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Originally Posted by paraclete

So Joe you don't believe in the adage if the student doesn't learn the teacher hasn't taught. What I know, Joe, is you can't impart what you don't know yourself, so if the master doesn't know Christ, the student will not either, thus the great falling away. It is not the fault of those taught in Catholic schools, it is the fault of their teachers who will be those to whom Christ will say depart from me I never knew you

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Actually I don’t; how is it that the student can judge whether the master ‘doesn’t know Christ’ when still a student and didn’t know Christ himself?

My early experience was nearly void of teachers and God, yet I found God’s Truth, hope, and love in the Catholic Church - on my own (well not exactly – I probably had an army of guardian angels.) I never finished high school for a verity of reasons (most of which were my own fault). Disadvantaged in my early 20’s I was still able to read the early fathers, the Bible to discern for myself Catholicism was true – it doesn’t take a great intellect. How is it that I, having no teachers, a functional illiterate found the truth in her, and you having teachers didn’t?

Needn’t find reason to blame the Catholic Church in order to turn your back on her. After all, she's just a pile of bricks isn't she? People walk away all the time, and when some have a change mind they're surprised to find the door open. It’s an attraction similar to iron caught in a strong magnetic field – once that threshold is crossed, once the iron gets too close it can’t resist the pull. When you stop spiting on her and start being just to her, soon after, you’ve arrived at that threshold, she becomes irresistible. You tell me; it just seems to me, that at some time you’ve got to run out of spittle.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
It is true that in the past certain members of The Church made some mistakes just as some in all churches make mistakes today as you and I sometimes do.
The stories about what The Church did with Holy Scripture are mostly un-true.
IF The Church had wanted to only it would have the bible today for, for for many years it was the only one who printed it.
I've know for years that you are very anti-Catholic so I think that you probably wont believe me or real authentic history on that.
Be that as it may be...
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred very anti-catholic isn't how I would describe myself because I hold the same views about certain non-catholic organisations. How do you think it is, Fred, to find yourself deceived as a child into following a religion instead of christ. You can decieve yourself all you want but the history of the Catholic church for centuries was very murky. Today we condemn Muslims who go on jihad but in the middle ages that is exactly what catholics did, slaughtering even their fellow christians with the full sanction and blessing of the Church. You cannot white wash church history Fred and what the church leadership has done, and even still does, in white washing the vile acts of priests and clerics.' WHITED SEPTLECURES FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES ALL OF THEM

I stand for truth Fred, I have known some very good catholic people but only a few hundred yards from my present home vile acts were perpretrated by catholic clergy. What excuse would you like to make for these Fred? People who dragged Jesus name through the mud. Were they demon possessed?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Actually I don’t; how is it that the student can judge whether or not the master ‘doesn’t know Christ’ when still a student and didn’t know Christ himself?

My early experience was nearly void of teachers and God, yet I found God’s Truth, hope, and love in the Catholic Church - on my own (well not exactly – I probably had an army of guardian angels.) I never finished high school for a verity of reasons (most of which were my own fault). Disadvantaged in my early 20’s I was still able to read the early fathers, the Bible to discern for myself Catholicism was true – it doesn’t take a great intellect. How is it that I, having no teachers, a functional illiterate found the truth in her, and you having teachers didn’t?

Needn’t find reason to blame the Catholic Church in order to turn your back on her. After all, she's just a pile of bricks isn't she? People walk away all the time, and when some have a change mind they're surprised to find the door open. It’s an attraction similar to iron caught in a strong magnetic field – once that threshold is crossed, once the iron gets too close it can’t resist the pull. When you stop spiting on her and start being just to her, soon after, you’ve arrived at that threshold, she becomes irresistible. You tell me; it just seems to me, that at some time you’ve got to run out of spittle.

JoeT

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Joe any time I tried to return to the RCC I found the door closed

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Originally Posted by paraclete

…the history of the Catholic Church for centuries was very murky. Today we condemn Muslims who go on jihad but in the middle ages that is exactly what Catholics did, slaughtering even their fellow Christians with the full sanction and blessing of the Church. You cannot white wash church history Fred and what the church leadership has done, and even still does, in white washing the vile acts of priests and clerics.' WHITED SEPTLECURES [Sepulchre ?] FULL OF DEAD MEN'S BONES ALL OF THEM

I stand for truth…

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So, when are we going to hear this Truth? This sample doesn't seem to exhibit any.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Joe any time I tried to return to the RCC I found the door closed.

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This would be different from most experiences. Either way, maybe it was that suitcase full of snakes like those above that scared them?


If there is a next time, maybe try pulling on the door, instead of putting your shoulder against like you're going to push the wall over. Most exterior doors open outward.

JoeT

[QUOTE=Comments on this post
rosemcs agrees : many saints were illiterate or children themselves, and yet they understood their faith
Give yours Agree Disagree *Required*
[/QUOTE]



We agree on most everything else but we disagree on this point - :)

The fact that "saints" were illiterate or children yet "understood" their faith is a compelling argument AGAINST religion, at least in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

So, when are we going to hear this Truth? This sample doesn’t seem to exhibit any.





This would be different from most experiences. Either way, maybe it was that suitcase full of snakes like those above that scared them?


If there is a next time, maybe try to pulling on the door, instead of putting your shoulder against like you’re going to push the wall over. Most exterior doors open outward.

JoeT

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Joe you miss the point entirely

paraclete,
You SEEM to be very mixed up about Catholicism.
The Catholic faith and teachings are all the religion of Christianity.
I think you have ignored some of what rosemecs and Joe mentioned in their posts on this.
The Catholic Church is the foundation of today's Christianity and all other denominations have their basic beginning root therein.
The Church is still growing with over 1 billion members world wide and as Jesus said the gates hell will not prevail against it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
You SEEM to be very mixed up about Catholicism.
The Catholic faith and teachings are all the religion of Christianity.UH Fred are you actually saying what I think you are saying/ Thyat the Catholic Chuirch is the basis for ALL other churches?
I think you have ignored some of what rosemecs and Joe mentioned in their posts on this.
The Catholic Church is the foundation of today's Christianity and all other denominations have their basic beginning root therein.I cannot believe you actually believe this statement! GOD THROUGH HIS SON JESUS IS THE ROOT AND FOUNDATION OF CHRISTIANITY. NOT THE RCC!!!!!!!
The Church is still growing with over 1 billion members world wide and as Jesus said the gates hell will not prevail against it.UHHHH so what! The muslum faith is the fastest growing religion in the world right now. So what is your point except to attempt to make your brand of religion look better than all others?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred, please go back and rewrite your post to reflect your actual true beliefs. Or did you already do that?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Joe you miss the point entirely

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In that case I’ll leave it at that.

JoeT

450donn,
I meant what I said,, Peter is the rock on which Jesus said he would build His Church and Peter was the first leader of The Church and therefore the foundation of Christianity as the bible says. The Church IS the source and foundation of the truth.
Yes all the other denominations do have roots that go back to the very first Christian Church that is a historical fact.
The point I was making about Church growth is that in spite of all the efforts today and over the centuries The Church is still strong and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete,
You SEEM to be very mixed up about Catholicism.
The Catholic faith and teachings are all the religion of Christianity.
I think you have ignored some of what rosemecs and Joe mentioned in their posts on this.
The Catholic Church is the foundation of today's Christianity and all other denominations have their basic beginning root therein.
The Church is still growing with over 1 billion members world wide and as Jesus said the gates hell will not prevail against it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred, I'm not mixed up about Catholicism.
Catholicism is a religion based on Christianity. There are other expressions of Christianity which are not catholicism
Catholicism has added to Christianity taking the foundation laid by Christ and adding a lot of dogma which does not enhance the Christian experience.
The Church that is growing today is Christianity, not catholicism.

You see Fred I'm not interested in being part of a religion, but in being part of a relationship with Christ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

450donn,
I meant what I said,,,, Peter is the rock on which Jesus said he would build His Church and Peter was the first leader of The Church and therefore the foundation of Christianity as the bible says. The Church IS the source and foundation of the truth.
Yes all the other denominations do have roots that go back to the very first Christian Church that is a historical fact.
The point I was making about Church growth is that in spite of all the efforts today and over the centuries The Church is still strong and growing.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred,I am going to hold your feet to the fire. Please give scripture references if you choose to "quote" or use what you propose to be quotes from the word.
It has been pointed out numerous times before, Peter did NOT start any churches. He worked within the existing Jewish system. By building Jesus was making reference to his teachings being the foundation not a "church" Also when did the RCC start? Certainly not in within a few hundred years of Jesus life. So how can you continue to make such outlandish claims?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Fred,I am going to hold your feet to the fire. Please give scripture references if you choose to "quote" or use what you propose to be quotes from the word.
It has been pointed out numerous times before, Peter did NOT start any churches. He worked within the existing Jewish system. By building Jesus was making reference to his teachings being the foundation not a "church" Also when did the RCC start? Certainly not in within a few hundred years of Jesus life. So how can you continue to make such outlandish claims ??

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Donn he makes the claims because he has been indoctrinated by the RCC, For some reason the RCC have to believe they are the only valid expression of Christianity despite recent reforms. You find such ideas in other churches too

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Donn he makes the claims because he has been indoctrinated by the RCC, For some reason the RCC have to believe they are the only valid expression of Christianity despite recent reforms. You find such ideas in other churches too

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And how does the RCC 'indoctrinate'?

What reforms? I’m unaware of any ‘reforms’ that aren’t ‘deformed’.

The 'ideas' you speak of are rooted in Christ, Scripture, Tradition, Church, Bishops, Councils, Popes, and miracles. Abandon any one of these and you’ve abandon them all. All of these focus on our love for Christ, Christ’s word and Christ’s commandments. Therefore, are you suggesting that Catholics should abandon Christ?

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

And how does the RCC 'indoctrinate'?

What reforms? I’m unaware of any ‘reforms’ that aren’t ‘deformed’.

The 'ideas' you speak of are rooted in Christ, Scripture, Tradition, Church, Bishops, Councils, Popes, and miracles. Abandon any one of these and you’ve abandon them all. All of these focus on our love for Christ, Christ’s word and Christ’s commandments. Therefore, are you suggesting that Catholics should abandon Christ?

JoeT

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OK, so you are steeped in tradition that is written by MAN! What does these mortals that you are alluding to have to do with the true, inspired word of GOD? Sounds to me like you are trying to make them gods too.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

OK, so you are steeped in tradition that is written by MAN! What does these mortals that you are alluding to have to do with the true, inspired word of GOD? Sounds to me like you are trying to make them gods too.

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But what of traditions of Christ? "And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us." 2Thessalonians 3:6

What of the Tradition that the Apostles followed? "And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts of the Apostles 2:42

It would seem a closer look at 'traditions' is in order.

JoeT

paraclete ,
As I said and still stand by, what the RCC teaches and stands for is all bible based.
I KNOW that, I studied it and I learned the truth about the Catholic Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

OH I just love it when you quote scripture totally out of context.
The passage you quoted in 2 TH is a warning against idleness
And the one in Acts is talking about the foundational content of the believers spiritual growth and maturity was the scriptures.

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Originally Posted by arcura

paraclete ,
As I said and still stand by, what the RCC teaches and stands for is all bible based.
I KNOW that, I studied it and I learned the truth about the Catholic Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Yes Fred, we all understand that you have been brainwashed. But sure is fun to dispel all your thoughts all the time.

450donn,
OK here it is...
Matthew chapter 16, 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Notice that Jesus was speaking directly to Peter and about Peter and He gave the keys to heaven to Peter which made Peter King Jesus' Prime Minister here on earth.
History and the bible tell us that Peter moved to Rome and the Church headquarters was then in Rome and has been ever since.
Peace and kindness,
Fred