classyT,
I agree and it's as I said a true Christian as opposed to one who just claims to be one.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
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classyT,
I agree and it's as I said a true Christian as opposed to one who just claims to be one.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
I agree, though if someone claims to be a Christian as I define the term ("saved," in the terms of this thread) I tend to believe I should give them the benefit of the doubt since I'm not qualified to judge their hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
JESUS SAYD IN A NEW TESTAMENT, THAT FOR THOSE WHO CONTINUES TO LIVE PURPOSLY IN A SINFUL LIFESTYLE, NO MORE LEFT ANY COVERAGE FOR SINS, BUT A FEARFUL AWAITING OF THE FIERY JUDGEMENT... For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins... Hope,it helped you...
John 10:28-29 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 15Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:2 In the original Greek taken away is airo, which means “to raise up, elevate, lift up” (Strong’s Concordance). Grape farmers must lift the vines off the ground if they are to produce fruit. In verse 2, Jesus was saying anyone who abides in him, (a believer) will be lifted so that he can produce fruit. Those who do not abide in the branch (non-believers) will be thrown into the fire. (Verse 6)
I'm not an expert in Greek. But Airo, third meaning in the concordance used by the BLB says that it does mean:Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
a) to move from its place
b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
c) to remove
d) to carry off, carry away with one
e) to appropriate what is taken
f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
g) to take and apply to any use
h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
I) cause to cease
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
As I said, I'm not an expert in Greek, but I assume the folks who put together the King James were. And according to the context they chose to say:
John 15:2 (King James Version)
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
The NIV experts say the same;
John 15:2 (New International Version)
2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.
John 15:2 (New American Standard Bible)
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He [a]prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
Are you a greater expert than they?
De Maria's response to this is correct. Airo has a very broad meaning according to its context, and in this one it pretty well has to mean "remove." The real question is, how do we reconcile this passage with the John 10 passage that saintjoan quoted. On the one hand we haveQuote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
"No one can take them out of my hand, they have eternal life and will NEVER perish,"
And on the other hand we have
"if it doesn't abide in me it doesn't bear fruit, and it's removed."
So there's the conundrum. How do you reconcile the two? (That's an open question to anybody who wants to respond, by the way.)
John 15:1 says that the Father is the husbandman. It is the Father who prunes and cuts branches.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
John 15
1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:...
In addition, we know that a person can wilfully remove himself by negligence or by choosing to do evil:
Hebrews 2:2-4 (King James Version)
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
John 15
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Yes, we know your view and the passages behind it. What about the other ones? You have not addressed them. That's what I'm asking you to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Check out Living Waters, the way of the master. Your boyfriend does not have the fruits of the spirit in which a TRUE repented child of God does... He may have been a FALSE CONVERT to start with, its too tiring to be good, and to change in the flesh WITHOUT the help of the spirit! Google - The way of the master. It's a gold mine of knowledge that may help you out :D
First of all, it is the FRUIT not fruits of the spirit. Second of all no one can say whether the person is truly the Lord's. But once I really am placed IN Christ, He in me... then I'm HID in God. And it has NOTHING in the world to do with my performance as a Christian and it has everything to do with HIS finished work. And that is all I have to say about that.
While I respect your belief, doesn't it absolve you from any bad behavior you may have had, or now have, or will have in the future?Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
No offense, but your position strikes me as "cheap grace", a kind of 21st century Madame Guyon.
That's the usual accusation, but it's built on a false premise. It assumes that one will convert in order to be able to get away with stuff sans consequences. But true conversion comes as a result of a change of attitude, a desire to turn one's life around. Will there be times of misbehavior? Downright badness? Of course. People are people. Temptation will come and we will succumb at times. But God's grace looks at the "big picture," if you will, and that's why it covers such times. There's a judgment for believers, too, and we don't actually know what it looks like. We do know it doesn't involve condemnation/hell/whatever, but that's as much as we know. There will be an accounting, for both believers and non-believers, so there really is no such thing as this "cheap grace."Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
"cheap grace"... hmmm.. interesting but absolutely false. If Grace is unmerited favor... and I can't earn it because I don't deserve it... then explain to me how I can keep it... when I can't EARN it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
When you really understand grace... the way the Lord Jesus died to give it freely to us all... it will produce the right behavior. So there isn't anything CHEAP about my Saviors grace. It would be CHEAP only if I could lose it.
I don't know anything about madame Guyon... ( shall Google it) but it is the same thing the Apostle Paul preached. So my position is the Bible's position... no strings attached. UNMERITED means just that. :)
It makes no such assumption. The "bad" behavior comes after. One "presumes" the grace of God (once saved, always saved). This leads to the believer acting out in ways no longer guided by traditional principles first laid down in the Ten Commandments.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Does every single person follow this path? Obviously not. But it is a danger, nonetheless. That's why I mentioned Madame Guyon who is the great exemplar of antinomianism.
Gods Word is sharper that a two edged sword
Hebrews 10:26-27, For if we wilfully sin after receiving the knowlage of the truth, there remains NO More Sacrifice for sin. But only a fearful expectation of judgement of a raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
John 9:31 We know that God does NOT listen to SINNERS, he LISTENS to Godly people that do his will.
Job 35:13 Indeed, God does NOT listen to their empty plea, the Almighty pays NO attention to it.
Galatians 6:7 Do NOT be decived, God is NOT mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap!
GOD Bless all who listen to his Word and OBEY Him, AMEN.
I am not a expert in Greek. But James Strong was. He defines airo as follows:
1) to raise up, elevate, lift
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
1c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one
3e) to appropriate what is taken
3f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
3g) to take and apply to any use
3h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
3i) cause to cease
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
It would appear that the concept of taking up or lifting is implied in all three definitions. The translators of the King James Bible did translate Airo as take away 32 times, lift 4 times, bear 3 times.
AV - take up 32, take away 25, take 25, away with 5, lift 4, bear 3, misc 8; 102 Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.
The word eternal means never ending. If one looses his salvation, then he never really had eternal life to begin with. He at best had temporary life.
My observation is somewhat beside the point, and it's aimed more at the administrators of this site. Do I read correctly that this question has been open since the year 2007 ? Or is that some kind of error ?
I do agree that the question itself is EXTREMELY important. But, almost FOUR YEARS for the same question?? What gives?? Am I missing something here?
I know that my personal rating on this site is very low. But I have asked a few questions that were also quite interesting and open too much possible discussion. But they were summarily CLOSED. For no apparent reason that I could fathom. What kind of rationale is at work here that governs this site ? Nothing that makes sense to me.
Your powers of observation do not deceive you that is indeed the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
I don't think you are missing anything, although the OP hasn't been back since Feb 2007Quote:
I do agree that the question itself is EXTREMELY important. But, almost FOUR YEARS for the same question?? What gives?? Am I missing something here?
I think that has already been explained to you on a number of occasions already.Quote:
I know that my personal rating on this site is very low. But I have asked a few questions that were also quite interesting and open too much possible discussion. But they were summarily CLOSED. For no apparent reason that I could fathom. What kind of rationale is at work here that governs this site ? Nothing that makes sense to me.
Curlyben, your heading contains the title "Admin & Wine Expert..."
I assume that means you're one of the administators at Ask Me. Is that correct ?
Allow me to clarify an apparent misunderstanding of some very basic English definitions.
[1] Brush - Off: an abrupt dismissal or snub.
[2] Explanation: the act of making understandable, elucidating, expounding, clarifying, etc.
Do you see the difference between [1] and [2] ?
You are correctQuote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
And your point is ?Quote:
Allow me to clarify an apparent misunderstanding of some very basic English definitions.
[1] Brush - Off: an abrupt dismissal or snub.
[2] Explanation: the act of making understandable, elucidating, expounding, clarifying, etc.
Do you see the difference between [1] and [2] ?
Quoting Curlyben:
"And your point is ?"
Answer: Apparently wasted.
But I don't mind that much. You see after all I'm still here.
P.S. Where can I find and download icons that move similar to yours ? Very spooky effect.
You aren't saved by what by you do or what you don't do. You are saved by GRACE through FAITH, this is NOT of YOURSELF, but a GIFT from GOD. Ephesians 2:8 I don't know about you guys, but where I'm come from, you don't earn GIFTS! Here is an article that I think sums it up. I encourage you to read it from start to finish.
One of the most hotly debated points of doctrine (apart from the timing of the Rapture) among Christians of different denominations is the question of eternal security. Specifically, can a believer who was saved fall away and lose his salvation? Is there an unforgiveable sin for which a believer can be condemned?
Those who would argue yes are just as sincere in their doctrinal view as those who take the other side, and both sides have Scripture to support their view.
I thought it might be good to take a look at the Scriptures used by those say the Bible teaches that a believer can lose his salvation.
In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 Paul writes, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." Is this referring to the falling away of part of the True Church?
First, let's look at what falling away means in the context of the believer. The term 'fall away' was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a 'falling away'. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation.
For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of 'backsliding' (an OT term not found in the New) or time of being out of fellowship with God.
There ARE times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk.
But a true believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk at that moment might not reflect what they believe.
But note that even though Jesus said they would 'fall away', in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32)
In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them.
Concerning this intercession we are told, "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us" (Romans 11:2)
We need that intercession most when we are struggling, yet some believers will argue that it is when we need the Lord most that He abandons us to our sin.
See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this High Priestly prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe.
And Romans 8:32-34 cites Jesus' intercession as proof we cannot be separated from the love of Christ.
The 'great apostasy' of the last days is not referring to saved believers, but is instead referencing the kind of doctrinal dumbing down that would allow an openly homosexual Episcopalian priest to be elevated to the bishopric, or the attack on the Boy Scouts for not admitting homosexuals.
Jesus said this time would be like the days of Noah and Lot - "every imagination of the thoughts of [men's] heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5) with rampant homosexuality (Genesis 19:8).
Hebrews 6:4-6 is often used to 'prove' a believer can lose salvation. It says, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
It appears on the surface to say that a believer can lose his salvation, but if you read it closely, it teaches the exact opposite.
It teaches that the believer cannot be renewed to repentance (born again - again!) because it would require crucifying the Lord again, and 'putting Him to an open shame'.
If this passage teaches that a believer could lose his salvation, then it also teaches that believer is forever damned and beyond repentance. You cannot interpret 'impossible' in this passage to mean anything except 'impossible'.
And the 'open shame' Paul says it would expose the Lord to is that He failed to keep all that God had given Him, as He said in His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Then there is the passage in Hebrews 10:26-27 which says, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."
First, the book of Hebrews was written TO the Hebrews (1st century Jewish believers). That doesn't mean it is irrelevant to the Church, but there is a context here.
For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century was a death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers.
The 'wilful sin" mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with for if.. .
The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The 'wilful sin' that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism.
Under the Judaism they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didn t accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.)
Another commonly misinterpeted Scripture refers to 'a branch that doesn t bare fruit will be cast into the fire.'
1 Corinthians 1 Cor 3:15 clearly states that for a true believer, even if their work is burned up (ie no fruit) they are still saved, but as one who escapes 'as by fire'. They are in Heaven, but they have no rewards.
Scripture never contradicts Scripture.
Another proof text used to prove salvation is dependent on doing good works is James 2:26; "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
This is another verse that is purported to prove one thing, but in fact, proves the opposite.
By definition, one who is saved cannot have 'dead' faith, since it is their faith that has saved them in the first place. Someone may have a belief, or head knowledge that certain facts are true without giving themselves over to that belief.
James 2:19 says, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Believing in God is not the same has having faith in Christ.
Dead faith is simply a head knowledge that cannot save.
Consider this; I know all about George Bush, but he doesn't know me -- that is to say, I have no personal relationship with George Bush, but I believe he is the president.
There are many who know all about Jesus, and might even profess to believe He is God, but have no personal relationship with Him. Works arising from that kind of relationship is by definition, dead, since it bears no eternal fruit.
The Scriptures clearly establish that a genuine conversion will stand no matter how great the adversity. "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down" (Psalms 37:24)
The Apostle Paul told believers to put on the whole armor of God.
"Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Ephesians 6:13-17).
On the battlefield, the most effective way to dispatch an opponent is to go for a head shot.
Paul refers to the 'helmet of salvation' -- if you know you are saved, eternally, the enemy can never take you out of the game.
He can't use guilt to stop you from witnessing. He can't convince you that aren't really saved. He can't convince you that you are unworthy to carry the Gospel to the lost. In short, he can't take that 'head shot' that would render a believer useless to the cause of Christ.
In these last days, the Scripture says that Satan will pull out all the stops, 'because he knows he hath but a short time'.
Those of us who are properly equipped with the truth, the knowledge that we are covered by the righteousness of Christ, are prepared with a knowledge of the Gospel, which we are prepared to share in peace, secure in our faith and certain of our standing before Him are formidable opponents in the battle for the souls of men.
"And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:27)
The battle has been joined. And our victory is assured.
Don't let anyone rob you of your weapons.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
Nrice
Your article presents some interesting points and arguments. And I too happen to be persuaded that OSAS (once saved always saved).Quote:
The battle has been joined. And our victory is assured.
Don't let anyone rob you of your weapons.
Though ultimately, the battle is not ours, but it is the Lord's. "And all this assembly shall know that Jehovah saveth not with sword and spear. For the battle is Jehovah's, and He will give you into our hands." 1 Samuel 17:47
To quote the Apostle Paul:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Hi Headstrong:
To quote a guy much wiser than I:
“It is He who calls it Eternal life. If it can possibly have an end, it is not eternal. If it is everlasting, it must last forever. When He says eternal he means just that. We need not argue. We need not cite cases. We need not quote other passages. One clear positive declaration of His and the case is closed. We leave the rest to a mind far greater than our own.” The Seven great I ams Archibald Campbell, Christian Literature Crusade, 1968, page 97.
Are we really running our whole country on a belief that everyone who has faith will have eternal life, no matter what they do? And that the only punishment for sin by a saved person, is earthly punishment in the form of accidents and illness?
Then why do people trust only Christians to elected office? Not because we can expect more ethical decisions and behavior, but that a Christian leader may protect the country from earthly disasters and dangers?
I wonder if the public in general understands this. That's why the Christians want to whole country to be Christian, so our country will be blessed by good luck and protected.
Remember when that Christian leader (Falwell?) blamed Katrina on New Orleans being sinful? By this set of beliefs, he was serious.
I think the country does not understand the attitude of a politician like George W. Bush, who said he was saved. Then he never cared if he started a war, made poor people suffer, or spent the country into bankruptcy. He was saved, so he didn't care. He also believed he was anointed by God to be President.
This is a very screwed up belif system. I doubt if most people even are aware of it. No wonder we are in such an illogical mess as a country. We are being governed by people with irrational ideas about hwo reality works.
I'm not sure what the point is or how we got onto politics. Nobody ever said Christians are perfect, or even good. We're just forgiven. That's what makes the difference. It has nothing to do with politics, and most of us really don't want to run the country. I'm sorry, but this sort of came out of left field.Quote:
Originally Posted by sophiacat1
Hi Sophia
There are many who claim to be Christians but are not saved.
The Bible makes it clear that those who have truly been saved will be a new creation:
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Jesus said:
Matthew 7:21-23 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
While I agree with this, it's not the only answer. Not all Christians who mess up are not really saved. We're still human, so we do dumb things. Sometimes the theology behind our behavior is no more complicated than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by saintjoan
I'm quoting the above because I want to repeat that our personal salvation does not depend on our behavior (good or bad) in the first place. Also our salvation does not depend on our getting baptized with water, or being a church member.Quote:
dwashbur said: Not all Christians who mess up are not really saved. We're still human, so we do dumb things.
Our salvation depends entirely upon God choosing us, and upon Him having made payment for our sins. That includes justification and what some on this site have called sanctification. The way I understand the word sanctification (it means to be made holy), there is no difference between sanctification and justification. When a person is justified (has all their sins forgiven), they are in effect made holy (sanctified). However all of that activity has occurred only in their soul existence. Their body remains under the law of sin and death. That is why a conflict exists in the Christian who has been born again. All of Romans chapter 7 speaks about this conflict.
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
That grace is available to whosoever will:
Revelation 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There are carnal believers (1 Corinthians 3:1), who will make it into heaven. (1 Corinthians 3:15). However we should expect those who have truly been saved to show a change in their lives because they have been saved.
I know that the verse you've quoted seems crystal clear when it stands by itself. The problem is that we do not have truth until we examine every verse in the light of the whole Bible. Take for example Ezekiel 36:24 through 27. There God is clearly indicating that all the action of saving His people is God's action alone. They can read the Bible (take of the water of life), but they cannot give themselves a new heart or a new spirit.Quote:
saintjoan said: That grace is available to whosoever will:
Revelation 22:17 And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
So explain please how the two may be reconciled.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadStrongBoy
I'm not trying to be evasive, but please specify exactly what "two" you're referring to. I could guess what's on your mind. But I'd rather not do that.Quote:
dwashbur said: So explain please how the two may be reconciled.
Hey Headstrongboy: Our final authority must be the Bible not John Calvin:
A wiser man than you and I said:
Charles Spurgeon:
“Repent, and be baptized every one of you” said Peter. As John Bunyan puts it – one man might have stood up in the crowd and said, “But I helped hound him to the cross!” “Repent and be baptized every one of you” “But I drove the nails into His hands!” saith one. “Everyone of you,” says Peter. “But I pierced his side!” said another. “Everyone of you,” said Peter. “And I put my tongue into my cheek and stared at His nakedness and said, ‘If He be the Son of God, let him come down from the cross.’” “Every one of you,” said Peter. “Repent, and be baptized every one of you.” I do feel grieved at many of our Calvinistic brethren; They know nothing about Calvinism, I am sorry to say, for never was any man more caricatured by his professed followers than John Calvin. Many are afraid to preach from Peter’s text. “Repent and be baptized every one of you.” When I do it, they say, “He is unsound.” Well if I am unsound on this point, I have all the Puritans with me – the whole bunch of them almost without exception.” Hyper-Calvinism, a false doctrine, Dr. John R. Rice, Sword of the Lord Publishers, 1970, page 15
I fail to see why you've addressed the comment about John Calvin to me. I do not follow Calvin. Neither do I quote him. To make my point I have quoted from scriptures, not from church fathers, as you have.Quote:
saintjoan said: Hey Headstrongboy: Our final authority must be the Bible not John Calvin:
Charles Spurgeon is not a church father. Neither is John Calvin. All men are called to salvation. We have the responsibility to respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Ezekiel 33.
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Glad to see that you are not a Calvinist.
I agree that God commands all men (and women) to repent. And I agree that God holds us all responsible for our sins (failure to repent).Quote:
saintjoan said: All men are called to salvation. We have the responsibility to respond to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Ezekiel 33. Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
However, to get the complete picture we should also look at Jeremiah 17:9. "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it ?"
Such a heart is not capable of repenting, by it's own power.
The solution to this apparently impossible predicament is found in Ezekiel 36:26. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
When God has first done that... then the individual will be able to repent, and believe, and do all the other good works expected of a new creature.
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