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It was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, not the tree of good and evil. Big difference!
waltero, your post is full of contradictions. You don't even agree with yourself.
waltero said: How can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good?
WG asks: How then can people who have never heard of God choose to do good and be kind and loving?
This is a good paragraph.Quote:
The Fall occurred because man used his free will to listen to Satan. No longer having free will (as we know it). How can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? We have become sin aka darkness. It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free.
Not so sure about this one. Jesus said, "You are the light of the world". Paul wrote, "that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world."Quote:
We will always be Darkness (we will always be sinners). God does not make us light. Jesus (is that light) gives us light...Light overcomes our darkness. It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person.
Maybe I should rephrase: God Does not change our Darkness into light. He does not turn us into lightQuote:
God does not make us light.
JESUS TOOK OUR SIN SO WE COULD HAVE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
This coming from somebody who believes the Bible is full of them as well.Quote:
waltero, your post is full of contradictions.
We call that Sin!Quote:
WG asks: How then can people who have never heard of God choose to do good and be kind and loving?
Is as Filthy Rags.
We are empty Vessels. We are God-shaped containers made to receive and be filled with God! Full vessels are of no use. Righteous self is a greater hindrance than sinful self.
Well said. It certainly seems to be true.Quote:
Righteous self is a greater hindrance than sinful self.
God does not turn our darkness into light??? "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
So I'm not real sure what you are trying to say.
God does not turn our darkness into light. God looks on us as "if" we are righteous.
If God is light then Darkness is the opposite of light.
It's like God Added to himself.Quote:
who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
Calling Darkness out into the light. and for that we will sing his wonderful praises for all eternity...thank God he lives!
Why are you treating "light" and "righteousness" as though they are synonyms?
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." We don't simply appear to be righteous. We have, and have become, the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile."
"And because of him5 you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption."
"Since, therefore, nwe have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from othe wrath of God."
It leaves no room at all for boasting on our part, but rather a deep and glowing appreciation of all that God has done for us.
Not at all! The Bible has been translated many times. The translators have not always been true to their calling. Plus, the Bible is full of poetry, history, allegories, parables, prophecies -- all of which must be understood in their proper context (e.g., the hills did not literally clap their hands).Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Saying the Bible has been "translated many times" is rather misleading. Some translations do vary in generally minor ways, but that does not alter the reliability of our current translations. The truth is there for those who wish to pursue it.
Nope, I'm not saying that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
BUT, the word "homosexual" was added to the Bible by translators centuries later. For instance, Leviticus 18:22 originally condemned pederasty/pedophilia (not homosexuality).
I edited my post. I'm still not sure what your post about the Bible being translated many times by sometimes dishonest, inefficient, biased, or whatever "not always true to their calling" translators is supposed to mean. Perhaps you can clarify.
Actually, having many English translations is a positive.
Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.Quote:
We don't simply appear to be righteous.
any way you put it - we are darkness/and full of sin. We aren't changed into light. We are hidden in the body of christ Jesus.Quote:
so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
I am a sinner and I can do nothing to change that. But Jesus can, that being the case it is all Jesus.
While living on Earth, I don't know anything about becoming Righteous. I only know of God's righteousness.
Far too many Christians believe they are righteous. I never want to be counted with the Pharisees (they declared themselves righteous), by considering myself righteous. I will leave that up to God. Jesus is righteous, it's not our righteousness we are seeking. We acquire Jesus' Righteousness. God looks on us as "if" we are righteous (not good enough?).
Doesn't your last line heavily work against your idea?
OK. You dropped that line.
I haven't "put it". I have shown you scripture. If Jesus said we are the light of the world, then I can believe Him or believe you. Is that not correct?Quote:
any way you put it
With that I can agree completely.Quote:
it is all Jesus.
For what it's worth, this is how I see it. Jesus is like the sun. He generates His own light by virtue of His glory. We are like the moon. We reflect the light of God onto a dark world. It's not our light, but rather it's His light that shines through us. I can't speak for you, but I am not darkness and full of sin. I still have areas of darkness in my life, and I still have issues with sin, but I wouldn't say I am, "darkness/and full of sin." That is true of sinners, but not of Christians.
"Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.'” John 8:12
We move with the World, we operate as the World, we are sinners waiting to be sanctified.Quote:
I still have areas of darkness in my life, and I still have issues with sin, but I wouldn't say I am, "darkness/and full of sin." That is true of sinners, but not of Christians.
The light of Jesus.
If you have light, then are you in darkness?
If you have the righteousness of Christ, then are you full of sin?
My mistake. go ahead and consider yourself righteous.
We are Darkness shrouded in the Glory of God. We know where we come from! You act as if Darkness is a bad thing?
Darkness, sin, has been conquered...it has no power and is very much irrelevant. Darkness is no longer darkness, sin is no longer sin (for those who are in Christ Jesus) It's okay, you (being darkness) are no longer in the dark, you have the life and the light of Christ in you. If you think of it like that it is all the more amazing! God Added to himself. he brought darkness into the light. Darkness which could have nothing to do with God...and now darkness (which once lived unto death) is a friend of God...don't you get it??? I don't think we fully grasp what God has done for us. That's why I believe once we reach our final destination we will continually praise and sing to God's Glory for all Eternity. Some people might think that would get a little boring but I think it will be made something new every time we sing the same song. Just more and more grateful every time we open our mouths to give him praise.
At the same time, God used Man to defeat Satan.
So darkness is not really darkness and sin is not really sin? I think I see now why you scarcely ever appeal to scripture.
I consider myself to be whatever the Bible says I am.Quote:
go ahead and consider yourself righteous.
With this I agree completely.Quote:
I believe once we reach our final destination we will continually praise and sing to God's Glory for all Eternity. Some people might think that would get a little boring but I think it will be made something new every time we sing the same song. Just more and more grateful every time we open our mouths to give him praise.
I totally disagree. God has bigger and less egotistical plans for us than us just standing as a choir and singing His praises forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
So how much singing do you think will take place? Will you not desire to praise Him endlessly, the one who gave His life for you?
Giving praise to God does not involve only singing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The Problem with the Church is -We don't know who God is, we Don't know who we are.
Even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.Quote:
So darkness is not really darkness and sin is not really sin?
But darkness shall not be dark to thee, and night shall be light as day: the darkness thereof, and the light thereof are alike to thee.And what does the Bible say you are? It tells me I am a sinner. Born in sin. Yet God gives me life, in Jesus. You might think of your actions as being righteous but you remain a sinner. King David nor any of the Prophets (any human that was from God) never thought of themselves as righteous. Jesus even mentioned that he was not perfect. Not forgetting Apostle Paul; Which I am Chief sinner. He didn't say - Which I "was" Chief sinner.Quote:
I consider myself to be whatever the Bible says I am.
I'm totally Okay with singing and giving him praise, for all of eternity!Quote:
Giving praise to God does not involve only singing.
Look at the levitical Priests (we are to be priests)...they did nothing but give service to God. Feel free to think anything you like. King Davids's most desire was to stay in the house of the Lord "always." Anything other than giving praise to God comes from you...there will be no you in Heaven (remember Empty vessal). Although we will still have our Character.
We are to live a song, a song for the Lord. Bible tells us; make a new Song every day. Be assured, God will put a song in your heart that will be everlasting life.
So the Scriptures need to remind us again and again to “sing a new song.” Sing Something New Three Psalms start with precisely these words — Psalms 96, 98, and 149 — “sing to the Lord a new song.” As does Isaiah 42:10 (“sing to the Lord a new song”) and Psalm 33:3 (“sing to him a new song”).
And "service to God" is NOT singing. As I said, "Giving praise to God does not involve only singing."Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
I have absolutely no idea what you mean. Body and soul will be reunited on the Last Day.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
May I ask? Are you a Witness?
Yet again, a direct question goes unanswered.\Quote:
Giving praise to God does not involve only singing.
This. "9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy."Quote:
And what does the Bible say you are?
And this. "For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
And this. "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God."
Agree with this.Quote:
It tells me I am a sinner. Born in sin. Yet God gives me life, in Jesus.
Now you are trying to be clever. That's regrettable. I have never said that. I have said repeatedly that I have the righteousness of Christ, imputed to me by grace. It is all of Him and none of me, and yet given to me to enjoy and rest upon.Quote:
You might think of your actions as being righteous
I assume you mean that Jesus said DAVID was not perfect as opposed to saying JESUS was not perfect. At any rate, do you think God answered this prayer of David?Quote:
King David nor any Profit (any human that was from God) never thought of themselves as righteous. Jesus even mentioned that he was not perfect.
Quote:
"Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Yes. we become righteous in Christ Jesus...we are not Righteous. We should never consider ourselves to be Righteous. That's all I'm saying.Quote:
And what does the Bible say you are?
Not sure if you caught my earlier edited post. Paul Said he "is" Chief Sinner. Jesus mentioned that not even he was perfect.
I don't post Bible references much, because I just read it and don't feel the need to post it just to have others tell me I'm Wrong in my understanding. It's there. It is just as easy for you to look it up.
That's kind of a thing with me. People don't have to search the Scriptures anymore...they can just point to a verse and use it as they wish.
We are just an empty shell, how are we supposed to tell ourselves that we are Righteous? we tell ourselves he is righteous and we hitch our wagon to him. I think we are saying the same thing.
We know who and what we are. Our Sin (body) is covered with the Glory (Jesus) of God. We are clothed with his Righteousness. He no longer sees the sin, it is as if we were Righteous...because we know that it is not us, we are not righteous. Jesus's righteousness is as close as we will ever come to being Righteous. It is not us, it is what we receive from God. God gave us his righteousness. God Bless.
Direct question? Praising God through service is much more than just singing. Service to God is unselfish giving of money and your own abilities to Him and to others, empathy, kind actions toward others..."love one another; as I have loved you" (John 13:34).Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That is equivalent to saying - God's righteousness is much more than just God. Why would you not be happy with simply Praising (singing) about the Glory You have received from God, too God?Quote:
Praising God through service is much more than just singing.
Huh? That makes no sense. There is no equivalency at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You are nothing if not consistent. Still unanswered. Here it is again. I feel certain it will still remain unanswered, but perhaps not. We'll see. "So how much singing do you think will take place? Will you not desire to praise Him endlessly, the one who gave His life for you?"Quote:
Direct question? Praising God through service is much more than just singing. Service to God is unselfish giving of money and your own abilities to Him and to others, empathy, kind actions toward others..."love one another; as I have loved you" (John 13:34).
I would say this that I think you will possibly agree with. I don't think the Bible says we will spend all of our time singing, but I can't imagine anything more satisfying or glorious that praising, loving and worshiping the triune God. I eagerly look forward to it. Christians should all go out with a wonderful smile on our faces as we remember that in just a few more seconds we will see His face and His glory. Wow!!
Are you suggesting that Jesus claimed He was not perfect???Quote:
Paul Said he "is" Chief Sinner. Jesus mentioned that not even he was perfect.
Oh brother. You have become just like WG. You make an assertion which you cannot support, and then you want to tell the other person to find support for you. That's unspeakably cheap. Stir yourself to do your own work.Quote:
I don't post Bible references much, because I just read it and don't feel the need to post it just to have others tell me I'm Wrong in my understanding. It's there. It is just as easy for you to look it up.
God no longer sees our sin because it is gone.
Two more passages for you to ponder.
Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
From Hebrews 8.
For this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 And each person will not teach his fellow citizen,[e]
and each his brother or sister, saying, “Know the Lord,”
because they will all know me,
from the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will forgive their wrongdoing,
and I will never again remember their sins.
OK. One more. "as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." How far is the east from the west? An infinite distance.
Every moment with Him, every second! that we spend giving to and sharing with others (yes, in heaven!!!) will be a song of praise to Him!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
And this begins at the moment of death --
"The topic of near-death experiences has been a widely-debated subject, but scientists are claiming to have discovered that a person's consciousness continues to work after the body has stopped showing signs of life..."
https://popculture.com/trending/news...er-death-died/
Still unanswered. I do admire your consistency, though in this case it is inappropriate, but I appreciate you demonstrating that I know you very well!!
I am all for you and hope you do well.
Asked and answered!!!
So how much singing do you think will take place? Will you not desire to praise Him endlessly, the one who gave His life for you?"
"Every moment with Him, every second!"
I added more while you were busy raking me over the coals. Please return to finish reading Post #110.
Nah. Just your usual evasiveness. Why are liberals so afraid of answering direct questions, and especially in this case? It was a simple question. If it bothers you, then we'll just move on.
That tells me that, that is all it is to you. It's not about how well we can Love.Quote:
Service to God is unselfish giving of money and your own abilities to Him and to others, empathy, kind actions toward others..." love one another; as I have loved you"
It's not in the Sevice it's in the Life. It's not a service that you can live his life. He is living His life in you, you are not to live your life in him.Quote:
Praising God through service
I'm not suggesting. I just read (in the Bible)it. You can find it if you disagree. If I go back and find and post, then you will simply ignore it. is that your position; No, NO! I am not looked upon as if I am righteous...I'm Righteous. Have it your way, I'm okay with that.Quote:
Are you suggesting that Jesus claimed He was not perfect?
I know God looks on Jesus when it comes to my life. We are being transformed into his likeness. We are in the Body of Jesus...he has become sin. So If Paul thought of himself (not past tense) as Chief Sinner, we as Christians are to think of ourselves as Righteous? All because I understand it as; God looks on us as if we are Rightoues. Regarding Abraham, it was credited to him as being righteous.
You understand that your entire argument (that seems to be your thing) is unimportant. it might be important to you, being that you want to be made righteous. So you are made righteous...go tell it to the mountains.
@JL; It seems to be a little harder to find than I would have thought. I was going to look at it to see if I misread it.
Jesus was Talking to his Disciples and said; I have not been made Perfect until I am (can't remember)...indicating having to go through...? I have Bibles placed all around my house. I will have to wait till I go downstairs to see if I can find it. I think it's a few Chapters back from where i left off.
Jesus lives in us and we live in Him. His love for us prompts us to share that love with others.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Do you want to know how much time will be spent singing in the heavenly choir? In heaven, it will be always Now. No measurement of time passing.
I think you're offbase on that one. He is the perfect, flawless, sinless Lamb of God. That has been Christian doctrine for ages. It took a perfect sacrifice to atone for millions of people.Quote:
@JL; It seems to be a little harder to find than I would have thought. I was going to look at it to see if I misread it.
Jesus was Talking to his Disciples and said; I have not been made Perfect until I am (can't remember)...indicating having to go through...? I have Bibles placed all around my house. I will have to wait till I go downstairs to see if I can find it. I think it's a few Chapters back from where i left off.
Jesus said, "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”
Peter said, "who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth."
He also said, "knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."
Paul said, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Hebrews 4:15. "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."
John said, "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."
So frequently it's the conditional, "answerless" answer.Quote:
Do you want to know how much time will be spent singing in the heavenly choir? In heaven, it will be always Now. No measurement of time passing.
I like that. Very true.Quote:
Jesus lives in us and we live in Him. His love for us prompts us to share that love with others.
Yes. Remember it has nothing to do with our love. It is not to be considered a service.Quote:
His love for us prompts us to share that love with others
Just don’t act as if you still live in the sphere of the flesh...Praising God through service is much more than just singing...coming from the flesh?Quote:
Jesus lives in us and we live in Him.
In Christ Jesus, you have been drawn into the order of redemption. There is no part of you that you can hold back for yourself. There is no part of you that belongs to the world.
Walter, I think you are referring to Luke 13:32 where it reads in the KJV, "And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." But the context does not really support that translation, and virtually all other translations render "perfect" as having the meaning of finishing His work at Calvary. It certainly fits the context much better and does not put the passage in disagreement with the rest of the NT, nor the half-dozen passages I noted above.
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