Akoue,
There are different understandings of "hope"
Such as I hope you have a good nights rest.
I'm about ready to hit the hay for another day.
To me a biblical hope is a theological expectation of a certainty.
Another is the hope I had when in the Garden of the God's in Colorado I was standing on a very big rock which was balanced on a comparatively very small footing.
I hoped that it would not move which was a reasonable assurance that it would stay put while I was standing on it.
Otherwise I would not have gotten up on it at all.
So is there another hope that such things as that rock could somehow experience?
I doubt it, but who knows?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Well, yes but only to suggest your “cosmic victory” theory. Surely, Paul had a lot more in mind than God is Great? Certainly, Paul’s audience understood the importance of being described as “sons of God.”

Where’s the beef?

On another matter, St. Thomas isn’t channeling Aristotle; you need to explain that one As I see it St. Thomas uses Aristotle to form, as it were, metaphysical algorithms. I suppose next you’ll be accusing St. Augustine of being a reformed sinner.


JoeT

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Too difficult and elaborate to discuss St. Thomas Aquinas in this board. However, I can without any problems affirm that St. Augustine could be considered, to a certain extent, as a reformed sinner. As you probably know, he was educated in North Africa and resisted his mother's pleas to become Christian. He used to live for a long while as a pagan intellectual, and during this period he took a concubine and became a Manichean. It was only later he converted to Catolicism to eventually become a Doctor of the Church.

I therefore think he can be considered a repented sinner.

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue,
There are different understandings of "hope"
Such as I hope you have a good nights rest.
I'm about ready to hit the hay for another day.
To me a biblical hope is a theological expectation of a certainty.
Another is the hope I had when in the Garden of the God's in Colorado I was standing on a very big rock which was balanced on a comparatively very small footing.
I hoped that it would not move which was a reasonable assurance that it would stay put while I was standing on it.
Otherwise I would not have gotten up on it at all.
So is there another hope that such things as that rock could somehow experience?
I doubt it, but who knows?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Fred, you are of course absolutely right to suggest that it would sound just really odd to speak of a rock having hope. I wonder if the way to think of it is not that this rock has hope and that river has hope, but rather that creation, taken organically as a whole, has hope. Paul uses organic language with great frequency, and he may have been thinking not of the individual things that make-up creation having hope but of creation, considered in its entirety, as having hope.

I don't think that this distinction puts the matter to rest by a long-shot. I just realized that my last post was more than a little unclear. My apologies for that.

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Originally Posted by gromitt82

Too difficult and elaborate to discuss St. Thomas Aquinas in this board. However, I can without any problems affirm that St. Augustine could be considered, to a certain extent, as a reformed sinner. As you probably know, he was educated in North Africa and resisted his mother's pleas to become Christian. He used to live for a long while as a pagan intellectual, and during this period he took a concubine and became a Manichean. It was only later he converted to Catholicism to eventually become a Doctor of the Church.

I therefore think he can be considered a repented sinner.

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Sorry about that gromitt82. The statement was intended as a joke; it wasn’t meant to be taken literally. I agree with you whole heartedly; no doubt, Augustine was a reformed sinner.

I guess I should give up trying to be humorous – obviously I don’t have the talent.

JoeT

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I guess I should give up trying to be humorous

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I really wish you wouldn't.

And, for what it's worth, I happen to think you do a good job. I know I certainly enjoy stealing from you! If you stop, I'm going to have to rely only on my own imagination to come up with new material. Trust me, nobody wants that.

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Sorry about that gromitt82. The statement was intended as a joke; it wasn’t meant to be taken literally. I agree with you whole heartedly; no doubt, Augustine was a reformed sinner.

I guess I should give up trying to be humorous – obviously I don’t have the talent.

JoeT

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I'm sorry. I misunderstood you! It is not you do not have the talent to be humorous! I would rather say it is little old me who does not understand full well Shakespeare's beautiful language. Which should not surprise me for my mother language is Spanish...
Therefore, I most humbly apologize!:D:D

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Romans 8.19-22

a) How do you understand this passage?
b) What does this tell us about redemption?
I have heard it said that Christ came to save human beings and only human beings. But this passage seems to suggest that Christ's redemption is not reserved only for humanity but for the whole of creation. Is that true? If it is true, from what does creation (apart from humanity) need to be redeemed and how is it to receive its redemption?
c) What exactly is it that "creation awaits with eager expectation"? Why is "all creation groaning" and for what?
d) What, if anything, does this passage tell us about Christ's mission?

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Akoue:

Have we discussed all the issues listed above? Have we gnawed this thread down to the one question of ‘cosmic victory’? Are you prepared to defend the meat the ‘cosmic victory’ theory; or should we dispense with all the remaining issues first (if there are any)?

JoeT

PS. To all: when you get sick from all the corny jokes, just remember you had your chance!

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Originally Posted by Akoue

.... where the creation as a whole suffers in something like the way the whole body suffers when it's infected with a nasty disease.

Just a thought. I wouldn't want to have to defend it... yet.

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I also like Joe's contribution. And Jake's.

But I like the way you put this.

To sort of correlate it to what I said, I would say that sin is the disease and Satan is the bug which carried that disease into the universe.

I guess that begs the question, how are animals, who have no souls and inanimate objects which have no life, affected by sin?

I would say, physically.

If we read the book of Job, we see that Satan has some physical control over nature. It is he, I believe, who has introduced "chaos" into God's order.

The sin is not nature's. It is his. And because of his sin, he corrupts and subjects all which is within his power.

Unfortunately, Adam and Eve, gave themselves, and subsequently us, into his power. Otherwise, he would not be able to touch us.

Whether he would be able to tempt us, I don't know. I'm not sure that if Adam and Eve had passed their test, whether their children would not also be tested. It appears to me that every Angel was tested, so why wouldn't every soul?

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Akoue:

Have we discussed all the issues listed above? Have we gnawed this thread down to the one question of ‘cosmic victory’? Are you prepared to defend the meat the ‘cosmic victory’ theory; or should we dispense with all the remaining issues first (if there are any)?

JoeT

PS. To all: when you get sick from all the corny jokes, just remember you had your chance!

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I'm sick of ethanol.:p

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I'm sick of ethanol.:p

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Well, OK! How about Tennessee Whiskey anybody? You know old Jack went into his office one day in 1911 and tried to open the safe. He couldn’t recall the combination; so, frustrated he kicked the safe. He died shortly afterwards of a broken toe – or was it blood poisoning! And the moral of this real life story; if you bruise the bottle you wake up with a hangover, abuse the safe and you wake up dead!


JoeT

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I also like Joe's contribution. And Jake's.

But I like the way you put this.

To sort of correlate it to what I said, I would say that sin is the disease and Satan is the bug which carried that disease into the universe.

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This makes sense. And like a virus, sin propagates itself. So there is a sense in which we can speak of it having a sort of agency.

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I guess that begs the question, how are animals, who have no souls and inanimate objects which have no life, affected by sin?

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I confess I'm not quite sure what to make of the idea that animals don't have souls. Certainly the Fathers, and St. Thomas as well, hold that where there is life there is a soul. An animal's soul is not the same as a human soul, since ours is in the image of the Holy Trinity. But I would want to say that animals are not without souls.

In fact, we know that many animals have an interior psychological life that is quite rich. I mention this, because it would seem to me that sin can affect them in many of the ways it affects us (though, of course, not all).

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I would say, physically.

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Definitely. They suffer for the crimes that we commit. Well, and Satan too, of course. (Makes me think we should be more humane in our treatment of them.)

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If we read the book of Job, we see that Satan has some physical control over nature. It is he, I believe, who has introduced "chaos" into God's order.

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Good point. The Fathers often associate good with order and evil with disorder. The "chaos" that we find in creation is a disorder in both senses: It is a lack of order or a diminishment of harmony and it is a disorder in the sense of a disease.

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The sin is not nature's. It is his. And because of his sin, he corrupts and subjects all which is within his power.

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Yes. Otherwise, Manicheeism.

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Unfortunately, Adam and Eve, gave themselves, and subsequently us, into his power. Otherwise, he would not be able to touch us.

Whether he would be able to tempt us, I don't know. I'm not sure that if Adam and Eve had passed their test, whether their children would not also be tested. It appears to me that every Angel was tested, so why wouldn't every soul?

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I agree with you. I think that where there is free will, that will is subject to test and temptation.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

In addition, I practice the "Presence of God" devotion. From practice of this devotion, I've come to believe that we are never out of God's presence. Not on this earth, not in heaven and not even in hell.

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Sadly, I know very little about this devotion. But I am very intrigued by the notion of being in God's presence even in hell.

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I suggest that this subjection occurred when Satan fell and dragged with him 1/3 of the stars.

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The more I think about this the more I think you're right.

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In other words, then, only by and through hope in God will creation be set free from slavery to corruption, that is from slavery to Satan and sin which he introduced into the world.

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Yes. As well as what goes along with that, that to be far from God is to be, and to feel, imprisoned and bound. Existence then feels like a burden.

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All creation is suffering because of the sin of Satan. Adam introduced sin and death to the human soul. In other words, mortal sin. But we can infer that physical death was already in the world because when God said, "you shall surely die the death". Adam didn't respond, "What's that?"

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Yes, I like this a lot. In your reading of Scripture I have always found you to be very sensitive to its dialogical character. You are well-attuned to the silences. And I think you are right, that Adam's silence tells us something.

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But suffering and death was introduced into creation by Satan. In my opinion.

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Agreed.

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Jesus the Son of man and Son of God conquers all, draws everything to Himself and then returns everything to the Father.

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Exactly right. It calls to mind certain very old icons of Christ Pantocrator which evoke him as the source of unity to which all will return. This is something of which the Cappadocian Fathers, especially Gregory of Nyssa, speak very eloquently, and I believe you have captured the spirit of that with the reading you have offered here.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

....

Exactly right. It calls to mind certain very old icons of Christ Pantocrator which evoke him as the source of unity to which all will return. This is something of which the Cappadocian Fathers, especially Gregory of Nyssa, speak very eloquently, and I believe you have captured the spirit of that with the reading you have offered here.

Thank you.

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No, thank youuuuu!

I've mentioned these things on other forums and been accused of all kinds of heresies.

Its good to finally meet someone who understands what I'm saying.

Thanks again. And thanks to God for bringing you here.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Akoue,
I think you are right.
From now on I will think of "creation, taken organically as a whole, has hope."
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by De Maria

No, thank youuuuu!

I've mentioned these things on other forums and been accused of all kinds of heresies.

Its good to finally meet someone who understands what I'm saying.

Thanks again. And thanks to God for bringing you here.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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I am genuinely astonished that you have been accused of heresy for this. As I mentioned earlier, if you had defended apokatastasis then I could see it, since this was anathematized by the Council of Constantinople. But you have not argued that there is a sort of necessity by which all of creation, including Satan and the fallen angels, will return to the divine Monad. Perhaps talk of return to union with God is enough for some people to jump the gun. And I have known Thomists *of a certain stripe* who would say such things. (A really good Thomist would know better!)

I thank you both for your very kind words and for your participation in this conversation. I hope you'll give me feedback if you find anything in what I've posted to be unclear, mistaken, or misguided. For my part, I'm trying this out on you guys as I work through it for myself, so I am grateful for the time you've invested in helping me as I make my way.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Sadly, I know very little about this devotion.

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Its very simple really. Most of us probably do it subconsciously. Simply "pretend" that God is with you all the time. Your "pretending" is really acknowledging an unseen fact.

You can do this by
1. occasionally glancing in His direction.
2. occasionally asking for advice as you would a friend or simply conversing.
3. continually praying, your favorite devotions or some short prayers (aka ejaculations)

These can be done out loud or mentally (mental prayer).

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But I am very intrigued by the notion of being in God's presence even in hell.

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God is omnipresent. I don't think there are any exceptions to that Divine attribute.

Some Muslims, for instance, claim that Allah does not exist in creation. We don't. We believe that God transcends creation. That means that God is not affected by creation, but He permeates it. We believe that God is not affected by time or space. God is smaller than the smallest piece of matter and greater than all creation.

Have you ever heard anyone ask, "how many angels on the point of a pin?" That's because angels take up no space, so they can all fit on that pinpoint. And God can be right there with them. And yet God is so grand that the entire universe can't contain Him.

Quite a paradox.

When we speak of the Trinity, we say that:
The Father is in the Son but the Father is not the Son.
The Son is in the Father but the Son is not the Father.
The Spirit is in the Father and the Son, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

I believe we can also say that we are in God, but we are not God.
God is in us, but God is not us.

We believe that God is Yahweh, I AM WHO AM. Otherwise interpreted, I AM ALL BEING.

Acts Of Apostles 17 28 For in him we live, and move, and are; as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring.

This is not Pantheism. Pantheism, as I understand it, says that God is the universe.
But we believe God is greater than the universe:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

God created heaven, purgatory and hell. Therefore God is there.

Psalm 138
8 If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present.

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Some say that the same fire that glorifies in heaven, cleanses in purgatory and punishes in hell.
"The day of judgment is coming, to burn like a furnace," Malachi 4, verse 1. chapter 3, verse 2, "the refiners for silver and gold." Hebrews 12, verse 29, tells us that our God is a consuming fire. That's the kind of love He has. It just burns out of control. Our God is madly in love with us. He's madly in love with us. It's sheer madness for the God who owes us nothing, to whom we owe everything but to whom we gave practically nothing. He turns around and gives us everything including himself by becoming one of us and allowing us to kill him. He's madly in love with us, and that mad love is burning out of control and filling this vast universe. It's just that our physical eyes can't see it, but they will some day and our souls will undergo it. And those who have refined their love through self-sacrifice and mortification and penance and charity through the spirit of the foundation which is Christ, but those who have done so are going to enter into that fiery love of God and say, "Oooh, it feels so good! I'm home." And other people are going to look back where they have compromised and taken short cuts; they've done a lot of great things in love and faith and hope. They've even suffered some, but they have taken a lot of short cuts, They are going to enter that fire and say, "Ooh, ooh...," and purgatory is for them.

Now the saints in heaven would freeze in purgatory, and hell fire for the saints in heaven would be like ice, dry ice. Our God is a consuming fire. The periphery of the universe is hell fire. That isn't the hottest. The hottest is what you find when you get closest to God. Out of the nine choirs of angels, the highest are the Seraphim. In Hebrew it means the burning ones. They glow bright because they are consumed with this passionate, fiery love that God has for all eternity for us as His children.
Purgatory: Holy Fire

2 Corinthians 5 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


And Scripture seems to say that being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There seems to be no distinguishing between heaven or hell.

Thoughts?

De Maria,
That's an amazing post.
Talking to God as if He were a friend right there with me is a great idea for He IS.
The rest I must ponder particularly about the fires of heaven and hell.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by De Maria

God is omnipresent. I don't think there are any exceptions to that Divine attribute.

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This is a very interesting point, one that has been uppermost in my thoughts as I've been thinking about Rom.8. I can see how saying this might lead some people to suspect you of holding a view close to that of Meister Eckhart, though from what you have said I wouldn't be one of them. I think that God's omnipresence is both a wonderful object for meditation and, at the same time, rather difficult to frame clearly. At least, it has been for me.

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Some Muslims, for instance, claim that Allah does not exist in creation. We don't. We believe that God transcends creation. That means that God is not affected by creation, but He permeates it. We believe that God is not affected by time or space. God is smaller than the smallest piece of matter and greater than all creation.

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And there is also a pantheistic tradition, represented most notably, I suppose, by Ibn Arabi.

The idea of God permeating creation is especially interesting to me. But, I confess, I'm not sure I entirely understand what you have in mind. Could I ask you to say a little more about the way you think about it?

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Have you ever heard anyone ask, "how many angels on the point of a pin?" That's because angels take up no space, so they can all fit on that pinpoint. And God can be right there with them. And yet God is so grand that the entire universe can't contain Him.

Quite a paradox.

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You're exactly right.

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I believe we can also say that we are in God, but we are not God.
God is in us, but God is not us.

We believe that God is Yahweh, I AM WHO AM. Otherwise interpreted, I AM ALL BEING.

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Right, God is Being. This is interesting to think about in the light of the idea, upheld by many Fathers and Doctors of the Church, that evil is nothingness.

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This is not Pantheism. Pantheism, as I understand it, says that God is the universe.

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I think this is one form, at least, that pantheism can take. In Ibn Arabi's case, he holds that God is *in* everything that exists. He is generally regarded to have been a pantheist. But, if you find that that is consistent with what you are saying, it might well be the case that there is a sense of pantheism that isn't problematic, while others forms of pantheism are. Certainly Meister Eckhart at least flirted with a problematic form of pantheism (although I very much doubt that he did anything more than to flirt with it). But since God sustains all Being, there is a sense in which he must be *in* all things that exist, insofar as they exist. (Oh, man, that last little phrase started to sound like Aquinas. Sorry guys, I may have a disease of the brain!)

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But we believe God is greater than the universe:
[I]"The day of judgment is coming, to burn like a furnace," Malachi 4, verse 1. chapter 3, verse 2, "the refiners for silver and gold." Hebrews 12, verse 29, tells us that our God is a consuming fire. That's the kind of love He has. It just burns out of control. Our God is madly in love with us. He's madly in love with us. It's sheer madness for the God who owes us nothing, to whom we owe everything but to whom we gave practically nothing. He turns around and gives us everything including himself by becoming one of us and allowing us to kill him. He's madly in love with us, and that mad love is burning out of control and filling this vast universe. It's just that our physical eyes can't see it, but they will some day and our souls will undergo it. And those who have refined their love through self-sacrifice and mortification and penance and charity through the spirit of the foundation which is Christ, but those who have done so are going to enter into that fiery love of God and say, "Oooh, it feels so good! I'm home." And other people are going to look back where they have compromised and taken short cuts; they've done a lot of great things in love and faith and hope. They've even suffered some, but they have taken a lot of short cuts, They are going to enter that fire and say, "Ooh, ooh...," and purgatory is for them.

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This is really interesting. Processing... processing... processing...

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Now the saints in heaven would freeze in purgatory, and hell fire for the saints in heaven would be like ice, dry ice. Our God is a consuming fire. The periphery of the universe is hell fire. That isn't the hottest. The hottest is what you find when you get closest to God. Out of the nine choirs of angels, the highest are the Seraphim. In Hebrew it means the burning ones. They glow bright because they are consumed with this passionate, fiery love that God has for all eternity for us as His children.

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Yes, and this is why I say that people often underestimate the transformative experience that is being in God's presence. It isn't a warm-fuzzy in your belly; it is a radical transformation of what you thought you were.

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Originally Posted by arcura

De Maria,
That's an amazing post.

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I forgot to say: Yes, it is. I'm privileged to be able to discuss this with you, with each of you.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

... I confess I'm not quite sure what to make of the idea that animals don't have souls.

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Actually, I agree. But the subject of souls and spirits gets kind of hairy. Especially the terminology used by St. Thomas and the Fathers. Even the writers of the Bible are not consistent in their usage of these terms.

So, I kind of made my own terminology based on this CCC paragraph. I did so, in order to make sense of it for myself.

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

As I understand this then, we are "souls". We don't have souls, we are souls.

We have Spiritual souls, which I abbreviate "spirit". And we have bodies made of matter which I call the "body". The union of the body and the spirit is the soul, which we are.

It stands to reason that animals have "animating" spirits. And it stands to reason that animals have matter which we call "bodies". Therefore the union of their animating spirit and their body, is an animal soul.

But there seems to be a qualitative difference between an animal soul and a human soul. We can see this in nature.

1. An animal is not offended by immodesty. An animal does not hide its sexual organs behind clothes.

We do. Based upon the fact that God clothed Adam and Eve after the Fall, I suspect that the Original Sin was a sin against the reproductive system. A sexual sin.

2. Nor does an animal worship. At least, we have not been able to identify worship in animals. Although some animals (especially elephants) seem to mourn their deceased.

Based upon the dream I had about my dog in heaven, I believe that animal souls do not have the attribute which recognizes its Creator. They know they exist, but they don't know why and they don't care. They are just happy to be alive, whether in this life or the next.

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Certainly the Fathers, and St. Thomas as well, hold that where there is life there is a soul.

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I wasn't aware of that. I've searched for this information and hadn't found any. I thought it didn't exist. Is there any reference you can provide?

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An animal's soul is not the same as a human soul, since ours is in the image of the Holy Trinity. But I would want to say that animals are not without souls.

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I agree.

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In fact, we know that many animals have an interior psychological life that is quite rich. I mention this, because it would seem to me that sin can affect them in many of the ways it affects us (though, of course, not all)...

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I agree. The Scriptures say:
Genesis 9:5 For I will require the blood of your lives at the hand of every beast, and at the hand of man, at the hand of every man, and of his brother, will I require the life of man.

in general, animals fear man. Yet some beasts do attack men. So it would seem that they are acting upon their free will and sinning against God's law.

Curious.

I also see this in my own pet. Our dog knows that he isn't supposed to eat out of the trash. We were recently wondering, "how did he get that out of the trash without spilling it?" He's a veritable Houdini! We suspect that he secretly stands up on two legs, sprouts opposable thumbs and proceeds to sift through the trash to the very bottom, getting just the morsels he wants! And spilling not a drop.

Amazing! I'm thinking about installing a hidden camera.