No, I'm not judging, but am collecting data and reporting.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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No, I'm not judging, but am collecting data and reporting.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
What do you mean by judging?
Not loving.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That’s not what judging means. It generally means to develop an opinion or reach a conclusion. But if you want to use unloving, then that’s fine. When have I been unloving?
A positive or negative opinion or conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Are you really trying to say you have never reached a positive or negative conclusion???
That has nothing to do with this discussion.
We were searching for a definition of the word judgment.
No, you said that the word "judging" meant, "a positive or negative opinion or conclusion." So going on YOUR definition, you have judged as much as anyone here. And as I said earlier, to judge is necessary for living.
No, we were not working on "judgement". YOU were looking for a definition of "judging". I already knew what it meant. You first said, "Not loving", and then you said what I quoted above. You are quite confused.Quote:
We were searching for a definition of the word judgment.
A perfect example of judging.Quote:
That has nothing to do with this discussion.
What you think of as easy is just your being manipulated by child psychology. It's very effective with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Your demand that "Scripture" is required to prove or support any Biblical analysis puts you at the level of a fifth or sixth grader. That level is fine for children who need to grow into a mature approach as part of achieving adulthood. That is the primary reason you are unable to recognize the accuracy of the points above that you so anxiously disapprove of.Quote:
1. Matthew 25 was somehow tampered with "centuries" after it was written to include references to judgment. There is no reason at all to believe such a thing.
2. The greek word "ainiosis" should not be translated as "eternal". There is no support for that, either, other than for the one instance of Robert Young's views from more than 150 years ago. All major translations and every Greek lexicon I have looked at all support the translation of "eternal". ................the Vulgate...........talking snakes......... "subjective".....
I know you've been unnerved in these conversations. That's obvious in many of your replies. I'm truly sorry about that. Growth is never easy. But a small crack in that wall you've constructed around yourself is a good thing. Growth begins with baby steps.
I have yet to see him do so.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
How does God judge them? I don't know, that's not my department.
Then why is JL judging them and sending them to hell?
Most people would have tried to at least make one compelling argument in answer to my statements. It just demonstrates that you don't seem to have any. And yeah, any discussion of the Bible does require...the Bible.Quote:
What you think of as easy is just your being manipulated by child psychology. It's very effective with you.
Your demand that "Scripture" is required to prove or support any Biblical analysis puts you at the level of a fifth or sixth grader. That level is fine for children who need to grow into a mature approach as part of achieving adulthood. That is the primary reason you are unable to recognize the accuracy of the points above that you so anxiously disapprove of.
I know you've been unnerved in these conversations. That's obvious in many of your replies. I'm truly sorry about that. Growth is never easy. But a small crack in that wall you've constructed around yourself is a good thing. Growth begins with baby steps.
I've been looking back over my calendar to see when the last time was I sent someone to hell. I don't seem to have any notes about that event, but I'll look more tomorrow!Quote:
Then why is JL judging them and sending them to hell?
Will Jews and Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus and Buddhists go to heaven?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
See what Ephesians 2 says. Acts 4:12. 1 Timothy 2:5. John 14:6. John 8:24. Rom. 10:9. John 20:31. Acts 2:38. Rom. 3:21,22. Mt. 7:21-23. Heb. 5:9. Gal. 2:16. Acts 10:43.
I keep adding them lest you fall back on the silly plea of "cherry-picking".
John 17:3. John 12:36. John 3:16. Mt. 7:13. John 1:12.
More loving people I have never met! Jesus says, "Love one another," and they do!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Amazing how you just blissfully ignore such a tidal wave of scripture. Not even Jesus speaking can change your stubborn mind. "No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins." If you don't tell them what Jesus said, then you have no love for them.
Jesus said to love, and my experience with many of them is that they do. Wonderful coworkers and friends! And many have made an effort to stay in touch with me.
"No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins." If you don't tell them what Jesus said, then you have no love for them.
You must come to grips with the words of Jesus. Reject them, and you reject Him.
He said considerably more than that. JL has given you a good amount of it.Quote:
Jesus said to love, and my experience with many of them is that they do. Wonderful coworkers and friends! And many have made an effort to stay in touch with me.
Heaven will definitely offer some surprises! I so much look forward to it!Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
You know what WG meant. When you look, see how often you have supported hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Since he arrived here, Jl has supported the notion of an eternal hell for sinners and unbelievers. He obviously has not personally done the judging and sending, but his support is the next best thing. I trust your remark takes that into consideration.
Typically, you have misconstrued my words. Of course, any discussion of the Bible requires...the Bible. My point (obvious) is that discussion is not limited to a literal reading of the Bible, as has been done here more times than I can count. Modern tools of examining and understanding the Bible cannot be ignored, as you have consistently done. That leads you to talking snakes, et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Waiting for Jl's answer in plain language. He will probably do his Bible thing instead with misleading quotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Instead of all your quotes massed together, why not explain each one showing how they supported hell. I randomly looked at a few and not one supported the idea of hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Amazing how you can blissfully ignore that your quote has nothing to do with the topic - the existence of an eternal torture chamber.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
More threats from a loving Christian.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
None of it supporting his contention re the topic of hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
How's this for a Bible quote - it's from John 25 and shows Jesus saying, "Though I have been speaking figuratively..." Blows much of what Jesus has said right out of the literal water.
I have consistently pointed out the teaching of the Bible. To say I've "supported" it is foolishness. God does not need my support.Quote:
Since he arrived here, Jl has supported the notion of an eternal hell for sinners and unbelievers. He obviously has not personally done the judging and sending, but his support is the next best thing. I trust your remark takes that into consideration.
"Modern tools"? That one made me laugh. It's what people say when, like you, they have nothing in scripture to support their unbelief.
As to scriptures about judgment and hell, I posted fifty of them one time, and you rejected them all since they don't support your preconceived ideas.
Won't work. He was speaking of a particular narrative he was using in John 16. He was not speaking of everything he had said up to that time. Is this an example of your "modern tools"? So to say His statement, for instance, in John 8 is not to be taken literally is nonsense. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is "he"?Quote:
"Though I have been speaking figuratively..."
As to WG and her good, loving Sikh, etc. friends, you need to read the first three chapters of Romans. No one is accepted by God on the basis of his/her good works or supposed goodness. Mt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’(In other words, they had many good works JL)23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ You have basically accepted the idea of loving others since that appeals to you, and yet you completely ignore virtually everything else, and then have imagined that a day is coming when Jesus will say, "Oh well, you ignored most of what I said because you didn't like it, but come on in anyway."
What do you think he meant by saying, "Away from me?"
You support your own literal interpretation of the Bible. How else explain your belief in a talking snake? Yes, yes, God can do anything. That's about lame a reason as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No, it's what people use when they attempt to understand a 2,000 year old document. The tools are many and you should be aware of them if you wish to credibly discuss the Bible.Quote:
"Modern tools"? That one made me laugh. It's what people say when, like you, they have nothing in scripture to support their unbelief.
Every single one you posted was based on a faulty reading which I took pains to point out to you. I cannot be held responsible for your limitations. My ideas are never preconceived. They are the result of discovering the pertinent facts.Quote:
As to scriptures about judgment and hell, I posted fifty of them one time, and you rejected them all since they don't support your preconceived ideas.
Of course, it works. John has Jesus saying the very thing that I have been telling you for two years - that the Bible contains figures of speech. Here in this passage, Jesus himself says the same thing. He does not mean EVERYTHING in the Bible. But it is fairly easy to discover when he speaks figuratively.Quote:
Won't work. He was speaking of a particular narrative he was using in John 16. He was not speaking of everything he had said up to that time.
No, it is an example of reading the words as written. Couldn't be simpler.Quote:
Is this an example of your "modern tools"?
You're up to your old tricks again - deflecting. NOWHERE in your quote does Jesus refer to an eternal punishment in hell.Quote:
So to say His statement, for instance, in John 8 is not to be taken literally is nonsense. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Wrong again. The real question is, have you placed your faith in the literal Bible instead of Jesus? You get a resounding YES.Quote:
So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is "he"?
As I predicted, you couldn't answer WG's question in plain language in your own words. You had to quote the Bible. Answering whether Sikhs and Buddhists, etc., etc. go to hell is too fearful a question even for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
At one level, you're revolted by the answer as any normal human would be. So you put the onus on the Bible.
On another level, you are experiencing a deep schadenfreude that you are probably not proud of, but luxuriate in it anyway.
On the Last Day, Jesus will say to Jews and Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, "You've loved others unconditionally just as I have. You have been kind and giving without expecting anything in return. Come into my heaven and let's enjoy eternity together!"
Chapter and verse, please.Quote:
On the Last Day, Jesus will say to Jews and Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, "You've loved others unconditionally just as I have. You have been kind and giving without expecting anything in return. Come into my heaven and let's enjoy eternity together!"
Be loving now. It all boils down to thatQuote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Plan to be there! Look me up -- I'll be in the celestial kitchen!
DW asked, "Chapter and verse, please." Instead, he just got more opinion.
I just have this funny idea that telling someone what the Bible says is a far better answer than just giving my opinion. You should try it.Quote:
As I predicted, you couldn't answer WG's question in plain language in your own words. You had to quote the Bible.
No one has argued that the Bible does not contain figures of speech.Quote:
Of course, it works. John has Jesus saying the very thing that I have been telling you for two years - that the Bible contains figures of speech.
Exactly as I said, he is not referring to all parts of the Bible. The problem is that you use a very slippery method of determining what is literal/figurative. Any clear, plain statement that does not agree with your preconceived ideas just has to be figurative.Quote:
Here in this passage, Jesus himself says the same thing. He does not mean EVERYTHING in the Bible. But it is fairly easy to discover when he speaks figuratively.
We finally agree on something. So when you read these words as written, how do they read to you?Quote:
No, it is an example of reading the words as written. Couldn't be simpler.
"No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."
Why didn't you answer this question? "So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is 'he'?"
The famous psychologist Albert Ellis warned, "Don't should on yourself!"Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Should is a judgment. And as such that word holds us back in our lives.
So you're saying I should follow your counsel and the advice of Ellis?
Only if you want to stop shoulding on yourself and others.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Do you really believe Sikhs and Buddhists etc., will not go to heaven because it's not wrtten in the Bible?Quote:
fm WG
On the Last Day, Jesus will say to Jews and Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, "You've loved others unconditionally just as I have. You have been kind and giving without expecting anything in return. Come into my heaven and let's enjoy eternity together!"
Fm DW
Chapter and verse, please.
Say it ain't so, DW!
I don't, so I'll just ignore it, especially considering that you are violating your own advice.
So in heaven there will be only 683 or so Christian white males -- plus a bunch of Hebrew guys who were in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Your idea is indeed a funny one - even an uninformed one. You have a brain given you by God, use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You have consistently argued that Biblical figures of speech are literal. See Genesis.Quote:
No one has argued that the Bible does not contain figures of speech.
Define that "very slippery method". If you can.Quote:
The problem is that you use a very slippery method of determining what is literal/figurative.
Wrong. Again. I have no preconceived ideas. My ideas come from my God-given brain - just like yours. The difference is mine come from reflection and much thought. Yours are knee-jerk exhibiting an absence of thought.Quote:
Any clear, plain statement that does not agree with your preconceived ideas just has to be figurative.
Read my lips. THERE IS NO MENTION OF AN ETERNAL HELL IN THOSE WORDS!!!Quote:
when you read these words as written, how do they read to you?"No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."
Your question has nothing to do with the topic of hell. I improved on it anyway by asking you, have you placed your faith in the literal Bible instead of Jesus? You get a resounding YES.Quote:
Why didn't you answer this question? "So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is 'he'?"
Before you crucify me for not answering your question as you always do, recall that I told you more than once that your questions are designed to find what you consider positions that you disagree with so that you can swoop down and throw your typical condemnatory spear at the person. We know you too well here, Jl.
So says you, WG?Quote:
So in heaven there will be only 683 or so Christian white males -- plus a bunch of Hebrew guys who were in the Bible.
Some yes, and some no.Quote:
You have consistently argued that Biblical figures of speech are literal. See Genesis.
Why are you running from answering this question?Why are you running from answering this question?Quote:
when you read these words as written, how do they read to you?"No man comes to the Father but by me." "I said, therefore, to you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye may not believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins."
Quote:
Why didn't you answer this question? "So the real question is, have you placed your faith in Christ? Do you believe that Jesus is 'he'?"
Nope. That's the message I've been getting from your posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Still waiting.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
Chapter and verse, please.
Be loving now. It all boils down to that
Plan to be there! Look me up -- I'll be in the celestial kitchen!
I'm not saying anything. I'm mainly asking questions.Quote:
fm WG
On the Last Day, Jesus will say to Jews and Sikhs and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists, "You've loved others unconditionally just as I have. You have been kind and giving without expecting anything in return. Come into my heaven and let's enjoy eternity together!"
Fm DW
Chapter and verse, please.
Do you really believe Sikhs and Buddhists etc., will not go to heaven because it's not wrtten in the Bible?
Say it ain't so, DW!
I have no idea where this number came from.Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
I don't, so I'll just ignore it, especially considering that you are violating your own advice.
So in heaven there will be only 683 or so Christian white males -- plus a bunch of Hebrew guys who were in the Bible.
Time to speak up, DW.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
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