Ask Me Help Desk - Before Jesus

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Originally Posted by adam7gur

Read this on page 38
http://www.isr-messianic.org/downloads/hrv_intro.pdf

Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins. Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, [section] 115:
Ge 18:3,27,30,31,32; 19:18; 20:4;
Ex 4:10,13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9,9;
Nu 14:17;
Jos 7:8;
Jg 6:15; 13:8;
1 Ki 3:10,15; 22:6;
2 Ki 7:6; 19:23;
Ezr 10:3;
Ne 1:11; 4:14;
Job 28:28;
Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17,22,23; 37:13; 38:9,15.22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11,17,19,22,26,32; 73:20; 77:2,7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3,4,5,8,9,12,15; 89:49,50; 90:1,17; 110:5; 130:2,3,6;
Isa 3:17,18; 4:4; 6:1,8,11; 7:14,20; 8:7; 9:8,17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6,8,16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14,16; 49:14;
La 1:14,15,15; 2:1,2,5,7,18,19,20; 3:31,36,37,58;
Eze 18:25,29; 21:9; 33:17,20;
Da 1:2; 9:3,4,7,9,15,16,17,19,19,19;
Am 5:16; 7:7,8; 9;1;
Mic 1:2;
Zec 9:4;
Mal 1:12,14.

Curiouser and curiouser, because assuming that this is a correct representation of the Masorah (still checking that), the Dead Sea Scrolls consistently refute the notion. In every passage above that's preserved in them, they follow the Masoretic text in reading the general term Adonai rather than YHWH. To check them out yourself, see my book A Catalog of Biblical Passages in the Dead Sea Scrolls, published by the Society of Biblical Literature Society of Biblical Literature and distributed by Eisenbrauns Eisenbrauns - Publishers, Booksellers, Typesetters - Specializing in the Ancient Near East and Biblical Studies. The Masorah is useful, but far from infallible. The oldest texts we have, and proper text-critical techniques, tell us this passage reads Adonai and not YHWH, and wishing will not make it otherwise.

I'll address the Masorah itself after more coffee...

The discussion between Adam and Dave is pretty interesting and intense too. And at the same time, it is very informative. God bless you both.

I am just wondering that when words mean so much and these experts are talking from the versions which are not English and still we see them not on the same page. Looking at this, what can we say about tons of English versions. And many of the latest versions have already been watered down. Last year I heard on the radio, I forgot which version, but the latest one is gender-sensitive. Why are people tempering with the Word. Why are people trimming Lord God to make HIM fit in their closets? Why are we trying to prove God as biased and unfair? I am not trying to give a new direction to the discussion. Just shared with you all what was on my heart.

יח וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹט, אֲלֵהֶם: אַל-נָא, אֲדֹנָי. 18 And Lot said unto them: 'Oh, not so, my lord;
Here Lot speaks to the two men by calling them my lord.
כא וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו--הִנֵּה נָשָׂאתִי פָנֶיךָ, גַּם לַדָּבָר הַזֶּה: לְבִלְתִּי הָפְכִּי אֶת-הָעִיר, אֲשֶׁר דִּבַּרְתָּ. 21 And he said unto him: 'See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow the city of which thou hast spoken.
Here one of the two men says that he has accepted Lot's request. Does this osund like an angel to you? What kind of an angel could ever do such thing without having a direct order from God? Could the angel here decide by himself whether to accept Lot's request? Doesn't this show that this angel has power to accept or to deny Lot's request? Since when do angels that are sent by God for a specific thing act like that?
כב מַהֵר, הִמָּלֵט שָׁמָּה, כִּי לֹא אוּכַל לַעֲשׂוֹת דָּבָר, עַד-בֹּאֲךָ שָׁמָּה; עַל-כֵּן קָרָא שֵׁם-הָעִיר, צוֹעַר. 22 Hasten thou, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither.'--Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
Here the angel says that he cannot do anything meaning he cannot destroy Sodom he cannot overthrow Sodom until Lot is safe but later כד וַיהוָה, הִמְטִיר עַל-סְדֹם וְעַל-עֲמֹרָה--גָּפְרִית וָאֵשׁ: מֵאֵת יְהוָה, מִן-הַשָּׁמָיִם. 24 Then the LORD caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Here we have the Lord causing rain and brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven and no angel doing so.
כה וַיַּהֲפֹךְ אֶת-הֶעָרִים הָאֵל, וְאֵת כָּל-הַכִּכָּר, וְאֵת כָּל-יֹשְׁבֵי הֶעָרִים, וְצֶמַח הָאֲדָמָה. 25 and He overthrow those cities, and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
He overthrow those cities, the Lord and not an angel.Earlier the angel said I cannot overthrow until you Lot are safe, and now we see that the Lord did overthrow those cities and destroyed them with rain and brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
This is no way for an angelic being to speak or to behave.
I am sorry but the nature of the text does not convience me that those two men were angelic beings.
By the way, do you still believe that only Jesus saw the Spirit?
One more thing , I have not understood if you do not agree with the claim that the name of God was changed to Adonai or Elohim deliberetaly and if that change is misleading?

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam7gur

יח וַיֹּאמֶר לוֹט, אֲלֵהֶם: אַל-נָא, אֲדֹנָי. 18 And Lot said unto them: 'Oh, not so, my lord;
Here Lot speaks to the two men by calling them my lord.
כא וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו--הִנֵּה נָשָׂאתִי פָנֶיךָ, גַּם לַדָּבָר הַזֶּה: לְבִלְתִּי הָפְכִּי אֶת-הָעִיר, אֲשֶׁר דִּבַּרְתָּ. 21 And he said unto him: 'See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow the city of which thou hast spoken.
Here one of the two men says that he has accepted Lot's request. Does this osund like an angel to you? What kind of an angel could ever do such thing without having a direct order from God? Could the angel here decide by himself whether to accept Lot's request? Doesn't this show that this angel has power to accept or to deny Lot's request? Since when do angels that are sent by God for a specific thing act like that?

Angels can do a lot of things on their own. Notice the angel that spoke to Zechariah predicting John's birth; his job was to announce, but he took the initiative to strike Zechariah mute when Zech questioned him. It seems your view of angels is a little skewed.

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כב מַהֵר, הִמָּלֵט שָׁמָּה, כִּי לֹא אוּכַל לַעֲשׂוֹת דָּבָר, עַד-בֹּאֲךָ שָׁמָּה; עַל-כֵּן קָרָא שֵׁם-הָעִיר, צוֹעַר. 22 Hasten thou, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither.'--Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
Here the angel says that he cannot do anything meaning he cannot destroy Sodom he cannot overthrow Sodom until Lot is safe but later [I]כד וַיהוָה, הִמְטִיר עַל-סְדֹם וְעַל-עֲמֹרָה--גָּפְרִית וָאֵשׁ: מֵאֵת יְהוָה, מִן-הַשָּׁמָיִם. 24 Then the LORD caused to rain upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;Here we have the Lord causing rain and brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven and no angel doing so.

You're assuming what the angel meant by "do anything." For all you know, he meant "I can't report back to the LORD that everything is in readiness."

כה וַיַּהֲפֹךְ אֶת-הֶעָרִים הָאֵל, וְאֵת כָּל-הַכִּכָּר, וְאֵת כָּל-יֹשְׁבֵי הֶעָרִים, וְצֶמַח הָאֲדָמָה.

[snip]

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This is no way for an angelic being to speak or to behave.

Again, according to whom? We see angels doing a lot of really interesting things in the Bible, your arbitrary restrictions on them notwithstanding.

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I am sorry but the nature of the text does not convience me that those two men were angelic beings.

I already told you I don't have a problem with that.

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By the way, do you still believe that only Jesus saw the Spirit?

John saw a dove. That's as far as I can go.

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One more thing , I have not understood if you do not agree with the claim that the name of God was changed to Adonai or Elohim deliberetaly and if that change is misleading?

I'm not entirely sure I follow that question, but if I'm reading it correctly, no, I do not believe such changes were made. The Dead Sea Scrolls show otherwise, among other things. I'm also not convinced that's actually what the Masora says, but I'm still trying to track that down. The file on my computer with the full Masora Magna on it seems to have vanished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Read this on page 38
http://www.isr-messianic.org/downloads/hrv_intro.pdf

Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins. Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, [section] 115:
Ge 18:3,27,30,31,32; 19:18; 20:4;
Ex 4:10,13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9,9;
Nu 14:17;
Jos 7:8;
Jg 6:15; 13:8;
1 Ki 3:10,15; 22:6;
2 Ki 7:6; 19:23;
Ezr 10:3;
Ne 1:11; 4:14;
Job 28:28;
Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17,22,23; 37:13; 38:9,15.22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11,17,19,22,26,32; 73:20; 77:2,7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3,4,5,8,9,12,15; 89:49,50; 90:1,17; 110:5; 130:2,3,6;
Isa 3:17,18; 4:4; 6:1,8,11; 7:14,20; 8:7; 9:8,17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6,8,16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14,16; 49:14;
La 1:14,15,15; 2:1,2,5,7,18,19,20; 3:31,36,37,58;
Eze 18:25,29; 21:9; 33:17,20;
Da 1:2; 9:3,4,7,9,15,16,17,19,19,19;
Am 5:16; 7:7,8; 9;1;
Mic 1:2;
Zec 9:4;
Mal 1:12,14.

Having now finally had a chance to check out the Masorah, your man on the web page is reading it wrong. It says nothing about a word substitution; all the Masorah says is that the word Adonai appears with this particular spelling 134 times.

Genesis 19 specifically calls these two individuals angels in verses 1 and 15. That's good enough for me.