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You are trying to make a case rather than someone seeking to establish the truth- yes?Quote:
It was intended to show the wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians)
In your mind this is 100% true...no doubt what so ever?Quote:
God’s existence cannot be proven with certainty
Athos said: God’s existence cannot be proven with certainty
waltero, please prove God's existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
That's all too easy.Quote:
waltero, please prove God's existence.
GOD says it, I believe it.
Do you mean approaching it with a childlike faith...If you can't do it in faith - if you can't do it in confidence - don't do it!Quote:
wrong approach of evangelicals (and some other Christians).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaM9J2VHLf8
All that [is] not of faith is sin.
God whispered in your ear? "God says it" is not proof. It's faith. Belief is faith, not proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
WG, as far as I can tell you seem to believe in God. Why do you believe?
Why? because He has been with me throughout my life, has loved me and taken care of me and led me into very personally satisfying careers and connections where I am able to, with His guidance and support, help others feel better about themselves and also come to love and thank Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Do you have evidence outside of your own personal experience? Just asking.
I'll even tell you why I ask. If a person can appeal to nothing outside of personal experience, then he/she has no real answer if a second person comes along and says, "I don't believe in God because He has never been with me throughout my life. I don't believe he has loved me and taken care of me. I found very personally satisfying careers and connections completely on my own with no need for his help. I have been able to accomplish many wonderful things in my life all on my own, so I know there is no god and thus I have no need to love or thank Him." Aside from suggesting your own personal experience is somehow more valid or accurate than his or hers, there is no other direction to go in.
Of course I do! My eyes and my mind and my heart have always been wide open to others' experiences and opinions. E.g., my Wiccan trans woman friend says pretty much what you quoted above.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
As I said earlier, I am able to, with His guidance and support, help others feel better about themselves and also come to love and thank Him.
You split an infinitive. I'm reporting you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I went back and changed it from unsplit to split, hoping you would amble past and notice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
WOW - you are one tricky Christian!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Not sure what you are referring to. If you mean the personal experiences of others, then you are still have the same dilemma. Your friend, for instance, if she would say my quote from above, is saying there is no God. So does it all come down to, in your view, personal opinion?Quote:
Of course I do!
So in other words, do you see any reason to believe in God other than the personal experiences and opinions of people?
As I posted earlier, "because He has been with me throughout my life, has loved me and taken care of me and led me into very personally satisfying careers..."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live our lives. Read Psalm 23.
Never mind.
Don't go there!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You don't understand the question. It's OK.
Then restate it in clear English -- simply stated, not convoluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I think is what you meant to say; The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live Gods Word (a Godly life, the life of Jesus)Quote:
The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live our lives.
Your Welcome ;-)
There was nothing not in clear English or "convoluted" the first time, but I will give it another shot. Those are all personal experiences. That's fine, but do you see any evidence for God outside of your personal experiences or the personal experiences of others?Quote:
As I posted earlier, "because He has been with me throughout my life, has loved me and taken care of me and led me into very personally satisfying careers..."
You would refer to this as "cherry-picking" if I had posted it. But if you believe Psalm 23, why don't you believe the words of Jesus in this passage from John 3? "32 He (Jesus) testifies to what he has seen and heard, and yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 The one who has accepted his testimony has affirmed that God is true. 34 For the one whom God sent speaks God’s words, since he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him."Quote:
The promises in the Bible are fulfilled as we live our lives. Read Psalm 23.
If I see it, feel it, taste it, hear it, smell it, it's part of my personal experiences. What else is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I did that on purpose, knowing you'd understand.Quote:
You would refer to this as "cherry-picking" if I had posted it.
I don't???Quote:
But if you believe Psalm 23, why don't you believe the words of Jesus in this passage from John 3? "32 He (Jesus) testifies to what he has seen and heard, and yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 The one who has accepted his testimony has affirmed that God is true. 34 For the one whom God sent speaks God’s words, since he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hands. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him."
Like I said. You don't understand the question.Quote:
If I see it, feel it, taste it, hear it, smell it, it's part of my personal experiences.
You do believe in the wrath of God? Well then, that's quite a change.Quote:
I don't???
Like I said, state it so I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Read the OT.Quote:
You do believe in the wrath of God? Well then, that's quite a change.
Nah. Ponder it until you get it. It's not difficult.Quote:
Like I said, state it so I do.
I'm just glad to see you accept the John 3 passage. That's real progress.
An educator refuses to simplify?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Jesus changes everything regarding God's wrath.Quote:
I'm just glad to see you accept the John 3 passage. That's real progress.
An educator knows where the problem really lies.Quote:
An educator refuses to simplify?
So Jesus changed everything regarding the wrath that same Jesus spoke of in John 3. Got it! In your view, He was lying.Quote:
Jesus changes everything regarding God's wrath.
In my view, He perfectly tells anyone who really wants to understand HOW things changed. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." It is a message repeated over and over again in the NT. You don't accept that because it doesn't agree with the fantasy gospel you have invented to replace the real thing.
And you want all those "others" whom you don't like to go to hell, so you and the other 874 REAL Christians can enjoy heavenly bliss.Quote:
You don't accept that because it doesn't agree with the fantasy gospel you have invented to replace the real thing.
What a silly response. It has nothing to do with what I want. I'm telling you the words of Jesus. First you believe them, but now you don't. It's a very clear passage that you simply have chosen not to believe. You prefer your fantasies.
It has everything to do with what you want. Calling it silly doesn't change the reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Wow - you've sure softened what you used to say - that those who reject Jesus will spend eternity in hell being tortured every moment for all eternity. Kind of sick when you read it that way, isn't it?Quote:
the one who rejects the Son will not see life;
You continue to rant and rave, but you don't disagree with me; you disagree with Jesus. You're not mad at me; you're mad at Jesus. I didn't give you my view, but His very clear statement.
It's not up to me, and my opinions matter no more than your's. Your fantasy gospel has no validity. The true Gospel is the one found in the Bible. If you won't believe Jesus (and clearly you don't), then you will have to believe something else.
This is the consistent testimony of the NT. There are literally dozens of other passages that essentially say the same thing. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who rejects the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him." A person can believe Jesus and the NT, or the person can believe his/her own preconceived notions. Your choice.
Just bear in mind that I'm not telling you anything. I'm just quoting the Bible.
That's the problem in your very own words. You nailed it!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You can't put anything in your own words - you refer the reader to a book. Yet, when others refer you to read a link on the net, you refuse.
No, my argument is not with Jesus - it's with you. You're not man enough to admit it. You want the Bible to do your talking. I've already pointed out your misinterpretation of the Bible. Maybe one of these days, you'll listen. God gave you a brain - use it.
Nah. It’s with Jesus. You don’t believe His words and I'm just quoting Him. For instance, "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
Ah, took you long enough to do the threats. That is what your type of religion loves. Condemning others to an eternity of torture. That is your revenge for your station in life. You can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next life by sending all whom you envy to hell. It's soul-satisfying and very convenient when you gather with other evangelicals of like mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Athos basically wrote, "Dear Jesus, Ah, took you long enough to do the threats. That is what your type of religion loves. Condemning others to an eternity of torture. That is your revenge for your station in life. You can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next life by sending all whom you envy to hell. It's soul-satisfying and very convenient when you gather with other evangelicals of like mind."
You and I just see this differently. You read those statements of Christ, and you seem to think only of hell and judgement, and then you get mad about it. I read them, and I am amazed at the love of God for lost sinners like the two of us. He sent His only Son, the Lord of glory, to take our place so we could have our sins forgiven and walk with God by virtue of having repented and put our faith in the worth and faithfulness of Jesus. It's a glorious message to me, and it's a glorious message to anyone willing to accept it.
Pretty pompous making a rejection of you JL, into a rejection of Jesus!
Ah, right out of the scriptures. Pretty much an exact quote...now your getting it.Quote:
making a rejection of you JL into a rejection of Jesus.
What is it you think you win "in this life"? There are no winners, all is lost. Seek the kingdom of God and get out of here before it is too late. If you don't grab the lifeboat now you will be forever lost in a World without God.Quote:
you can't win in this life
This life, the next life, what are you going on about? There is only "ONE" life.Quote:
so you'll win in the next life
Thank you, thank you, Jl. I can't thank you enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Changing my criticism of YOU into criticism of Jesus is the very best thing you've ever done here to reveal how your mind is so skewed into revenge and hate that every person who ever reads your comment will immediately see what you've done and reject whatever else you have to say.
It's your death knell here, Jl, and you have only yourself to blame. Poetic justice.
We don't accept it on our own--we can accept it only with the Holy Spirit's help. We ourselves, on our own, can only refuse itQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Give it up, Waldo. The conversation here is way over your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
This thread was posted under Christian religion.Quote:
give it up Waldo
You come up with: "you can't win in this life, so you'll win in the next"is life"
Is that "what it means to believe God"?
Leads me to believe, you might have jumped into a subject matter that you don't understand...what are you afraid of?
Waldo, believe me. Have I ever lied to you? This reply of yours above simply emphasizes your being way over your head. If you enjoy playing the fool, then go to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
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