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Yell tell me... I never said he had a "need" of temptation.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
We just have different understanding of what "divine" means and on the nature of Christ.Quote:
to make my point more clear: if jesus was god, then temptation would have had no effect on him. However, since jesus was man, his flesh was working against him, just as it is in us... he had to deal with the physical body. So what does it mean for him to be all god and all man, when temptation arises?
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Scripture says it does.
Sincerely,
De Maria
None.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Two things.
First thing. As someone on this forum so effectively said in another thread, "There is temptation and there is temptation."
What is the difference?
Well, lets take a nice juicy slice of cantaloupe for example. I imagine that sounds pretty tempting to many folks. BUT NOT FOR ME. I hate cantaloupe.
So, if someone TEMPTS me with cantaloupe. I'm not the least bit tempted.
Understand?
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.
Second. Satan tempted Jesus so that Jesus could overcome the temptation and give us a model to follow. Jesus is our model:
Matthew 8 22 But Jesus said to him: Follow me, and let the dead bury their dead.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Maybe to you, taken out of context. Let's look at the passage in contextQuote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to
God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went
and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the
Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV
We see three things discussed here:
1) Noah's Ark and its role in saving people through the flood
2) Water baptism
3) The gospel and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This passage relates these three items by showing how they relate. First Peter speaks the death of Christ on the cross, setting the focus for the passage. As a result of this passage, we know that the focus of the verses that follow are regarding the death of Christ on the cross for our sins.
This death for our sins is then compared, to the flood, with the flood discussed as a symbolic “type” or comparison to salvation which come through the cross of Christ. Then we are told that there is an anti-type, baptism. I often hear the argument that an “anti-type” is the opposite of a type, or as one person recently said, an anti-type being the opposite of a type is “reality”. Unfortunately that argument is not “reality” because in Greek and similar languages, “anti-” often does not mean “opposite” as we understand it in English, but rather means a replacement or a contrast. Thus when we are told about one type, and then we are told that there is an anti-type, what we see here is a contrasting type of the death on the cross.
an·ti·type n.
- One that is foreshadowed by or identified with an earlier symbol or type, such as a figure in the New Testament who has a counterpart in the Old Testament.
- An opposite or contrasting type.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin
Company. All rights reserved.
This understanding also agrees with what Paul said in Romans 6 where he identifies baptism as a “likeness” or symbolic of the death and resurrection on the cross:
Rom 6:3-7
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized
into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just
as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death,
certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old
man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should
no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV
In discussions with proponents of baptismal regeneration, they will often just read out
Romans 6:3 and then stop before you get to the verse which describes baptism as a “likeness” of the death and resurrection of Christ. So we find that Romans 6 and 1 Peter 3 are telling us the same thing – baptism is symbolic.
Now with that in mind, let's look at the verse which you referenced:
1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh,
NKJV
The contrasting types, the ark, which saved Noah and family through the water, and baptism which saves us in the water - as a type. A "type" simply means symbolic, and thus is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Christ through we we are in fact saved.
Now, let's look at the wider context:
1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to
NKJV
Salvation came by Christ suffering on the cross for our sins and then we are made alive by the Spirit. Scripture says that there is one baptism, and it is not a baptism that replaces the blood with water, or replaces the spirit with water, but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Note that by stating that it is water baptism that is essential, what we are in effect being told is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not essential, and that they choose water to replace the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Consider the implications.
1 Peter 3:21
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.
NKJV
Note that it is water that removes the filth of the flesh, but the water is symbolic of the salvation on the cross. Also note that the substances which cleanses, is the answer of a good conscience towards God. We see a similar reference in Hebrews 9
This passage is very clear regarding the symbolic nature of the various rituals. The reference here to ritual washings is the same word used elsewhere in the New Testament
Where it is translated as “baptism”.
Heb 9:11-15
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more
perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood
of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all,
having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of
a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 1 4 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this
reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV
We see confirmation here that it is not the water that cleanses, but the blood of Christ sacrificed on the cross.
Heb 4:15-16Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
NKJV
De maria, is it possible for us to overcome temptation like jesus did? If yes, then why do we need jesus? Can't we just say no?
It depends upon whether you are saved. As Paul said, before you are saved, you have the sin nature and are slaves to sin. After you are saved and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you have been freed from slavery to sin. It does not mean that we don't slip from time to time, but we are no longer enslaved to sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
Rom 6:4-14
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
NKJV
OK, I'll just say that I need the holy spirit to stop sinning, because he shows me my sin. If I wasn't shown where I'm sinning, I wouldn't know what not to do. I think this is the problem today: people have no idea what sin is, so they go around with a cloud of guilt for not doing something. And/or someone tells them what they're doing wrong, as if they know what god wants. Preachers say to stop sinning, but they provide no 'how', or no direction to turn to stop. Who knows what god wants, except god himself. So my point is that we can only stop sinning through the work of the holy spirit in us. Jesus sent his spirit, and he had a reason for doing so.
You only gave the "if yes" option. Did you not consider "if no"?Quote:
Originally Posted by cogs
The answer is no.
All is grace. We can't overcome temptation without the Grace of God. The grace of God flows to us through Jesus sacrifice on the Cross.
You might ask, "what about the Jews?" Jesus had not yet been sacrificed. How could they overcome temptation if Jesus did not yet die on the Cross?
It is simple. Jesus sacrifice transcends time and space. It is an eternal sacrifice which Jesus offers in heaven. That is why the Catholic Church does not sacrifice Jesus again and again in the Mass as many anti-Catholics allege. The eternal sacrifice of Jesus happened only once but is applied to all human beings who accept God's love throughout human history.
617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."
Our participation in Christ's sacrifice
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]",454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457
Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven.458
Galatians 6 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
Sincerely,
De Maria
What is that grace? Is it just god saying, 'hey, I forgive you. Now go stop sinning.'? Is not jesus' work ongoing? Why would he send his spirit to us, unless that spirit had something in us to accomplish? We are not left as orphans, to stop sinning on our own. Jesus came to set the captives free, and we are slaves to sin, if we sin, which we do at times. The holy spirit is the purifyer of our spirit. This is spiritual baptism, cause we start to become transformed. We are reborn, to begin to spiritually mature. The seed for rebirth, is the word of god, which is not the bible or scriptures. It's god's word, through the holy spirit. If it happens to sound like the bible, at least it's god repeating himself. And to what end? Aren't we supposed to enter the kingdom of god at some time? When does this happen? Perhaps when we have put on the robes of righteousness, and are purified by jesus? Then we're free from sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by ?
Allege? Who is it that you claim is the sacrifice in every mass?Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
It is the Blood of Jesus, that washes away our sin; not water. Water has been here since the world began, if water was all that was needed why did Jesus have to die on the Cross for the sins of the whole world. If water was all that was needed everyone would be saved, for at one time or another we have all been in water.
Baptism is a 'symbol' of His death and resurrection, a public display that one has accepted the work of the cross, the sacrifice of the Lamb and has made Jesus the Lord of their lives.
Jesus was indeed tempted, and we can resist sin the way He did.
He said 'take no thought saying…' sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.
God can also speak to us in our thought life, also in an audible voice or though his word or other people. God does know our thoughts and sometimes thoughts can be prayers.
Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)
How else is one to take the Word of God? It is our spirit that is born again; the old man passes away…behold all things become new again.
Church traditions: the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect. Sorry I do not remember the chapter and verse now…perhaps someone could provide.
Originally Posted by De Maria
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.
How can you tempt someone and they not be tempted? That is what it means to tempt someone. Jesus came in the flesh; he was a man. He was the Word made flesh. God sent His Word and healed them.
Well, to be clear, the Church teaches that it is by BOTH means that one can be justified/born again:Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
"The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism.. "
(CCC #1987)
Which church?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
I'm speaking of the Catholic Church in this case... sorry I wasn't clear on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
It would be best to be clear that that is only the teaching of your denomionation to avoid mis-understandings.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
The eternal sacrifice is Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Apocalypse 5 6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth.
Or was the Lamb of God slain over and over again in heaven?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Excellent! You two are great! I think an interplay amongst Catholics would be great on this forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottRC
You are correct Scott, it does take both. But, for instance, in the case of an infant, whose faith are we talking about?
And in the case of a convert, whose faith are we speaking of at Baptism?
Sincerely,
De Maria
That's awesome. I can honestly say that I never thought about it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
That is why Scripture also says:
1 Peter 3 21 Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also:
And explains why Scripture also says:
Mark 16 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
In other words, faith alone does not save you:
James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.
In other words, a person who claims to believe but is not baptized really doesn't believe. So it is the work of baptism which justifies that man:
James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
Wonderful! What source are you referring to?Quote:
The waters of Baptism put to death the old person of sin and gave birth to the new person in Christ. How does a Person become a Catholic. Page 5
The sprinkling with water, which may replace the penitenial rite, reminds us of how we accepted the Lord at Baptism, turning from sin. Thirty Questions about the Mass. Page 16
At baptism I became your child robed in the white gown of your love and friendship and began the adventure of learning about and loving you. Mini-meditations for Morning Prayer, page 21
Sincerely,
De Maria
Correct. Water is the sign of what is happening in our soul.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsila1777
694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit's action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As "by one Spirit we were all baptized," so we are also "made to drink of one Spirit." Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.
Who said that "water was all that was needed"? First, Jesus sanctified the water by permitting Himself to be baptized:Quote:
Water has been here since the world began, if water was all that was needed why did Jesus have to die on the Cross for the sins of the whole world. If water was all that was needed everyone would be saved, for at one time or another we have all been in water.
Matt 3 14 But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Then Jesus explained that without being born again of water and spirit, one could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven:
John 3 5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
And then Jesus was Crucified for our sins and from His side poured out the water and blood which would wash us of our sins:
John 19 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.
True. But it is an effective symbol which accomplishes what it symbolizes. First, we are born again into the family of God. In other words, we become brothers in Christ. Sons of the Father:Quote:
Baptism is a 'symbol' of His death and resurrection, a public display that one has accepted the work of the cross, the sacrifice of the Lamb and has made Jesus the Lord of their lives.
Hebrews 12 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons.
In addition, the water symbolizes the washing of the dirt from our skin as the Holy Spirit is washing the sin from our souls:
Acts Of Apostles 22 16 And now why tarriest thou? Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, invoking his name.
So, the water symbolizes for our eyes, the Spiritual truths with which we are blessed in our souls.
Actually, you can. I've done it before. Its called a Freudian slip. When out of your mouth comes what you really believe rather than what you intend to say.Quote:
Jesus was indeed tempted, and we can resist sin the way He did.
He said ‘take no thought saying…’ sin first comes as a thought; we can cancel that thought with the word of God. You cannot think one thing while saying another. Try it. You cannot do it. I do not know if the devil spoke to Jesus in an audible voice or not, but the way the devil speaks to us is in our thought life.
But I think the point you are trying to make is that if you keep your mind on God you will not as easily be tempted. That is true. But we don't have to remember Scripture for that result. We pray. The Rosary is an excellent meditation on the life of Christ which keeps one anchored to God.
Excellent! I said that above. And you've confirmed it.Quote:
God can also speak to us in our thought life, also in an audible voice or though his word or other people. God does know our thoughts and sometimes thoughts can be prayers.
Correct. We certainly don't go back in our mom's womb and come back out physically.Quote:
Fundamentalists (those who take the Bible literally) would point out that born again would mean being born of the spirit. (John 3:5)
How else is one to take the Word of God? It is our spirit that is born again; the old man passes away…behold all things become new again.
No need. That is true. But Scripture also says:Quote:
Church traditions: the traditions of man make the Word of God of no effect. Sorry I do not remember the chapter and verse now…perhaps someone could provide.
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
Obviously then, some Traditions are of God and do not make the Word of God of no effect. In fact, these Traditions, since they are of God, are actually the Word of God.
1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.
As I said before. I don't like cantaloupe. So, if you tempt me with cantaloupe, I won't be very tempted.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
So, although Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus wasn't tempted.
How can you tempt someone and they not be tempted? That is what it means to tempt someone. Jesus came in the flesh; he was a man. He was the Word made flesh. God sent His Word and healed them.
On the other hand, I love chocolate. But I'm borderline diabetic. So I have to watch my sweets. However, if you tempt me with chocolate, it is very likely I will be overcome by temptation.
Now, Jesus is God and perfect man. So when Satan tempted Him to commit sin, it was as though someone were tempting me with cantaloupe.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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