my paragraph? Dost thou understand the concept of a joke??

One of the biggest problems with this whole discussion, and indeed most intra-Christian discussions, is people take themselves far too seriously. My philosophy is "have a dumb joke for every occasion and you'll have fewer ulcers."

It really astounds me how you who claim to be christian slam a pastor that has done more to protect the unborn and children from murder and pedophiles than all the popes in the RCC put together.
According to wicipedia, "LaHaye has promoted or started numerous groups to promote his views, having became involved in politics at the Christian Voice during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In 1981 he left the pulpit to concentrate his time on politics and writing.[4] That year, he helped found the Council for National Policy (CNP) a lobby group in which membership is only available through invitation; it has been called "the most powerful conservative organization in America you've never heard of," and should not be confused with the liberal Center for National Policy.[5] In 1979, he helped to establish the Institute for Creation Research, along with Henry Morris, in Santee, California. The same year he encouraged Jerry Falwell to found the Moral Majority, whose board of directors he sat on.[3][5] In the 1980s, LaHaye founded the American Coalition for Traditional Values and the Coalition for Religious Freedom. He founded the Pre-Tribulation Research Center along with Thomas Ice in 1998. The center is dedicated to producing material that supports a dispensationalist, pre-tribulation interpretation of the Bible. He and his wife have connections to the John Birch Society, a conservative, anti-communist group.[1][6]

Don't you think that before you go out and slam someone for his beliefs that you try and understand him and his teachings first?

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Originally Posted by 450donn

It really astounds me how you who claim to be christian slam a pastor that has done more to protect the unborn and children from murder and pedophiles than all the popes in the RCC put together.
According to wicipedia, "LaHaye has promoted or started numerous groups to promote his views, having became involved in politics at the Christian Voice during the late 1970s and early 1980s. In 1981 he left the pulpit to concentrate his time on politics and writing.[4] That year, he helped found the Council for National Policy (CNP) a lobby group in which membership is only available through invitation; it has been called "the most powerful conservative organization in America you've never heard of," and should not be confused with the liberal Center for National Policy.[5] In 1979, he helped to establish the Institute for Creation Research, along with Henry Morris, in Santee, California. The same year he encouraged Jerry Falwell to found the Moral Majority, whose board of directors he sat on.[3][5] In the 1980s, LaHaye founded the American Coalition for Traditional Values and the Coalition for Religious Freedom. He founded the Pre-Tribulation Research Center along with Thomas Ice in 1998. The center is dedicated to producing material that supports a dispensationalist, pre-tribulation interpretation of the Bible. He and his wife have connections to the John Birch Society, a conservative, anti-communist group.[1][6]

Don't you think that before you go out and slam someone for his beliefs that you try and understand him and his teachings first?

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So the fact that he tries to do some good in areas like abortion, he's infallible in eschatology?

I do understand him and his teachings. And as a pastor, he's fine. As a theologian, he leaves much to be desired. I challenge you to read something beyond your own little dispensational circle and find out just how many fallacies there are in that system before you go slamming us for pointing them out.

Once again, we are basing our critiques on what LaHaye has actually said in print. That's not slamming him, that's called peer review. It's an accepted part of doing scholarship.

And I gather you still think I'm a Catholic?

A couple of things:

What does Paul say in his salutations? (First verse or two)

Rom 1:3-4
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
(KJV)

1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

2 Cor 1:2-3
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
(KJV)

Gal 1:1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
(KJV)

Eph 1:2-3
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(KJV)

Phil 1:2
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Col 1:2-3
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
(KJV)

1Thes 1:1
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

II Th 1:1-2
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

1 Tim 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
(KJV)

2 Tim 1:2
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
(KJV)

Titus 1:4
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
(KJV)

Titus 1:4
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
(KJV)

Phile 1:3
3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

Paul understood the concept of Father and Son.

The Father is God, the Son is God.

They are not the same person.

The Holy Ghost is a Person, God, but neither the Father or the Son.

I assume you know this.

Now as to the wrath of God:


Rev 6:16
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(KJV)

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

Rev 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(KJV)

Rev 14:19
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(KJV)

Rev 15:1
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
(KJV)

Rev 15:7
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
(KJV)

Rev 16:1
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
(KJV)

Rev 16:19
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
(KJV)

Rev 19:15
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
(KJV)

Do you still think that the wrath of God will not be a major feature of the Great Tribulation?

The Earth has not seen the wrath of God since the days of Noah, other than isolated cases, such as Sodom and Gomorrah.

I assume you DO believe that believers will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

At what point (not date) do you think this will happen?

It is clear that Paul taught it as being the same time as the general resurrection of the just.

Let me give you one more point.


Matt 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)

Luke 17:28-30
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
(KJV)

Here we have it from the lips of Jesus.
The flood did not come until Noah was in the ark!

And:

The fire of destruction did not fall until Lot was out of town.

Get it?

The wrath of God will not fall on this planet until the believers are safe with Him.

Hallellujah!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galveston

I assume you DO believe that believers will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

At what point (not date) do you think this will happen?

It is clear that Paul taught it as being the same time as the general resurrection of the just.

Let me give you one more point.


Matt 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)

Luke 17:28-30
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
(KJV)

Here we have it from the lips of Jesus.
The flood did not come until Noah was in the ark!

And:

The fire of destruction did not fall until Lot was out of town.

Get it?

The wrath of God will not fall on this planet until the believers are safe with Him.

Hallellujah!

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You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot here, because there was essentially no interval between when Noah went into the ark and the flood, or when Lot exited town and when Sodom was destroyed. Likewise, Jesus' return is a single event: believers caught up into the air return to earth with him in triumph. In fact, the term that's used in 1 Thessalonians for "meet" as in "meet him in the air" was used to describe the people of a city going out to meet a conquering king and immediately escort him back to the city. Same deal with the return of Jesus.

As for God's wrath, I already presented several passages that speak of it in the present and past tenses; what do you do with those?

dwashbur,
I do agree with you.
Fred

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

You're kind of shooting yourself in the foot here, because there was essentially no interval between when Noah went into the ark and the flood, or when Lot exited town and when Sodom was destroyed. Likewise, Jesus' return is a single event: believers caught up into the air return to earth with him in triumph. In fact, the term that's used in 1 Thessalonians for "meet" as in "meet him in the air" was used to describe the people of a city going out to meet a conquering king and immediately escort him back to the city. Same deal with the return of Jesus.

As for God's wrath, I already presented several passages that speak of it in the present and past tenses; what do you do with those?

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It sounds to me like you don't put much credence in the Book of Revelation.

In the Scriptures I gave you, wrath fell AFTER Noah and Lot were safe.

The vials of wrath will be poured out on this Earth BEFORE Jesus returns.

You apparently think that believers will be present when that wrath is poured out. I do not.

When Jesus comes back TO EARTH with his saints, it will be to establish the Kingdom of God in its visible and physical form on this planet.

You have not answered what your belief is concerning the resurrection of the righteous. At what point in the chain of events?