Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And all the other Church reformers that you mentioned faced the injustices and the same political climate that Luther did? I counter that the injustices and climate in Luther's day were unique.

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Well, St. Teresa was called before the Inquisition. Does that count? The political climate when St. Francis was active was AT LEAST as toxic as when Luther was. St. Catherine was active during the so-called Babylonian Captivity, when the papacy was at Avignon--so, worse than what Luther was facing. Leo the Great faced, among a great many other things, the invasion of Attila. Gregory the Great was contending with the immediate aftermath of the fall of the Roman Empire in the west and constant barbarian invasions, a plague, etc. Luther was writing in an academic backwater.

By all means, make the case that the climate Luther faced was especially bad. For my part, I find it very difficult to see how anyone could make that case. But maybe I'm overlooking something.

EDIT:

This reply was written to your pre-edited post (quoted in full above). If you'd like to know what they reformed, a Wikipedia search will likely get you started. And I'm not sure what you mean by "obstructionist". I'll need you to say a little more about that in order to respond in a useful way.

Wondergirl,

If you're interested in reform movements pre-Luther, there's a nice little paperback by R.W. Southern called Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages. It's cheap and easy to find, and is written by a widely respected medieval historian. It gives important historical perspective to what would come to pass during the Reformation.

Akour,
Excellent post.
Yes there have been several good reformers in Church history.
One of Luther's great faults was lack of humility.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Wondergirl,

If you're interested in reform movements pre-Luther, there's a nice little paperback by R.W. Southern called Western Society and the Church in the Middle Ages. It's cheap and easy to find, and is written by a widely respected medieval historian. It gives important historical perspective to what would come to pass during the Reformation.

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I'm a librarian. I'll find it. Thanks for the recommendation, Akoue.

***ADDED: It's at 1077 llibraries throughout the world including 47 IL university libraries (plus my alma mater).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akoue

he didn't like to be challenged by anyone

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Heck, he was a Scorpio! Ask me about it!

Wondergirl,
A Scorpio??
LOL

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
A Scorpio???
LOL

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November 10th -- same birthday as mine.

Wondergirl,
So you believe in astrology??
Interesting.
I wonder if Luther did.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Luther didn't, and I don't, but read the description of a Scorpio. You will see Luther in it. Scorpiois are teachers, researchers, counselors. That's what I happen to be, and not because I took on those careers in order to satisfy a horoscope.

Read your own horoscope to see if it fits you. Read other horoscopes and find out that they do not fit you.

Wondergirl,
Horrorscopes is what they are to me.
They are so full of generalities that can be made to fit almost anyone.
At one time, years ago, I followed them to my great dismay. Never again.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
Horrorscopes is what they are to me.
They are so full of generalities that can be made to fit almost anyone.
At one time, years ago, I followed them to my great dismay. Never again.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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What's your sign?

Wondergirl,
I was born on February 21, 1933.
Not only the months and dates are important to that way of thinking but also the years and where the planets were at that time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
I was born on February 21, 1933.
Not only the months and dates are important to that way of thinking but also the years and where the planets were at that time.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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The time of birth too.

Wondergirl,
4:40 P.M.
Fred

All:

Speaking of mysticism; I was just reading Hartmann Grisar’s “Luther” who suggested that Luther was influenced by a mysticism. Grisar continues and puts forward that much of Luther’s theology and philosophy was influenced by Nominalism. An example in the mystical tone, “Thy sin; Thou hast accepted what I am and given me what Thou art ; Thou hast thus become what Thou wast not, and what I was not I have received. . . . Never desire," he exhorts him, " a purity so great as to make you cease thinking yourself, nay being, a sinner ; for Christ dwells only in sinners ; He came down from heaven where He dwells in the righteous in order to live also in sinners. If you ponder upon His love, then you will become conscious of His most sweet consolation. What were the use of His death had we to attain to peace of conscience by our own trouble and labour ? Therefore only in Him will you find peace through a trustful despair of yourself and your works." (As quoted by Grisar, Letter of April 8, 1516, " Brief wechsel," 1, p. 29. -De Wette dates it April 7.)

JoeT

Joe,
Now THAT IS interesting.
I always thought that Jesus came for everyone for we are all sinners to some degree.
Some are greater sinners than others and the self-righteous may be numbered among the greatest sinners.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Luther was a nominalist. This isn't at all controversial. Nominalism was ascendant at the time, and Luther was trained by nominalists. Nominalism doesn't have to have unsavory theological consequences, though it has often been developed in ways which conduce to theological error. (It all depends on what's being "nominalized".)

As for mysticism, he was clearly influenced by a strain of later Medieval German mysticism which has its roots in some of Meister Eckhart's sermons. This strain of mysticism was deeply individualistic and so took a deflationary attitude toward ecclesial communion and structure, the sacraments, Tradition, etc. One can also see it in a very vivid way in the so-called Radical Reformation, the generation that was deeply impacted by Luther in Germany and gave birth to, among other things, the Anabaptists.

Akoue
The more posts we have on Luther the more interesting this thread becomes.
Also the more happy I am that I left that denomination many years ago and took the road to Rome and eventually arrived there thanks to the help of several very informative priests.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Akoue
The more posts we have on Luther the more interesting this thread becomes.
Also the more happy I am that I left that denomination many years ago and took the road to Rome and eventually arrived there thanks to the help of several very informative priests.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Knowing there are Lutherans and other Protestants reading this thread, please refrain from adding sentences like your second one. That comment is very disrespectful to non-Catholic Christians and encourages retorts and in-fighting.

Wondergirl ,
I told the truth about me.
I do not hold it disrespectful of any others who do so about themselves. In fact I stick up for them to be able to chose the faith they decided on.
If you find my story disrespectful I'm sorry for you that you do.
That's like the atheists who claim it is disrespectful for a Chrsitian to admit that they are Chrsitians.
But even so I respect the atheists right to be as the choose to be.
Peace and kindness,
Fred