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Originally Posted by asking

Evolution of the dog.

Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Dog

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Same comments as before regarding the horse.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

There are many assumptions here, one of which is what Akoue and I already discussed and that is the unproven belief that similarity in DNA proves that one evolved from the other. It doesn't.



It is interesting that you raise the fossil record, because right from Darwein himself, through to today, we have scientists who will tell you that the fossil record is one of the biggest problems for the theory of evolution.

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Both of these statements are inaccurate and misleading in several ways.

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Originally Posted by asking

Both of these statements are inaccurate and misleading in several ways.

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Ah, an accusation without validation. Like evolution without evidence.:D

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Same comments as before regarding the horse.

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So wolves aren't part of the genetic ancestry of modern dogs? That's what you mean to say?

Thanks very much for the explanations.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

Fred,
You are very welcome.
Just Asking

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Same comments as before regarding the horse.

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You don't believe different breeds of dogs are related to one another or descended from wolves?

Do you believe that chihuahuas were specially created?

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Originally Posted by asking

You don't believe different breeds of dogs are related to one another or descended from wolves?

Do you believe that chihuahuas were specially created?

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They are all varieties of dogs. I said many times that micro-evolution is well-established - I have seen no one argue against micro-evolution, ever. Micro-evolution is not proof of macro-evolution.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

They are all varieties of dogs. I said many times that micro-evolution is well-established.

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Just to be clear: So you believe that wolves are a variety of dog? Same species? If so, please justify that claim. If not, do you deny that dogs are descended from wolves?

Akoue,
Very Good question.
Of course I believe that some dogs descended from wolves.
The same for from Foxes.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Just to be clear: So you believe that wolves are a variety of dog? Same species? If so, please justify that claim.

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"Canidae (IPA: /ˈkænədiː/, ′kanə′dē) is the biological family of the dogs; a member of this family is called a canid. They include wolves, foxes, coyotes, and jackals."
(Source: Canidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
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In addition, around here there are laws against people keeping wolf and domestic dog cross-breeds.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

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Canidae (IPA: /?kæn?di?/, ?kan??d?) is the biological family of the dogs; a member of this family is called a canid. They include wolves, foxes, coyotes, and jackals.
(Source: Canidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
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In addition, around here there are laws against people keeping wolf and domestic dog cross-breeds.

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Yes, that's nice. I was asking about species, not family.

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Originally Posted by Akoue

Yes, that's nice. I was asking about species, not family.

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I said that they were varieties of dog and they are. They can interbreed with other types of dogs and produce viable offspring. They are dogs. I know of no credible biologist who would deny this fact.

Not all dog breeds can interbreed with other dog breeds.

If you subscribe to the biological species concept (which says that a species is a population of mutually interbreeding individuals that cannot successfully breed with other such populations), then humans have successfully bred new species in the form of certain dog breeds. Certainly, by their looks alone, most dogs would be recognized as different species if they were found in the wild or the fossil record. If you don't accept the biological species concept, Tj3, then you need to bring your own definition (BOD) of species to the table and adhere to it. What do you think a species is?

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Originally Posted by asking

Not all dog breeds can interbreed with other dog breeds.

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A St. Bernard would have trouble physically breeding with a chihuahua - there may be humans who have the same physical problems. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the fact that a wolf is a dog and recognized as such and can interbreed with other dogs.

Do you deny that fact despite the fact that this is widely known and recognized amongst biologists?

Asking,
Good post.
Good questions,
Fred

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Originally Posted by Tj3

A St. Bernard would have trouble physically breeding with a chihuahua - there may be humans who have the same physical problems. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the fact that a wolf is a dog and recognized as such and can interbreed with other dogs.

Do you deny that fact despite the fact that this is widely known and recognized amongst biologists?

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A wolf can interbreed with a dog. It can also interbreed with a coyote. Are you saying that a wolf and a coyote and a dog are all the same species? I would not accept that as a "fact." Even the southern red wolf, which is a population descended from a hybrid cross between coyotes and wolves, is protected under the endangered species act.

I was myself referring to beagles and Irish setters, which can barely interbreed, but not for physical reasons. This is what I'm discussing. These two breeds of dogs are "reproductively isolated." By the usual definition, that makes them separate species. They were bred by humans and so it would be accurate to say that we have witnessed the creation of new species.

Science Netlinks: Science Updates

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That said, he's found that there are certain combinations of dogs that don't cross-breed easily: for example, beagles and Irish setters.

Acland:
These were dogs with family lines, where they routinely produce big litters, and yet when we tried to breed these fertile beagles to fertile setters, we got no pups at all, despite many attempts to do so, and then eventually, we were able to produce one litter with two pups in it.

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Originally Posted by asking

A wolf can interbreed with a dog. It can also interbreed with a coyote. Are you saying that a wolf and a coyote and a dog are all the same species?

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They are all dogs.

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I would not accept that as a "fact."

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Well then you are out of step with the overwhelming majority of dog experts and biologists.

It is odd that when you speak of evolution, you suggest that whatever you believe that the majority of biologists believe to be true must be held to be true by others, with or without evidence, but when it comes to this, which disagrees with your position, you reject the standard position held by biologists.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

a wolf is a dog and recognized as such .

Do you deny that fact despite the fact that this is widely known and recognized amongst biologists?

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Interesting. Could you provide references to some of those biologists who claim that wolves and dogs are the same species? (Not genus, but species.) That would be helpful. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

They are all dogs.



Well then you are out of step with the overwhelming majority of dog experts and biologists.

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This is interesting too, since I spoke with a biologist (who is also a dog expert and professor at a veterinary college) and have been told that what you say is not true. So some references would be really helpful.