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  • Jul 1, 2010, 06:25 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    i want to do good works now because of the HOLY SPIRIT who lives in me. I don't do them for my salvation.

    Yup. Good works are our thank you to God for salvation. God loves us and gave us a free gift of eternal life; now we say "thank you" by loving Him in return and demonstrating His love to others.

    Grandma gives me a new bike just because she loves me. I say thank you to her and then, without her asking me to do it, I sweep her front porch and set the table for lunch and pull weeds in her garden because I am so happy. I do Grandpa's and Grandma's laundry, fold it after it's dry, and put it away in the right places. When I go home later, I am cheerful and loving, helping Mom and Dad however I can.
  • Jul 1, 2010, 06:28 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    That he had all the physical needs of a man, he felt hunger, thirst, pain, happiness, sadness. It is true he had a free will..but his free will was the exact same as God the Father. Perhaps it isn't fruitful to debate this...but I'm really surprised that not one person has agreed with me.

    Was Jesus' free will the same kind as what God gave Adam?
  • Jul 1, 2010, 07:09 AM
    classyT

    WG,

    Adam didn't understand all things.. he had no knowledge of good and evil. Jesus fully understood. So while Jeus did have a free will... it was with full knowledge of everything.

    The promise of the Lord Jesus was given in Genesis 3 :15 when God is speaking to satan..

    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    It was already a done deal.. Jesus couldn't sin... wouldn't sin and wasn't capable of it. God's word is TRUTH... he isn't a man that he should lie.. so why promise this if there was a possiblily?
  • Jul 1, 2010, 07:16 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    It was already a done deal..Jesus couldn't sin...wouldn't sin and wasn't capable of it. God's word is TRUTH...he isn't a man that he should lie..so why promise this if there was a possiblily?

    Then our faith is in vain, and Jesus' sacrifice was for naught. If what you say is true, He is not the "New Adam" who understands us, He did not really suffer during the beatings and humiliation by the soldiers, and He did not suffer in the Garden nor on the cross. All is a sham.
  • Jul 1, 2010, 08:25 AM
    classyT

    Yes he did... he suffered bled and died. He is called the second Adam. Why is our faith in vain?

    All I'm saying is that God had the solution to the fall of man in Genesis... and he did suffer and die for us and he crushed the head of satan in the process.

    Not sure why you think it is a sham?
  • Jul 1, 2010, 02:34 PM
    TUT317
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    That he had all the physical needs of a man, he felt hunger, thirst, pain, happiness, sadness. It is true he had a free will..but his free will was the exact same as God the Father. Perhaps it isn't fruitful to debate this...but I'm really surprised that not one person has agreed with me.


    Hi ClassyT,

    I think it is fruitful because these types of statements are central to your original question. As Boogers pointed out the idea that Jesus and God having the same free will suffers from an Euthypro problem.

    I am a bit pushed for time at the moment but I could outline the problem later on if you like.

    Regards

    Tut
  • Jul 1, 2010, 03:06 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Yes he did...he suffered bled and died.

    But only in a robotic way, and not really real blood or pain, right? 'Cause after all, you said He wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. He wasn't really human and couldn't be tempted which means He didn't really suffer and die like a human. Not really. Right? It was just a fakey God thing, not a human thing. Right?
  • Jul 1, 2010, 03:10 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    But only in a robotic way, and not really real blood or pain, right? 'Cause after all, you said He wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. He wasn't really human and couldn't be tempted which means He didn't really suffer and die like a human. Not really. Right? It was just a fakey God thing, not a human thing. Right?

    I don't see how this follows. Not being tempted to sin really doesn't have anything to do with mortality or the capacity to suffer.
  • Jul 1, 2010, 07:45 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    That isn't what the bible records. Christ FINISHED the work at calvary....

    Christ finished his ministry in His Passion, so doing beginning His Kingdom on earth.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Also I would like to add that in the bible when Paul used the word HOPE it is a sure thing...not like when we use the word hope. He says so himself. Check out Romans 5:5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
    HOPE DOESN"T disappoint..it is a SURE thing

    Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only so; but we glory also in tribulations, knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience trial; and trial hope; And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us.

    A hope that realizes its object is no longer hope. The virtue of hope that scripture speaks of is a yearning to obtain from God an infinite good, particularly consisting of eternal life and a gratification only God satisfies. In hope we are no longer hesitant in our faith satisfying the intellect and will to seek Him. (Cf. Augustine, Holy Trinity, 14, 3, 6)

    These verses in Romans don’t speak of a guaranteed salvation; ‘faith alone’ isn’t salvific. Rather it’s a dead faith no longer in need of God finding instead a satisfaction in self. These verses speak to that assurance of hope that groans “within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.” We find God’s charity that he gave us Christ, whose death didn’t end sin, doesn’t warranty salvation, but gives us hope even in tribulation. This hope translates into our perseverance in hope, with fear and trembling to work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil. 2:12).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Also check out Colossians 1:27 Because Christ is in you, the hope of glory

    Also : In Ephesians we are told when we BELIEVED the gospel of our salvation we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. I didn't have to click my heels..i simply believed and I was born again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, my name written in the lambs book of life where no man could pluck me out of HIs hand and I was immediately seated in heavenly places. (That is my position spiritually) I didn't say it.....the Bible did.

    God’s grace, gives us faith which in its turn produces hope which in its turn produces charity. However, Charity is the greatest of these, because it merits grace which in turn strengthens our faith working an increase in our hope and again an increase in charity.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Now if it wasn't true that I was sealed with the Holy Spirit after I believed..why did Paul say such a thing? AND.....my question for you is...what sin could I commit where the Holy Spirit would leave me after I believed? The Bible says we can quench the Spirit and we can grieve the Spirit..but I find nothing to say the HOLY SPIRIT will ever leave. I'm sealed. I'm safe, I'm secure..not because I deserve it...but because the Lord Jesus redeemed me and I rest completely in HIM by faith plus NOTHING. For HE is truly enough. This is what makes Christianity different from every other religion..i don't have to do ANYTHNG other than believe. Then because I am sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT..i want to do good works now because of the HOLY SPIRIT who lives in me. I don't do them for my salvation.

    It’s not true that hope is eternal; if it is then we are doomed. Part of hope is that we realize our faith in Christ, becoming adopted ‘sons of God’; “hope that is seen, is not hope”. Conversely, a hope that is eternal is never realized.

    Furthermore, if by eternal hope you mean to say that we realize our hope in this world then we are also doomed. Receiving our salvation in this world would be to say that our hope is realized in this world. Look around your mad world; is this your ‘salvation’? To what end do we persevere to the end, to be saved back into this world? (Cf Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    There is nowhere in the bible that says I have to take communion to be saved. The Lord Jesus asked us to do it in remembrance of HIM and His death. I WANT to do it....I love to do it..but it has nothing to do with my salvation.

    It’s in this way the bible says hope saves: “And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God [i.e. HOPE FOR], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope.” (Romans 8:23-24). It’s in our hope that we preserver.

    JoeT
  • Jul 2, 2010, 02:37 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    But only in a robotic way, and not really real blood or pain, right? 'Cause after all, you said He wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. He wasn't really human and couldn't be tempted which means He didn't really suffer and die like a human. Not really. Right? It was just a fakey God thing, not a human thing. Right?

    No... it was real and it was something no one has ever gone through nor will go through. Not only was it painful beyond words, but he was ridiculed, spit on, mocked.. and then God placed all the sin of the world upon HIM, who knew no sin. The Lord was sweating great drops of blood in the garden.. it didn't get too much more REAL than that, talk about STRESS. He was fully human obviously and not at all robotic. My point WG is that he couldn't, wouldn't, and not capable of sin. Jesus, even in his humanity, came for one purpose; to do the will of his Father. The promise of Jesus was given in Genesis 3:15. How could he have failed? How could he have any other will? God is not a man that he should lie.
  • Jul 2, 2010, 02:46 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TUT317 View Post
    Hi ClassyT,

    I think it is fruitful because these types of statements are central to your original question. As Boogers pointed out the idea that Jesus and God having the same free will suffers from an Euthypro problem.

    I am a bit pushed for time at the moment but I could outline the problem later on if you like.

    Regards

    Tut

    Feel free to explain. But I do believe that the Lord Jesus is God and I do believe his free will was to do the will of his Father.

    Tess
  • Jul 2, 2010, 02:57 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    My point WG is that he couldn't, wouldn't, and not capable of sin. Jesus, even in his humanity, came for one purpose; to do the will of his Father. The promise of Jesus was given in Genesis 3:15. How could he have failed? How could he have any other will? God is not a man that he should lie.

    Yes, Jesus could have failed. Adam failed. Because he failed, we are all caught in the web of sin and will not live forever in a perfect world like he was meant to do. Jesus came for one purpose: to be the perfect creature, the perfect Adam, that we cannot be. Jesus replayed the tape just like Superman did in the movie by the same name when he rewrote history. The Genesis verse doesn't say Jesus will be successful; it simply says God will try again someday with a "new Adam." And He did. And that new Adam was able to withstand temptation this time and override His human desires (unlike the old Adam).
  • Jul 2, 2010, 03:34 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Christ finished his ministry in His Passion, so doing beginning His Kingdom on earth.


    Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God. And not only so; but we glory also in tribulations, knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience trial; and trial hope; And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us.

    A hope that realizes its object is no longer hope. The virtue of hope that scripture speaks of is a yearning to obtain from God an infinite good, particularly consisting of eternal life and a gratification only God satisfies. In hope we are no longer hesitant in our faith satisfying the intellect and will to seek Him. (Cf. Augustine, Holy Trinity, 14, 3, 6)

    These verses in Romans don’t speak of a guaranteed salvation; ‘faith alone’ isn’t salvific. Rather it’s a dead faith no longer in need of God finding instead a satisfaction in self. These verses speak to that assurance of hope that groans “within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.” We find God’s charity that he gave us Christ, whose death didn’t end sin, doesn’t warranty salvation, but gives us hope even in tribulation. This hope translates into our perseverance in hope, with fear and trembling to work out our salvation. (Cf. Phil. 2:12).



    God’s grace, gives us faith which in its turn produces hope which in its turn produces charity. However, Charity is the greatest of these, because it merits grace which in turn strengthens our faith working an increase in our hope and again an increase in charity.



    It’s not true that hope is eternal; if it is then we are doomed. Part of hope is that we realize our faith in Christ, becoming adopted ‘sons of God’; “hope that is seen, is not hope”. Conversely, a hope that is eternal is never realized.

    Furthermore, if by eternal hope you mean to say that we realize our hope in this world then we are also doomed. Receiving our salvation in this world would be to say that our hope is realized in this world. Look around your mad world; is this your ‘salvation’? To what end do we persevere to the end, to be saved back into this world? (Cf Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13).



    It’s in this way the bible says hope saves: “And not only it, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God [i.e. HOPE FOR], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope.” (Romans 8:23-24). It’s in our hope that we preserver.

    JoeT

    GrumpyJoeT,

    Wow... we just totally don't agree.

    I will say it again... Hebrews 12:2 Jesus christ is the AUTHOR and FINISHER of my faith. ( I didn't say it... the Bible did)

    When Paul speaks of Hope.. he lays it out plain as can be. I am not hoping I am saved... I KNOW I aml. Because my HOPE is in the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know this kind of HOPE doesn't disappoint. You can try to get around it but that is what the Bible says.

    I was sealed with the Holy spirit the moment I believed... ( I guess sealed doesn't really mean sealed.) I was seated in heavenly places ( guess seated doesn't really mean seated) The Lord Jesus himself has said he will never leave me or forsake me... ( I guess never doesn't mean never).

    I believe the bible. I believe : if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead THOU SHALT BE SAVED. Romans 10:9 ( don't tell me.. let me guess... it doesn't mean I'm saved if I do exactly that)

    Hey, I believe the Bible. I don't add to it and I don't twist it. I put it into context and I believe it... it is called faith. For by grace are you saved through faith and THAT not of yourself, it is a gift from God lest any man should boast. Eph.

    Heck,according to that verse, I can't even take credit for having the FAITH to get saved.



    Honesty I have no idea what you are talking about when you stated this:


    "Furthermore, if by eternal hope you mean to say that we realize our hope in this world then we are also doomed. Receiving our salvation in this world would be to say that our hope is realized in this world. Look around your mad world; is this your ‘salvation’? To what end do we persevere to the end, to be saved back into this world?"

    HUH? I'm saved from spending my eternity in a devils hell separated from God forever and ever. I'm saved and my name was written in the Lambs book of life the day I received Christ as my Lord and savior. I'm NOT saved from living in this world. But I am called to be salt and light to it. I am told( in scripture) to be in the world but not OF the world. I'm saved so that I can live and tell others the good news of Jesus Christ.

    Sorry if I'm rambling... gotta run. Going to go watch some fireworks.
  • Jul 2, 2010, 03:48 PM
    TUT317
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Feel free to explain. But I do believe that the Lord Jesus is God and I do believe his free will was to do the will of his Father.

    Tess

    Hi Tess,

    I don't think I will.

    You are obviously passionate about this. I don't want to try and undermine your beliefs.

    Best wishes

    Tut.
  • Jul 2, 2010, 04:16 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TUT317 View Post
    Hi Tess,

    I don't think I will.

    You are obviously passionate about this. I don't want to try and undermine your beliefs.

    Best wishes

    Tut.

    Sounds like it's about time for the good ol' "agree to disagree" thing?
  • Jul 3, 2010, 09:06 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Yes, Jesus could have failed. Adam failed. Because he failed, we are all caught in the web of sin and will not live forever in a perfect world like he was meant to do. Jesus came for one purpose: to be the perfect creature, the perfect Adam, that we cannot be. Jesus replayed the tape just like Superman did in the movie by the same name when he rewrote history. The Genesis verse doesn't say Jesus will be successful; it simply says God will try again someday with a "new Adam." And He did. And that new Adam was able to withstand temptation this time and override His human desires (unlike the old Adam).

    WG,
    Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15 and it DID say he would be successful... Satan bruised the Lord's heal... but the LORD crushed Satan's head. If Jesus could fail, God wouldn't have made such a promise.
    ALSO:
    Adam wasn't sent to redeem mankind and then failed. Adam caused the sin problem with his failure and passed to everyone after him. The reason the Lord Jesus is called the second Adam because HE came and JUSTIFIED mankind. He makes those that call upon him... just as if they had NEVER sinned. This is the reason he is called the second Adam. Not because he overcame some temptation. One man caused sin and separation from God... Jesus came and redeemed us back to have fellowship with the Father because we are a new creature.
  • Jul 3, 2010, 10:51 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    WG,
    Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15 and it DID say he would be successful....Satan bruised the Lord's heal...but the LORD crushed Satan's head. If Jesus could fail, God wouldn't have made such a promise.
    ALSO:
    Adam wasn't sent to redeem mankind and then failed. Adam caused the sin problem with his failure and passed to everyone after him. The reason the Lord Jesus is called the second Adam because HE came and JUSTIFIED mankind. He makes those that call upon him...just as if they had NEVER sinned. This is the reason he is called the second Adam. Not because he overcame some temptation. One man caused sin and seperation from God...Jesus came and redeemed us back to have fellowship with the Father because we are a new creature.

    Sir Nitpick sez to both of ya:

    Jesus is never called the Second Adam. He's call the Last Adam in 1 Cor 15:45.
  • Jul 3, 2010, 11:06 PM
    Wondergirl

    My RSV says "second" for the I Cor. Verse.
  • Jul 3, 2010, 11:13 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    WG,
    Jesus was promised in Genesis 3:15 and it DID say he would be successful... Satan bruised the Lord's heal... but the LORD crushed Satan's head.

    That takes us only to the crucifixion and Jesus in the grave. (Pssst, the Lord's heel, not "heal.")
    Quote:

    Adam wasn't sent to redeem mankind and then failed.
    We weren't supposed to need Jesus. Adam was created perfect, and if he'd minded his p's and q's, redemption wouldn't have been necessary.
    Quote:

    Adam caused the sin problem with his failure and passed to everyone after him.
    So? I have no quarrel with that.
    Quote:

    The reason the Lord Jesus is called the second Adam because HE came and JUSTIFIED mankind.
    No, He's called that because he did it right -- lived a perfect life. The first Adam wasn't able to manage that.
  • Jul 3, 2010, 11:48 PM
    Donna Mae II
    "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."

    I also know that in order to be saved we must believe in Jesus Christ, but it also says, "you and your household." Is that saying that just because I believe that my family will be saved too, even if they don't believe? No, of course not. The verses also say, "Then they (Paul and Silas) spoke the word of the Lord," to the jailer and his household. This is something else we must do, read and know the words of our Lord.
    After this was done, and their wounds were washed, "then immediately he and all his family were baptized." There are other verses in God's word, that tell us to, "Repent and be baptized." Including this one in Acts, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

    We are given this promise; us, our children, our grandchildre; as long as we do the will of our Father, and in that will, He tells us to Believe, Study to show ourselves approved, Repent and be Baptized. Then we will receive the gift that is promised to us.
  • Jul 4, 2010, 09:47 AM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    My RSV says "second" for the I Cor. verse.

    It's wrong. The word in the Greek is ESCHATOS, "last."
  • Jul 4, 2010, 10:00 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    It's wrong. The word in the Greek is ESCHATOS, "last."

    I, in a Lutherlike way, was calling them the old and the new until ClassyT jogged me off center with "second." *hrumph* It's her fault.
  • Jul 4, 2010, 10:18 AM
    kp2171
    I always cringe when I enter the religious threads. Just can't stand how ugly it can get. Intriguiged by the questions... frustrated when it comes to verbal blows. I usually leave. I'm fine with conflict, but sometimes it just get too far for me. I'm not well read enough to volley back and forth also.

    Real, honest thanks to all who are active in this thread. I've loved reading through it.

    I've felt the grace of God at times in my life. I've struggled to really hear Him. I know damn well I've heard the voice of evil. Know this for sure. "wilderness" can take many shapes and forms.

    Gethsemane seals this for me.

    Brings me to tears.

    I believe Christ was capable of sin, but chose to not sin.

    If I'm wrong and Christ was, by nature, incapable of sin... well... fine then.

    A man still laid down His life to save mine.

    Either way, I'm humbled and grateful.
  • Jul 4, 2010, 11:50 AM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kp2171 View Post
    real, honest thanks to all who are active in this thread. ive loved reading through it.

    Thanks, kp, for saying that. We all honestly LIKE each other despite our differences, and that has come through in our responses. As a result, this thread hasn't dissolved into the usual ranting and fits, with Fr_Chuck closing it down.
  • Jul 4, 2010, 01:56 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    I, in a Lutherlike way, wuz calling them the old and the new until ClassyT jogged me off center with "second." *hrumph* It's her fault.

    I'm going to leave that one entirely alone!! :D
  • Jul 6, 2010, 07:17 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kp2171 View Post
    i always cringe when i enter the religious threads. just can't stand how ugly it can get. intriguiged by the questions... frustrated when it comes to verbal blows. i usually leave. im fine with conflict, but sometimes it just get too far for me. im not well read enough to volley back and forth also.

    real, honest thanks to all who are active in this thread. ive loved reading through it.

    ive felt the grace of God at times in my life. ive struggled to really hear Him. i know damn well ive heard the voice of evil. know this for sure. "wilderness" can take many shapes and forms.

    gethsemane seals this for me.



    brings me to tears.

    i believe Christ was capable of sin, but chose to not sin.

    if im wrong and Christ was, by nature, incapable of sin... well... fine then.

    a man still laid down His life to save mine.

    either way, im humbled and grateful.

    I agree with the fact that either way, I am humbled and grateful! Amen to that!!
  • Jul 6, 2010, 07:42 AM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Donna Mae II View Post
    "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household."

    I also know that in order to be saved we must believe in Jesus Christ, but it also says, "you and your household." Is that saying that just because I believe that my family will be saved too, even if they don't believe? No, of course not. The verses also say, "Then they (Paul and Silas) spoke the word of the Lord," to the jailer and his household. This is something else we must do, read and know the words of our Lord.
    After this was done, and their wounds were washed, "then immediately he and all his family were baptized." There are other verses in God's word, that tell us to, "Repent and be baptized." Including this one in Acts, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

    We are given this promise; us, our children, our grandchildre; as long as we do the will of our Father, and in that will, He tells us to Believe, Study to show ourselves approved, Repent and be Baptized. Then we will receive the gift that is promised to us.

    Donna Mae,

    I may be wrong on this but I'm going to tell you what I think concerning the jailer. I believe that promise was made to him because he was the head of the household and because of that position and his decision to follow Christ, his influence would affect his family and they would be saved as well. I don't think Paul meant his family was immediately saved because of his decsion.. in fact, I know he didn't because that thought isn't in line with any other scripture in the bible. AND I also think we can hold on to that promise for our individual families when we bring our children up in the Lord. ( I'm OPEN to anyone else's thoughts on this... please feel free to comment)

    Also ( and we have discussed this before) when peter told those Jews to repent and be baptized he had no concept of the church. He was still a Jewish man going to temple ( we see that later on in Acts.) Paul ( the apostle who was given from the Lord Jesus the knowledge of GRACE and how salvation works ( see all of Romans) never says baptism is required to be saved BUT it is an important part of our obedience to the Lord.. it is an outward showing to the world of the inward change. We see it over and over again. Of course one should be baptized!! But not a requirement for salvation.


    Whenever we read the bible, we have to put everything into context and rightly divide it.( Paul tells this to Timothy) Now why do we need to "rightly" divide the word? Because it can be "wrongly" divided. Before reading a book... know what the book is basically about and what is going on in the book and who it is written DIRECTLY to and who is speaking and WHY they are writing. Also take the chapter and what the writer is saying in the whole chapter BEFORE we try to understand one verse. Take for instance Galatians... I'm not going to go to Galatians to try to find info concerning salvation. WHY? Because it is a book about letting false doctrines in and adding something to our salvation. Do I make sense?

    Acts is about how Christianity actually STARTED. In the beginning of Acts... those 12 apostles were completely clueless on the concept of gentiles in the church, or even what the church really was ( the bride of Christ) they had know knoweldge of GRACE. If you want to know how salvation really works and what is required... read Romans. Paul explains it... it is faith plus NOTHING. Jesus did it all... Romans is all about the GRACE of God. And GRACE is something not any of us earn or deserve. Again... I am open to discussion on this topic.
  • Jul 6, 2010, 08:49 PM
    JoeT777
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Also ( and we have discussed this before) when peter told those Jews to repent and be baptized he had no concept of the church.

    Say again? So we can ignore everything in Peter because it was written in a certain order? Even still, most scholars, including Protestants, suggest The Acts of the Apostles was written before 1 Peter. What concept of Church would he have being given the Key to Heaven?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    but not a requirement for salvation.

    “I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Did Christ not know what he was talking since Matthew was written before John?

    JoeT
  • Jul 6, 2010, 10:17 PM
    Wondergirl

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777
    Did Christ not know what he was talking since Matthew was written before John?

    "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."—Mark 16:15-16.
  • Jul 7, 2010, 02:47 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
    Say again? So we can ignore everything in Peter because it was written in a certain order? Even still, most scholars, including Protestants, suggest The Acts of the Apostles was written before 1 Peter. What concept of Church would he have being given the Key to Heaven?


    “I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Did Christ not know what he was talking since Matthew was written before John?

    JoeT

    Grumpy JoeT,

    Now when did I say we could just ignore Peter? I didn't my little grumpy pal. Allzzzz I said was that Peter had no concept of the Church. He had no idea that the Lord was going to include gentiles and we are no longer under the law but under grace. He didn't... he didn't, he just plain didn't.

    That was later revealed and given to the Apostle Paul to preach and he did. BTW, who was Peter addressing in Acts? Me? You? Or was it the Jews who had JUST put the Lord Jesus on the cross only a couple of months before?? Hmmmmm... I believe it was the later if memory serves me correct. Context, context, context... otherwise the bible would contradict itself.. and we both know that isn't true. Surely we can agree on that! :)

    The apostle Paul teaches we are saved by faith plus NOTHING. Now, did I get baptized? Of course I did!! Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and doesn't follow in believers baptism is in disobedience. BUT it didn't save me. If I had died before I had gotten the chance, I would be in heaven right now. The Lord Jesus never left anything to man accept to believe. For without faith it is impossible to please God. If he had left something for us to do to earn our salvation or to keep our salvation, then our Christianity is just another religion where we hope and pray we are good enough and we did enough, and we did it right. Poppycock. Jesus paid it all... Salvation is of the Lord.

    Now do it think for a second that I changed your mind?? / naah... but that's OK. It will have to be another agree to disagree.
  • Jul 7, 2010, 07:23 PM
    Donna Mae II
    Yes, Peter was addressing the Jews who crucified Christ (and all of Israel), but everything in the Bible is for our learning. When Jesus was preaching on the mountain, he was talking to people from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and the region across the Jordan. Does that mean that we don't have to follow what He was teaching them because He wasn't exactly talking to us. No. Jesus' teachings, and the apostles' teachings are things we study everyday, and follow in our daily lives. "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day."
  • Jul 8, 2010, 12:44 AM
    Donna Mae II
    1 Peter 3:19-21
    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherin few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
  • Jul 8, 2010, 10:02 AM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Donna Mae II View Post
    1 Peter 3:19-21
    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherin few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Read the part in the parentheses. Baptism doesn't actually "put away" anything, it's an act of good conscience. It's the resurrection of Jesus that actually saves us.
  • Jul 8, 2010, 12:08 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Donna Mae II View Post
    Yes, Peter was addressing the Jews who crucified Christ (and all of Israel), but everything in the Bible is for our learning. When Jesus was preaching on the mountain, he was talking to people from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and the region across the Jordan. Does that mean that we don't have to follow what He was teaching them because He wasn't exactly talking to us. No. Jesus' teachings, and the apostles' teachings are things we study everyday, and follow in our daily lives. "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about 3,000 were added to their number that day."

    ABSOULETY, everything was written for our learning... but not everything was written directly to us. When you put all the knowledge we have concerning Peter's preaching that day... we understand that Peter was still a good little Jewish guy.. going to temple. He didn't understand GRACE or what the Lord was about to do. ALSO would like to say that those 3000 jews are part of the body of Christ! But they didn't know it that day... and neither did Peter. If we do NOT put these verses in context the bible contradicts itself and that is simply IMPOSSIBLE...

    Paul has clearly told us what we must do to be saved by the grace of God... Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. ( notice the period) thee end

    Romans is a book written to the church.. which is the body of Christ, which is us who believe. Romans also explains how to be saved and how salvation works. It also explains grace or the God's favor to us for no early reason.

    Let me be clear.. the bible is for ALL of us. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But it must be put into context and Paul says we are to rightly divide it... because it can be wrongly divided.
  • Jul 8, 2010, 12:10 PM
    Donna Mae II
    Comment on dwashbur's post
    It is amazing how everyone can ignore "whereunto even baptism doth also now save us,"--baptism saves.
  • Jul 8, 2010, 12:20 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Paul says we are to rightly divide it....because it can be wrongly divided.

    Can you say this another way? "Divide" has a "negative" (as in taking away) connotation. I don't think it is a common term in Christendom with the meaning you give it. (Dave might have a better handle on this.) I do get out a lot, but never heard that word until this Web site. How about "understand" or some other synonym?
  • Jul 8, 2010, 12:21 PM
    classyT
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Donna Mae II View Post
    1 Peter 3:19-21
    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherin few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    Donna,

    Again, it must be put into context... Peter isn't writing 1 Peter to teach people how to be saved. And... I would also say he is speaking about a spirtual baptism. What actually happens to us when we get saved. Those eight souls in Noah's ark never did encounter water.. never touched any of them. This is clearly spirtual.

    You know on a personal note... when I was in my 20's I met a couple who were involved in a church who believed you had to be baptised in order to be saved. I would go to their cell group and listen to him teach every Monday night. WOW was it good stuff... I learned so much. BUT... I eventually had to stop going because they were constantly trying to get me saved. I WAS saved... I was baptized even.. but because I said baptism didn't save me... they never accepted me as a born again Christian. It was at this time in my life I decided to find out for SURE if baptism was required for salvation. Logically it seemed crazy to me.. because you would have to rely on another human being to baptize you and I couldn't fathom the Lord leaving anything to man. BUT... I never was one to just go by logic... ha ( good thing cause many people think my logic is screwy at best.) :) Anyway I studied and prayed and asked the Lord to please help me know for sure. The truth is... I just wanted to be right with Jesus... I didn't have to be RIGHT with my knowledge of the word. I wasn't just going to go along with stuff just because that was what my parents taught me. After prayer and study.. I believe with all my heart baptism is an outward showing of an inward change. I believe a christian SHOULD be baptized because Jesus told us to. :) I believe when we put the word of God into context... it is crystal clear.
  • Jul 8, 2010, 01:07 PM
    Donna Mae II

    Classy

    I will always believe that baptism is needed for salvation--and you will probably always believe that it isn't. So I guess there is no need for further discussion--I think we're both set firm in our beliefs. But I can always hope that you will see the true meaning of God's word. I know you think that's just my opinion, but I do believe it is fact.
  • Jul 8, 2010, 01:38 PM
    Wondergirl
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Donna Mae II View Post
    I will always believe that baptism is needed for salvation

    I'm with ClassyT on this -- "By grace are you saved, through faith, and not of works [like baptism], lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:8,9

    Water (not grape juice or beer or Kool-Aid Cherry Flavor) is used for baptism, because water is the most accessible liquid there is. But even someone on his death bed, say, at the scene of a car accident or plane crash, can be saved by confessing Christ without being baptized.
  • Jul 8, 2010, 01:52 PM
    dwashbur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by classyT View Post
    Donna,

    Again, it must be put into context...Peter isn't writing 1 Peter to teach people how to be saved. And ....I would also say he is speaking about a spirtual baptism. What actually happens to us when we get saved. Those eight souls in Noah's ark never did encounter water..never touched any of them. This is clearly spirtual.

    Agreed. The word that the KJV translates "like figure" is basically "antitype," which indicates that the rescue of Noah and his family was the "type," or foreshadowing, of what was to come. As classyT says, the water never touched Noah or his family; in fact the 1 Peter verse specifically says they were "saved through," i.e. brought through the deluge and came out safe on the other side of it. Baptism is an "antitype" of this; just as Noah's salvation from the flood symbolized our salvation, so baptism symbolizes it in a more concrete fashion. That's why even the KJV translation renders it as a "figure," not a literal saving because baptism doesn't save anybody. It symbolizes the salvation that happens through faith by grace.

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