Ask Me Help Desk - A Bible Question

Depends on what I meant as to your being wrong. Sorry I didn't quote you. The inclusion of Revelation wasn't a slam-dunk.

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Jesus wouldn't use the same words today? Well, He wouldn't speak in Aramaic. Other than that, what is your point? Do you think He would now say, "Sorry guys. I got it all wrong 2,000 years ago. There really is no hell, gay marriage is the way to go, and everyone should vote democrat."

I'm sure Jesus wouldn't use the words He did in 30 A.D. And He very likely wouldn't vote either Dem or Repub. He'd start a new party.

His message would not change since His message was the truth. Phrased differently? Perhaps, but not a new message.

Maybe it is YOU who should listen closer to YOUR savior. On judgement day what will you tell your God when you refused to care for the weary stranger that shows up seeking shelter? Or explain why you went along with one that turned them away? I think many will have a lot of explaining to do for judging poorly their fellow men, women, and children.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

His message would not change since His message was the truth. Phrased differently? Perhaps, but not a new message.

I love how you add to what I said. Grrrrr. If Jesus spoke to us today, He would use very different words and terms. Then you'd very likely raise your hand and ask for clarification and wonder why He's using different words and terms.

Yes, what Tal said!!!

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God when you refused to care for the weary stranger that shows up seeking shelter? Or explain why you went along with one that turned them away? I think many will have a lot of explaining to do for judging poorly their fellow men, women, and children.

Talking about judging. How would you possibly know what I have done or refused to do? What a terribly prejudiced statement. And you want to point a finger at Trump?? Having border security is a role of the federal government. Obama did it as well.

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I love how you add to what I said. Grrrrr. If Jesus spoke to us today, He would use very different words and terms.

Not real sure how I added to what you said. I also have no idea how you would know that Jesus would use "very different words and terms," other than He would speak in a different language.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Talking about judging. How would you possibly know what I have done or refused to do? What a terribly prejudiced statement. And you want to point a finger at Trump?? Having border security is a role of the federal government. Obama did it as well.

Maybe I am judging and rather harshly, but how could you possibly be threatened by tired, hungry, and afraid men, women, and children? How could anyone? Is not the characterization of them by the dufus bearing a false witness against them?

Please don't compare what Obama did, like you always try to, to what the dufus is doing, because if you're honest you would see the BIG difference in words, actions and behaviors.

You don't need security, you need food blankets and beds and since we have pictures of them coming and know why, no excuse NOT to be ready and process them humanely. It's just simple basic decency, even though some will not be able to stay. Better yet, stop threatening Mexico, and partner in dealing with this humanitarian crisis.

Yes I'm judging and harshly. If that's not okay, pray for me.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Not real sure how I added to what you said. I also have no idea how you would know that Jesus would use "very different words and terms," other than He would speak in a different language.

Different language from ours? You mean to say Jesus doesn't know English????

You implied I said His message would change in 2019. Back then, He used words and terms His listeners understood and could relate to. Today He would use words and terms WE would understand. (Didn't I say this already???)

Oh well. I was too harsh in my response, so we're even. I've told you before I value your frankness, and I still do. And I will certainly pray for you.

I don't think you can equate border security with refusing to help people in need. I don't honestly know how to help all of those people. It's a great challenge, but just letting them cross the border unchecked is a recipe for disaster.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Oh well. I was too harsh in my response, so we're even. I've told you before I value your frankness, and I still do. And I will certainly pray for you.

Awwwwww! You're sweet! Like we say in NC, "bless his little heart!" (P.S. I'm thanking you.)

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I don't think you can equate border security with refusing to help people in need. I don't honestly know how to help all of those people. It's a great challenge, but just letting them cross the border unchecked is a recipe for disaster.

There's border security that works and there's border security that looks like it works, but doesn't.

How to help refugees and immigrants: every Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Unitarian, agnostic, atheist group in this country should pitch in to help with food, clothing, housing, and job hunting, just like we did during the Tet Offensive.

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Awwwwww! You're sweet! Like we say in NC, "bless his little heart!" (P.S. I'm thanking you.)

Aw shucks.

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there's border security that looks like it works, but doesn't.

Yes. That's what we are using now which is why we need a wall.

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How to help refugees and immigrants: every Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Unitarian, agnostic, atheist group in this country should pitch in to help with food, clothing, housing, and job hunting, just like we did during the Tet Offensive.

You had me until you referred to the Tet Offensive. That was during the Vietnam War. I'm not sure what you are referring to if that's what you meant.

As to Jesus changing His words, if you meant that Jesus would speak in a different language and perhaps use different examples in His parables, then I'm with you on that, though that would seem to be so blindingly obvious that I don't know why it would have needed to be said, but perhaps I'm just completely missing your point.

You growled at me earlier (Grrrr). It alarmed me so much that I had to go to my safe space.

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Back then, He used words and terms His listeners understood

Yet, not even the apostle's knew what he was talking about.

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Today He would use words and terms WE would understand.

How do you figure?

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Maybe it is YOU who should listen closer to YOUR savior.

Jesus is your savior too.

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On judgement day what will you tell your God

Good reason to put ones trust in Jesus, he is interceding on our (His and mine) behalf.

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Or explain why you

It's no longer about 'me' (you). Its all Jesus, Baby!

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I think many will have a lot of explaining to do

Explain away...just know, it will not end good for those that do.

We agree the challenge is enormous but I think the efforts of the volunteers and the churches is the place to start and working as tirelessly as they do is a good example for the government to follow. A humane process is what I've been saying for the longest and if we can have great debts to give the rich it follows we can have great debt to the needy as well. I'm no Christian admittedly, but that in no way means I don't believe in God or the works that follow good orderly direction. That's just my idea of a secure border... helping those that need, and ask for it.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but everybody knows I'm as flawed as they come. Thank you for the prayers.

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Sorry to hijack this thread, but everybody knows I'm as flawed as they come. Thank you for the prayers.

Part of our common humanity. Both of us.

Would a wall prevent people trekking towered the US-Mexico border?
Trekking to the Border is where they suffer the greatest maltreatment.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You had me until you referred to the Tet Offensive. That was during the Vietnam War. I'm not sure what you are referring to if that's what you meant.

You musta not been borned yet. During and after (and maybe even before, as things deteriorated in Viet Nam) churches of various faiths reached out to Vietnamese refugees. My congregation sponsored three families, found homes for them, helped them get settled and find jobs. They all are wonderful people and have become a vital part of Chicago and its suburbs. Many now own their own businesses and were able to send their children to college. I was a sub and volunteer at our Lutheran school and was privileged to tutor our sponsorees in English. one family invited me to their house for afternoon tea where I ate my very first banh mi sandwich.

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As to Jesus changing His words, if you meant that Jesus would speak in a different language and perhaps use different examples in His parables, then I'm with you on that, though that would seem to be so blindingly obvious that I don't know why it would have needed to be said, but perhaps I'm just completely missing your point.

Yes, I thought it went right over your head because you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles.

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You growled at me earlier (Grrrr). It alarmed me so much that I had to go to my safe space.

Ha, ha, you're funny. I'm starting to like you!

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Yes, I thought it went right over your head because you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles.

You cannot claim to believe the teachings of the Bible and then ignore the parts you don't like. It's either true or it's not true. I've elected to believe it is true.

Where in the bible does it say some weary travelers are illegal so must be deported? Sorry man but curious minds want to know which are the true parts and which are the made up stuff by modern ideologues, or intentionally or accidentally misinterpreted.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You cannot claim to believe the teachings of the Bible and then ignore the parts you don't like. It's either true or it's not true. I've elected to believe it is true.

I'm not ignoring the parts I don't like. The Bible is made up of poetry, parables, allegories and many other literary devices, wisdom sayings and proverbs, etc. We know this did not really happen: Isaiah 55:12 "You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands." Did a great fish really swallow Jonah and then spit him out, or is that an allegory? Did Lot's wife really turn into a pillar of salt? Was the Flood worldwide or local? Are we to understand the entire Bible literally, that every word is true?

You're being evasive. " you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles." You're the one who raised the issue.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You're being evasive. " you didn't want to give up the possibility of hellfire licking at human ankles." You're the one who raised the issue.

Nope, hadn't had my first cup of coffee yet. You and I both know that fundamentalist/conservative Christians take the hellfire verses very literally and see it as a heaven-or-hellfire situation. I'm not so sure it's that black or white, whereas from what I've read in your posts, you are sure.

The general rule is to take a verse literally unless there is a genuinely compelling reason not to. The way that Jesus spoke of hell is plainly not intended to be taken figuratively. I might as well say that his references to adultery and murder are merely figurative.

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Did a great fish really swallow Jonah and then spit him out, or is that an allegory? Did Lot's wife really turn into a pillar of salt? Was the Flood worldwide or local? Are we to understand the entire Bible literally, that every word is true?

A person might want to try and read those verses in the Bible Intuitively. Try to Grasp the main flow beyond the imaginable. If you end up getting the right "sensation" out of it, I bet you would have a hard time passing it on to others. They would think you are on "something".

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

The general rule is to take a verse literally unless there is a genuinely compelling reason not to. The way that Jesus spoke of hell is plainly not intended to be taken figuratively. I might as well say that his references to adultery and murder are merely figurative.

Then what is hell?

I would suggest you simply read what Jesus said about hell.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would suggest you simply read what Jesus said about hell.

I want to know your definition of it.

Jesus used words and descriptions his first-century uneducated listeners would understand.

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Jesus used words and descriptions his first-century uneducated listeners would understand.

Then an educated person like you should have no problems at all.

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The conclusion is that the "proposition" that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment is not Biblical.

Even, against the weight of evidence?

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Then what is hell?

The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die.

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Originally Posted by waltero

The Bible describes hell as a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die.

Exactly the images Jesus' 1st-century listeners understood.

Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus.
That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols. We must not think of them as being merely symbols.

If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests.
The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Almost all the biblical teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus.
That Jesus used the most awful symbols imaginable to describe hell is no comfort to those who see them simply as symbols. We must not think of them as being merely symbols.

If these images are indeed symbols, then we must conclude that the reality is worse than the symbol suggests.
The function of symbols is to point beyond themselves to a higher or more intense state of actuality than the symbol itself can contain.

I didn't say a word about symbols.

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Exactly the "images" Jesus' 1st-century listeners understood.

It is not as you think...they understood nothing of what Jesus was talking about...not only because he was talking about Hell (Jews don't believe in hell), but because he is the living God. The people who were closest to Jesus, never understood what he was saying.Human nature goes against God.

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I didn't say a word about symbols.

those graphic "images" of eternal punishment provoke the question, should we take these descriptions literally or are they merely symbols?

There is a lot of difference between being uneducated and being stupid. I think we would have to be the latter in order to believe that Jesus was just kidding about hell.

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

Where did the Jews get their understanding of Death, Hell etc.? It appears as if some Christians have come to that same understanding.
Did not Jesus elaborate on this subject? How do you suppose some people hold to the same understanding as the Pre-Jesus, Jews???

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The conclusion is that the proposition that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment is not Biblical

Soooo, Unbelievers just die, off too oblivion while Fallen Angels enter into...?

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We are not entitled, much less required, in our present condition to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment in any way that
either exceeds Scripture or reflects a perverse delight in damnation.

I'll go along with you on this one. I Don't want to believe that anybody go to hell. I know that everybody is a child of God, made in the likeness of him. Preaching Hellfire never agreed with me (even though it is not about me). I would rather focus on life (not my life), love and happiness.

Death and Sin are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.

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Originally Posted by waltero

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

Where did the Jews get their understanding of Death, Hell etc.? It appears as if some Christians have come to that same understanding.
Did not Jesus elaborate on this subject? How do you suppose some people hold to the same understanding as the Pre-Jesus, Jews???

Soooo, Unbelievers just die, off too oblivion while Fallen Angels enter into...?

I'll go along with you on this one. I Don't want to believe that anybody go to hell. I know that everybody is a child of God, made in the likeness of him. Preaching Hellfire never agreed with me (even though it is not about me). I would rather focus on life (not my life), love and happiness.

Death and Sin are condemned to hell for eternal punishment.

Nothing above responds to the issue.

IF THIS SITE IS STILL MODERATED, I'M REQUESTING THE MODERATOR TO CLOSE THIS THREAD. THE PROPOSED ANSWERS ARE BECOMING REPETITIVE (WHEN THEY ARE LEGIBLE) AND NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN OFFERED.

THANK YOU.

The set up:

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The quote must contain the following:
1- "Unbelievers", not a word that may or not mean Unbelievers.
2- "Condemned", a euphemism meaning the exact same thing is acceptable. NOTE: "Perish", for example, does NOT have the same meaning.
3- "Hell", an equivalent word for an afterlife for unbelievers is acceptable.
4- "Eternal punishment", both words are necessary, OR an absolute equivalent.

Irrelevant.

This is nothing more than a distorted projection or perspective...attempting to gain a specific vantage point in your Challenge.

The Question:

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Can anyone provide a quote from the Bible where it is stated that unbelievers are condemned to hell for eternal punishment?
If you believe this saying without providing proof, please explain why you believe it. Thank you.

What is Hell?
Jewish belief, Christian belief? Lets just say that Hell is not eternal.
Revelations 20:40

Then both Death and "Hell" will be cast into the Lake of Fire...I'm Guessing the lake of fire is!

Unbelievers/Believers won't be known as Unbelievers/Believers in the afterlife...it won't matter what you believe or don't believe. At the point of Death, you either enter into life (Jesus) or Death (the First death, that of the body AKA Unbeliever).

You want to watch out for dat dare second death, I'm a bettin dat is a doozy!