Ask Me Help Desk - God's love is conditional? Doesn't add up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Precisely! So then why all the opinionated and ill-informed people regarding Mary's position? Millions?

You've lost me. I have no idea what you're on about. I'm out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

A simpler example; how much is 2+2. What would keep us from using Doula-Math and decide that all algorithms equal whatever feels good at the time. Let’s say today is a ‘5’ day; thus 2+2=5 according to Doula-Math? Can I conclude from this that if you ask for change of a 5 dollar bill, I can give you two pars of two one dollar bills? Come to think of it I like this. Let’s do some more “relative” math with real money!

There is but one Truth. That truth is absolute. To say that truth is relative to the observer creates absolute pandemonium, both in a theological sense and in nature. To say that God reveals one truth to you and another truth to me is relativism. How many truths do you think there are? There is only one truth, whether or not we are capable of understanding that truth is not material. We know that since God exists is creation demonstrates that truth exists, its immutable, its eternal, it is spiritual, unconstrained by time, and superior to man’s law. From which we can conclude that “not only that truth is in [God], but that [God] is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Prima Q, 15 a5” (see also https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1376851 )

Yes, many faiths hold different truths, and all but one of them is wrong. Whether or not certain Christians hold that Catholicism is not Christian isn’t relevant. I don’t recall reading anywhere in the Scriptures where we are told to take a poll and decide what’s right and what’s wrong. Again, whether you recognize it or not, there is only one truth in faith. You can read my comments as arrogance or haughtiness (and I’m sure it does seem that way – relatively speaking), it still doesn’t alter the truth – truth still remains immutable and absolute. The decision has been made for us by Christ. Christ is the founder on which Peter and the remaining Apostles are the foundation on which the Church is built.

Fr_Chuck and Fred responded to the Mary comment, so I won’t respond here.

Again this is a true statement. Even still, it doesn’t change “Truth”. It remains as it was, as it is, and as it will be; one and the same immutable and absolute truth.

JoeT

Yes, 2+2= 4... as does 3+1... @@+@@... and 1+1+1+1. They are all true, just expressed differently.

Back to my original point, the truth of one person may not be the truth of another. If you were born and raised in a country such as India, for example, you would very likely believe something else to be the truth. Certainly there will be exceptions, but it is likely that most people believe what they do because that is how they were raised.

Of course you feel your beliefs are the truth... as you should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Precisely! So then why all the opinionated and ill-informed people regarding Mary's position? Millions?

Because of the work of many hate groups that work hard on spreading lies about the catholic church for one. The millions of papers, tracts and books they push. And of course since they don't use icons many people are sadly just not educated enough to know the difference. They accept easy to believe myths instead of learning the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Because of the work of many hate groups that work hard on spreading lies about the catholic church for one. The millions of papers, tracts and books they push. And of course since they don't use icons many people are sadly just not educated enough to know the difference. They accept easy to beleive myths instead of learning the truth.

I don't think it has anything much to do with hate groups. It was completely accepted by my Protestant church body when I was growing up that anyone saying the rosary and praying to Mary was, for all intents and purposes, worshipping her. Catholic churches always had statues and paintings of her, more obvious sometimes than those of Jesus. There was/is an entire cult around her -- Mariology it was/is called. Protestants called it Mariolatry.

There was no way to learn the truth except to ask an area priest, and, of course, back in the '50s, no self-respecting Protestant asked questions of a Catholic priest. There just wasn't any kind of fellowship back then. The Protestant Reformers did think that Catholics were wrong to invoke Mary as a mediator or to intervene. The doctrines of Immaculate Conception and Mary's Bodily Assumption into Heaven gave further reason for Protestants to think Mary was considered to be more than just a human, and was close to being a god.

Hate, no. Ignorance, yes. I'm glad churches and denominations and people of various beliefs now feel much more comfortable sharing their ideas and values.

Well what you call common knowledge was taught that way by someone, they either knew better or were talking uneducated, merely many thinking does not make it true.

But in fact there are many groups that publish tracts and give them out by the 1000's every day spreading the lies. And the people will not accept the truth when told, not because they eve know the teachings only because that was what they were taught,

So many churches teach lies about the catholic church, this is not uncommon

But hate, yes there is one publishing group I can think of for sure, they sell and give out 10's of thousands of tracts a day with nothing but hate for catholics and mormons mixed in with some for salvation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

But then you've got all those rewrites and everything, so how reliable could that be even if it was the truth in the beginning?

I don't understand what you are saying - rewrites and everything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

I don't understand what you are saying - rewrites and everything?

You think the text in the bible is in it's original form? What about the different translations, the thousands of years, the different interpretations

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

But hate, yes there is one publishing group I can think of for sure, they sell and give out 10's of thousands of tracts a day with nothing but hate for catholics and mormons mixed in with some for salvation.

Why do so many go to the trouble to spread hate for the catholic church?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

well what you call common knowledge was taught that way by someone, they either knew better or were talking uneducated, merely many thinking does not make it true.

But in fact there are many groups that publish tracts and give them out by the 1000's every day spreading the lies. And the people will not accept the truth when told, not because they eve know the teachings only because that was what they were taught,

So many churches teach lies about the catholic church,, this is not uncommon

Protestant seminaries taught their ministerial students that it was Mariolatry, etc. and when those students became ministers, they carried those ideas into congregations. There was no hate in any of it; that's just how it was. I never heard hate preached.

Wondergirl,
If I asked you to pray to god for me, would you?
"Pray" is another way of saying "ask". Those two words have same meaning.
So if I pray to you to pray for me to God am I worshiping you and equating you to God.
No, of course not.
We Catholics and others ask Many (whom we believe is one of the many saints in heaven) to pray for us. We DO NOT worship her no matter what others may think or say.
The Rosary prayer which has been mentioned here is an example.
In it are the words "pray for us".
There is no worship for Mary in that prayer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
If I asked you to pray to god for me, would you?
"Pray" is another way of saying "ask". Those two words have same meaning.
So if I pray to you to pray for me to God am I worshiping you and equating you to God.
No, of course not.
We Catholics and others ask Many (whom we believe is one of the many saints in heaven) to pray for us. We DO NOT worship her no matter what others may think or say.
The Rosary prayer which has been mentioned here is an example.
In it are the words "pray for us".
There is no worship for Mary in that prayer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Where were you back in 1955, Fred? (My posts were all past tense, not 2009 thinking.)

Wondergirl,
I was here on earth in 1955.
Why do you ask?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
I was here on earth in 1955.
Why do you ask?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I wasn't talking about NOW, Fred, but about earlier thinking among Protestants.

Never mind

Akoue,
I was a Lutheran for over 30 years.
Now you know why I started looking into other faiths including the Catholic.
So much hate made me wonder why when some of my best friends were Catholic or others and they were very nice people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcura

Wondergirl,
If I asked you to pray to god for me, would you?
"Pray" is another way of saying "ask". Those two words have same meaning.
So if I pray to you to pray for me to God am I worshiping you and equating you to God.
No, of course not.
We Catholics and others ask Many (whom we believe is one of the many saints in heaven) to pray for us. We DO NOT worship her no matter what others may think or say.
The Rosary prayer which has been mentioned here is an example.
In it are the words "pray for us".
There is no worship for Mary in that prayer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Why would you want Mary to pray for you when you can just pray directly to God yourself? What is the point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozyk

Why would you want Mary to pray for you when you can just pray directly to God yourself? What is the point?

Christians believe prayer is a powerful thing, and, the more prayer there is for you or for something, the more hopeful they are God will intervene somehow. That's why you will hear people say, especially during an illness or a family tragedy, "Pray for me" or "Keep me in your prayers."

In fact, I read somewhere recently that people who are prayed for have faster and better recoveries. Would have to check that...

cozyk,
Mary the mother of Jesus has more influence than I do.
I also pray to Jesus and God the trinity.
I have also asked other saints to pray for me.
Saints are at the throne of God in heaven.
Therefore they are holy, pure and closer to God than I am.
Asking saints to pray for us is part of the communion of saints.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Wondergirl,
Yes that is true.
The more payer the better.
Peace and kindness,
Fred