Ask Me Help Desk - Purgatory - just how long is it?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Except that in the verses we've discussed, faith implies a working faith. If works do not accompany faith, then the faith is dead:

Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works, then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith.

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works, then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith.

Perfect!! You have now joined works to faith and it is no longer faith alone. Read in James:
James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

And also:

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Perfect!!! You have now joined works to faith and it is no longer faith alone. Read in James:
James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

And also:

James 2 18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without works; and I will show thee, by works, my faith.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Why do you always act like someone just came around to your way of thinking whenever that is what they believed all along but you didn't take what they said that way because you are busy putting the Catholic spin on it?
Toms NEVER said or suggested it is faith alone! He has always said that faith PRODUCES works.
I think if you could set aside the Catholic teachings for awhile and just discuss Bible more you would see that Tom does believe some of the same ways as you do on SOME things.
It is not his finally coming around in his thinking.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Isn't that your burden to prove? Not that the rich man is in "hades" temporarily but that he is in "hades" permanently.

Since the Church Fathers you referenced seem to be using the terminology "hades", isn't it imperative that you prove that they don't mean the abode of the dead but the abode of the damned?

In addition, since the topic of this discussion is "Purgatory". Shouldn't you first prove that the Church Fathers did not believe in the concept of Purgatory, whether or not, they used that word to describe it?

The Roots of Purgatory
The Roots of Purgatory

Great thinking! I love the logic. You realize however, that it is you who are the Sola Scripturist and I the one who believes in Scripture and Tradition.

Therefore, since the rest of the verses are about a faithful son of Abraham who is suffering in fire for his sins of ommission, I infer that it is Purgatory.

So, it is you must prove FROM SCRIPTURE. Not I. Follow?

Thanks. I agree. Except I am absolutely certain there is not.

Wrong. In a parable, the protagonists are unnamed because they are symbolic of truths being expressed.

But this is a narrative. The protagonist is named. And Church tradition tells us the name of the other person. His name is Dies.

Therefore, again, although you are stuck searching for truth in the Scriptures alone. Tradition helps me to fill in the gaps.

Here you are displaying an unreasonable attitude displayed by Protestants against the Pharisees. Because of your Sola Scripturist attitude, you actually believe that all Pharisees went to hell.

But not all Pharisees were abusing their position. Certainly a significant number were, but not all.

You are correct. But these are teachings. They have to be written in black and white because one must generalize from them.

Now, let me ask you. Have you ever walked past a poor man without giving him something to eat or drink?

I know that I have. And I know that many in this United States have done so. Does that mean we will go to hell?

On the other hand, even Jesus said, "Mark 14 7 For the poor you have always with you: and whensoever you will, you may do them good: but me you have not always."

So, there is really not enough information in this narrative in order to condemn the Rich Man eternally. Do you know if he is a faithful husband? A faifhful and loving son to his father and moter? A good citizen paying his taxes and dues? Yet if this man fails in feeding one poor man, is he condemned to eternal damnation? Does that sound fair to you?

It doesn't sound fair to me and to be perfectly honest, I will probably have the same destiny as the Rich Man. Since I fare sumptuously everyday and yet I'm aware of much starvation throughout the world.

So, if you are correct, I am already condemned to eternal fire. Where do you stand? Have you helped everyone that you can help? Or have you also ignored the poverty at your doorstep?

Your logic doesn't follow. When you anger your father, do you cease to call him father? When you anger your mother, do you thereby cease to be her son? When you sin against God, do you then deny His Fatherhood?

Obviously, like all humans in distress, Dives is calling out to those he thinks love him and will have compassion on him. This is not what one would expect of any soul in perdition.

No. I'm not simply skimming. I'm reading. However your logic is faulty. As I said, the word in that verse is already modified. It is clear that it refers to those human spirits which were disobedient during the time of the flood.

I must modify what your words slightly in order to agree with them:

I am claiming that Noah's contemporaries which were described as "some time incredulous" were in an imperfect state of God's grace and friendship. That is precisely why they were in prison and not in eternal damnation.

Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"

It seems manifest to me. I don't even understand how you can question that it isn't a reward.

Perhaps if you compare to this parable. For the sake of brevity, please read Matt 20:1-16.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Nicely done – very logical response to the points. Have you ever noticed that the only way to prove Sola Scriptura with logic is to read the Scripture with Catholic discipline? And, it seems to me that the more rigorous the discipline is rooted in our love for Christ, the more logical it becomes. Now that’s grace at work!

JoeT

To Rob, (Rharden),

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Where exactly did you see me practicing , as you call it, "esegesis?"

Perhaps that is too strong a word. I'm sorry. But I certainly believe that your exegesis is in error.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

Perfect!!! You have now joined works to faith and it is no longer faith alone. Read in James:
James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

Do you even read what is written? If you had, you could not possibly have mis-represented what I said so badly.

Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you even read what is written? If you had, you could not possibly have mis-represented what I said so badly.

Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

I didn't misrepresent what you said. I simply clarified for all concerned, the illogical idea you presented.

Here's what you said:

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Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works,

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

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then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith

.

Then you claimed that the works which made the faith perfect had nothing to do with our salvation. That is plainly illogical and contradicts Scripture:

James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Why do you always act like someone just came around to your way of thinking whenever that is what they believed all along but you didn't take what they said that way because you are busy putting the Catholic spin on it?
Toms NEVER said or suggested it is faith alone! He has always said that faith PRODUCES works.

But Tom says that works have nothing to do with salvation.

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See message #644
Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

That is what faith alone means.

We, Catholics believe we are justified by faith and works. In fact, according to James, we are justified by works.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

And that is correct because faith itself is a work:

John 6 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

That is what we are discussing. The difference between the Protestant doctrine of faith alone and the Catholic doctrine of faith and works.

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I think if you could set aside the Catholic teachings for awhile and just discuss Bible more you would see that Tom does believe some of the same ways as you do on SOME things.

This isn't one of them.

Where do you stand? Do you believe we are saved by faith alone?

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It is not his finally coming around in his thinking.

Nor did I think he had. I was merely celebrating because he made an error in logic and I could use it to highlight the Catholic doctrine.

You may not realize that TJ and I have had these discussions long before you came to the forum. I'm pretty certain that TJ won't be convinced by my arguments. I simply reiterate my statements for the edification of those who might be reading our discussion.

Sincerely,

De Maria

NO it is not illogical. Works DO NOT save they are a reflection of your faith.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I didn't misrepresent what you said. I simply clarified for all concerned, the illogical idea you presented.

Weasel words for claiming the right to mis-represent.

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Here's what you said:

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

No I didn't. See? You mis-represent me again. I ew-iterated what scripture says - the evidence of faith is being faithful, and the result of that is works.

Works is the evidence that you have faith.

Now, I would suggest that you worry about defending your position rather than telling others what they think. You are having enough problems with the former.:D

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Originally Posted by Tj3

Weasel words for claiming the right to mis-represent.

Sticks and stones...

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No I didn't. See? You mis-represent me again. I ew-iterated what scripture says - the evidence of faith is being faithful, and the result of that is works.

No, I quoted your words. Look at my message. Then I highlighted how illogical was the idea you presented. Here I'll copy it into this message:

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Here's what you said:
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Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works,

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

Quote:
Then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith
.

Then you claimed that the works which made the faith perfect had nothing to do with our salvation. That is plainly illogical and contradicts Scripture:

James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

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Works is the evidence that you have faith.

Good! Now follow that logic.

First you said that:
Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation

Now you are saying that works are the evidence of faith. See above.

Logically speaking then, if a faith without works is not faith. And we are saved by faith alone. Then a saving faith is faith which is accompanied by works. Therefore we are saved by faith and works.

So, if you say that works play no part in our salvation, you are contradicting yourself and Scripture.

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Now, I would suggest that you worry about defending your position rather than telling others what they think. You are having enough problems with the former.:D

Nah. You're floundering. There is no way for you to come out of this logical quagmire which you've created.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

NO it is not illogical. works DO NOT save they are a reflection of your faith.

I know you don't want to believe me because you're prejudiced against the Catholic Church. But if you don't want to believe me, at least believe Scripture.

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

NO I am not prejudice against the Catholic church that is your assumption.

Can you post which post that is of Toms that you just quoted because it looks like you have two completely different quotes mixed together.

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that
Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you??

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Sticks and stones...

I said nothing about you, but rather your behaviour is mis-representing what I said.

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No, I quoted your words.

You quoted and then mis-represented. I saw it. Other people are more respectful - quote and then discuss what I really said.

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Now you are saying that works are the evidence of faith.

This is what I said from the start. Of course there who cannot deal with the truth who will claim otherwise - but cannot find quotes where I said any such thing.

Can you not handle the truth?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I know you don't want to believe me because you're prejudiced against the Catholic Church. But if you don't want to believe me, at least believe Scripture.

Stay off the ad hominems and deal with the issue.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

NO I am not prejudice against the Catholic church that is your assumption.

My assumption is based on the content of your messages.

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Can you post which post that is of Toms that you just quoted because it looks like you have two completely different quotes mixed together.

Is this the one you mean:
See message #644

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Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

Its one quote from one message.

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ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you??

They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:

Isaias 6 6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you even read what is written? If you had, you could not possibly have mis-represented what I said so badly.

Works plays no part in salvation. Works is the result of faith and salvation.

How does that look like this??

Here's what you said:
Quote:
Exactly - that is the point. If we are not being faithful by our works,

First you admitted that a faith without works is not a saving faith.

Quote:
Then do we truly have faith? It is not the works that save, if you read the Greek, but it is works that are an indicator of the faith
.

Then you claimed that the works which made the faith perfect had nothing to do with our salvation. That is plainly illogical and contradicts Scripture:

James 2 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Quote:

Originally Posted by De Maria

They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:

Isaias 6 6 And one of the seraphims flew to me, and in his hand was a live coal, which he had taken with the tongs off the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth, and said: Behold this hath touched thy lips, and thy iniquities shall be taken away, and thy sin shall be cleansed.

Quite a story! It would be much better if you could actually validate the following claims using scripture:

1) That purgatory exists
2) That we are saved in the mythical place called purgatory
3) That we are not saved and perfected solely by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
4) that we can get out of the place of eternal fire.

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you??

De Marie:
They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:

So you are saying we go through TWO fires. One that burns our works and THEN one that burns our sins.

How do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is after the Judgment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you????

De Marie:
They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:

So you are saying we go through TWO fires. One that burns our works and THEN one that burns our sins.

How do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is after the Judgment?

Good questions!