It's commonsense that mary was a human, and when she birthed another
Human, her nature didn't change. She didn't become divine... there's
No scripture that shows mary as some type of angel or goddess, just
Another human being. I think her and jesus' humanity is what trips up
Peoples' understanding of how jesus could possibly be anything other
Than a normal human being. The question of the trinity also arises,
Because jesus was born without a human father. Mary had a human father and mother. But jesus was different. So what made him different? I believe
That god worked his will through jesus so intimately, that jesus could
Draw on this miraculous power, at will. I believe jesus experienced this
Power from both within and without. My reasoning is because jesus was
Directed by god from within. And the forces without were dealing with
Food and weather, and water. This internal walk was perfected in jesus,
And mary could only be like us, waiting for what we can only hope, like paul says, in the future, when we'll see what god meant for us to be.
So mary was like us, and died like we will. I'm sure mary was a very
Good christian, but that's as far as her godliness went.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I’m sure it must seem that way. But, the point is exactly where that “FINAL authority” rests. What we do know is that that authority can’t lie in a book, especially in a book that makes no claim to be “the final” or “the ultimate” authority.

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You have that right, except we don't need the catholic church, a pastor,
Or any other to tell us how to interpret scripture. And since you stated
It can't lie in a book, then it must come from god himself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

At the moment God was infused, and conceived, Mary’s Womb would have been spiritually clean; as clean as the ritual cleansing of the Tabernacle of Moses. Thus Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of God, a Holy of Holies. This Tabernacle would have remained pure as did Mary in her of life celibacy.
Thus we hold Mary was Ever Virgin and Mother of Mercy
JoeT

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OK, let me try this tack: how would mary's womb have been any
Purer than other women's wombs? Lol, it's not what goes into
A man that defiles him, it's what comes out. In other words,
Mary was still the same spiritual person she was even after
She conceived. She didn't all of a sudden 'level up' in her
Walk with god.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

it's commonsense that mary was a human, and when she birthed another
human, her nature didn't change. she didn't become divine... there's
no scripture that shows mary as some type of angel or goddess, just
another human being.

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That Mary became divine was never said or implied. Nor is Mary an angel or goddess. But she is a Saint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

i think her and jesus' humanity is what trips up
peoples' understanding of how jesus could possibly be anything other
than a normal human being. the question of the trinity also arises,
because jesus was born without a human father. mary had a human father and mother. but jesus was different. so what made him different? i believe
that god worked his will through jesus so intimately, that jesus could
draw on this miraculous power, at will. i believe jesus experienced this
power from both within and without.

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I don’t think “God worked through Jesus” because Christ was fully man and fully God. Wavering from His humanity to His Divinity or favoring His divinity or his humanity leads us into conflict with the Triune.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

my reasoning is because jesus was
directed by god from within. and the forces without were dealing with
food and weather, and water. this internal walk was perfected in jesus,
and mary could only be like us, wating for what we can only hope, like paul says, in the future, when we'll see what god meant for us to be.

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But, this was the point. God suffered humanity out of his goodness so we might live: He was buried to raise us up. For when our Lord suffered, His humanity suffered, that which He had like man; and He dissolves the sufferings of him who is His like, and by dying He has destroyed death…He is the resurrection and the salvation of all; He is the Guide of the erring, the Shepherd of men who have been set free, the life of the dead, the charioteer of the cherubim, the standard-bearer of the angels, and the King of kings, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen Alexander of Alexandria, Epistles on Arianism

Do you not agree?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

so mary was like us, and died like we will. i'm sure mary was a very
good christian, but that's as far as her godliness went.

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No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.

JoeT

How do you get this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, ...on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19)

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Out of this:

1Cr 6:19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? And ye are not your own;
1Cr 6:20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

I don’t think “God worked through Jesus” because Christ was fully man and fully God. Wavering from His humanity to His Divinity or favoring His divinity or his humanity leads us into conflict with the Triune.

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No, it actually meshes well with the 'triune'. See, the power that jesus
Used upon the earth, was not used by other people, such as he used it.
He kept referring to the father, and he used the power of god (if you
Believe his miracles), so god was definitely living in him, and working
His power through jesus. You have to remember, it was flesh god was
Doing his will through. The holy spirit of god was the power of god
Working through the flesh. So you can see that you cannot take away
Jesus' flesh, spirit(he was alive), and god's spirit(working miracles).
This 'triune' interpretation works for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

But, this was the point. God suffered humanity out of his goodness so we might live: He was buried to raise us up. For when our Lord suffered, His humanity suffered, that which He had like man; and He dissolves the sufferings of him who is His like, and by dying He has destroyed death…He is the resurrection and the salvation of all; He is the Guide of the erring, the Shepherd of men who have been set free, the life of the dead, the charioteer of the cherubim, the standard-bearer of the angels, and the King of kings, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen Alexander of Alexandria, Epistles on Arianism
Do you not agree?

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Yes, but I don't see your point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.
JoeT

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She couldn't be protected from sin. Jesus had not died yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

No, Mary wasn’t entirely like us. Catholics hold that she was immaculate; thereby supernaturally protected from original sin.

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Your denomination may hold to that, and you have the perfect right to believe as you wish - but it is not found in scripture.

Nor have you said if you believe that God was conceived in Mary.

Tj3,
Yes, the bible says that THE CHURCH is your authority, but I know from your many posts that you do not believe much of what the bibles says, such as that Mary is the mother of God the Son and that the consecrated bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus Christs.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

you have that right, except we don't need the catholic church, a pastor,
or any other to tell us how to interpret scripture. and since you stated
it can't lie in a book, then it must come from god himself.

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Men of good conscience do, and sometimes often, disagree on the meaning of Scripture. Therefore, if men of faith, good morals, and ethics can disagree while reading essentially from the same Scripture. Thus, receiving their understanding direct from the book through God himself (presumably the Holy Spirit) then why do you and I disagree? Why isn't the Spirit of God teaching each of us the same thing? Why then do we have 30,000 different Christian Churches when Christ prayed “And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are… That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them: that, they may be one, as we also are one. 23 I in them, and thou in me: that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.” (John 17)

Are we all theologians, specialists in Greek, Latin and other dead languages? If not, then how are we to discern which is the Truth and which is not? Therefore, rightly, The teaching authority of the Church, promised to you and me by Christ, fills this role as commissioned by Christ.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

Tj3,
Yes, the bible says that THE CHURCH is your authority, but I know from your many posts that you do not believe much of what the bibles says, such as that Mary is the mother of God the Son and that the consecrated bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus Christs.

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I believe the Bible when it says that those who believed that Jesus spoke of eating literal flesh were those who betrayed Him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

no, it actually meshes well with the 'triune'. see, the power that jesus
used upon the earth, was not used by other people, such as he used it.
he kept refering to the father, and he used the power of god (if you
believe his miracles), so god was definitely living in him, and working
his power through jesus. you have to remember, it was flesh god was
doing his will through.

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Not, God was living in Him. God was Him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cogs

the holy spirit of god was the power of god
working through the flesh. so you can see that you cannot take away
jesus' flesh, spirit(he was alive), and god's spirit(working miracles).
this 'triune' interpretation works for me.

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God doesn't need the power of god to do His work. I don't know if you're catching on or not. But, Christ was all man, all God.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Are we all theologians, specialists in Greek, Latin and other dead languages? If not, then are we to discern which is the Truth and which is not? Therefore, rightly, The teaching authority of the Church, promised to you and I by Christ, fills this role as commissioned by Christ.

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The important question is - what is the church? Denominations formed starting 325AD (such as yours), or the word of God (the Bible) and the body of Christ (the body of all believers regardless of what denomination they belong to).

I accept the latter because no denominations are mentioned in scripture and jesus did not speak of delegating anything to any denomination.

Nor does scripture say that God was conceived in Mary.

JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.
It, The Church, has been diligently doing it's appointed Job "feed my sheep" for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

The important question is - what is the church? Denominations formed starting 325AD (such as yours), or the word of God (the Bible) and the body of Christ (the body of all believers regardless of what denomination they belong to).

I accept the latter because no denominations are mentioned in scripture and jesus did not speak of delegating anything to any denomination.

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I’m going to get clobbered for getting so far off this thread when De Maria logs back on. So, I’m going to pass on this, except to say you know I disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Nor does scripture say that God was conceived in Mary.

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Oh, but it does. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1: 31-33)

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.
It, The Church, has been diligently doing it's appointed Job "feed my sheep" for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

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Yes Fred exacatly! Feed my lambs... feed my lambs... feed my sheep.

Why do you suppose it goes: feed lambs, feed lambs, feed sheep? What's the significance?

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arcura

JoeT777,
Yes, that IS the reason Jesus did establish an earthly authority to exist after he ascended to the Father in heaven.

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My Jesus is still here. As God, He is omnipresent. Sorry to hear about yours.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

My Jesus is still here. As God, He is omnipresent. Sorry to hear about yours.

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He sits at the right hand of the Father. He left so that the Holy Spirit could come. Do you recall which verse that was?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Oh, but it does. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Luke 1: 31-33)

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Back to my question - if I were to use your faulty logic syllogism, I would come up with this:

Jesus is God.
Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Therefore God was conceived in Mary.

Do you believe that God was conceived?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Back to my question - if I were to use your faulty logic syllogism, I would come up with this:

Jesus is God.
Jesus was conceived in Mary.
Therefore God was conceived in Mary.

Do you believe that God was conceived?

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Repeating my first response: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. "

This is what I believe - if you'll notice it starts with "I believe."

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JoeT777

Repeating my first response: "I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. "

This is what I beleive - if you'll notice it starts with "I believe."

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Still avoiding the question which is - was God conceived.

I find it humorous how you are avoiding this question. But I know why. You dare not answer because it would open up all sorts of problems which you'd rather not deal with.