Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Christ's promise; we call it the Roman Catholic Church and as promised she will persevere even from the gates of hell, possibly even the BOOK.

---

The members of the church are Christ's, not belonging to any other then HIM. Christ is the Bishop and Shepherd of the soul (1 Peter 2:25). Love for Christ Jesus prevails againt evil.

People are astonished by Christ's doctrine.
Our Lord and Saviour is at the gate!Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock :And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is HE.

Revel 22:14 Blessed are they that do HIS commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Has the Catholic denomination shown all good fruits? A good reason not to follow man's doctrine.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

John 10:3 To HIM the porter openeth; and the sheep hear HIS voice: and HE calleth HIS own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes, they represented the Shewbread in Moses' Tabernacle, the bread in the presence of God.

---

Disagree!

The Apostles are not symbolized as the Bread of Life that is place before us. Christ is the Bread of Life, the sure bread known as the food from God given in sacrifice.

John 17:2 As thou hast given HIM power over all flesh, that HE should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given HIM.

John 6:3 For the bread of God is HE which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The Word made Flesh
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

This is what Peter was told to feed HIS sheep! As did the Apostles request in prayer that it would be God's will for them to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes the Apostles served the faithful; no they didn't 'serve' the Holy Spirit in the sense of that their role was to offer prayers, sacrifices, and libations like a Levite priest.

---

Their role was to do the will of God. Always praying to God in request that by God's hand of strenght they might be properous. And it was by spiritual guidance in the gospel of God's Begotten Son.

Romans 1:9-10 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

~The Spirit dwells within the adopted children of God, that have been begotten again of Christ

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

If I were to sift through the number of times “Kingdom of God” was mentioned in the New Testament I'd get about 227- times where the phrase is mentioned. I think I could get a pretty good picture of Christ's Kingdom. In the Gospel of Mathew alone we have a complete image of the 'establishment' of a Kingdom. To fulfill the covenant of the Old Testament prophecy demands Christ to establish the 'Kingdom'. Where do you suppose it went – are you going to argue that the Romans defeated the Kingdom of God in some untold saga?

---

Revelation 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

It is up to us in this world on earth to answer the calling of One Hope, or remain doomed with satan and sin.

I am in full assurance Christ is Lord in The Kingdom of God

2 Chronicles 13:5 Ought ye not to know that the LORD God of Israel gave the kingdom over Israel to David for ever, even to him and to his sons by a covenant of salt?

Christ is the Key of David, and new Jerusalem is betrothed to Christ.

The Kingdom of God that Christ rules over as the Shepherd that watches over HIS sheep, Bishop of all souls. Stands at the door to come in and give sup. Parable, properation of the Kingdom of God. (Mark 4:26 Luke 8:10)

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:55)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Disagree!

The Apostles are not symbolized as the Bread of Life that is place before us. Christ is the Bread of Life, the sure bread known as the food from God given in sacrifice.

---

Nobody doubted that you were – disagreeing that is. But, what then are we to make of the Christ saying he was the ‘meat’? Why would Christ feed his bothers bread when we all know that man doesn’t live by bread alone? Why would he feed us a manna that had a 24 hour shelf life? – you may recall that when the manna fell from heaven, it needed to be collected, processed and cooked in short order, or it would spoil. What value is a food like that? Sounds like Twinkie food to me – a worthless cake surrounding a sweet pasty center, but of no real nutritional value. How long can such sustenance last? I’ve been on Twinkie binges - can’t develop any muscle, just fatty weight that drags you down. Christ reminds us that our “fathers ate manna in the desert, and are dead. (John 6:49). Golly Gee Wilakers Horace! Sounds like all bun to me; such a short lived food can’t take a man through an eternity? Bread without meat is not fulfilling, the bread which is the knowledge of God is a worthless burger without the meat.

Suppose I could give you a real man’s food – something that sticks to the ribs, lasts an eternity, so to speak? As Christ said, why labor “for the meat which perishes;” why not work for “that which endures unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you.” So where’s the beef? Christ tells us where, and flat out, and it ain’t bread, “For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (Cf. John 6:26, 55). You’ll find that Catholics like a 'real meat' burger of faith not a empty pastry on their buns. The meat is in the real presence of Christ.


JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:55)

---

Perhaps you did not know that scripture speaks of the meat as knowledge and skill in righteousness.

And from what the Catholic denomination does teach, their commune gathering is one with sinners unskilled in righteousness. They are still the babe who uses milk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

But, what then are we to make of the Christ saying he was the 'meat'?

---

Christ is the branch of righteousness that was promised. Every Word of God is in teaching us to walk having the spirit, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Why would Christ feed his bothers bread when we all know that man doesn't live by bread alone?

---

We live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4 Luke 4:4)

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

~in Christ

Joe, without reprintine your post #76, I will try to clarify it for you.

I asked how Catholics know they are filled with the Holy Spirit and then showed what happened in the early Church when believers received this experience. They spoke with "tongues".

That is the initial evidence of the Spirit baptism. It is not the end or even the most important function of the Holy Spirit.

There are fruits of the Spirit, and gifts of the Spirit, two different things.

The Spirit filled believer may go on to receive one or more of the gifts of the Spirit which are given according to God's will for that life.

These gifts are then used by the believer to continue the ministry that Jesus began.

Clearer now?

Have you ever seen anyone receiving the Holy Ghost?

Here is the problem in any discussion of this kind.

Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(KJV)

Carnal does not necessarily mean sinful. It simply means natural.

The carnal mind is one of the things dealt with in salvation, when the mind is "renewed" and can understand spiritual things.

Look at verse 8 above. The natural mind would say that anyone living on Earth can not please the Lord because they live in a body of flesh.

That idea is totally wrong, because "flesh" has to be understood as not having any spiritual life, and that life is Jesus Christ living in the believer through the Holy Ghost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Perhaps you did not know that scripture speaks of the meat as knowledge and skill in righteousness.

---

Nonsense, flesh is meat – you’re getting nowhere solo.

Then you don’t know what Moses wrote? The Jewish Sacred tradition of Passover celebrates the first born of every family who ceremoniously eats the flesh of the sacrificial lamb; a commemoration when death passed over the firstborn of Israel. Don’t you watch movies? Good grieve Charlie Brown, everybody our age has seen Charlton Heston’s, ‘The Ten Commandments’ – you should’ve seen it a dozen times since its’ release in 1956. What Got Yul Brynner, aka Rameses, so mad that he went chasing after Moses in a rage? Rameses’ son was killed by the curse he himself uttered. Moses saw it coming and the ‘BLOOD’ of the sacrificial lamb was ordered to be placed over the door header so the curse would ‘PASS OVER’. And I get this part of the story right without the use of a BOOK – who’d a thunk it! Since then, (no, not since 1956 -, since Moses) part of the commemoration of Passover was to sacrifice the lamb in a special feasts and customs. At the home, there was the custom of ‘Pesachim’ which included a search the house for leaven bread. The household was cleared of common bread (leavened) which represented a blotted, vainglorious and arrogant sinful nature. It was hung over a lamp to burn out the leaven (corruption). You might recall Paul’s words “Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened.” (1Cor 5: Judaism was steeped with metaphoric visions of leavened and unleavened bread that was culturally ingrained in the Jewish psyche, as it was Christ’s and the Twelve.

One of the many ecclesiastic feasts and ceremonies took place over about 15-days with the festivals ending on the Saturday before the day of the Pasch (fifteenth). On day 14, the male members of the family met in the synagogue or in the Temple and a sacrificed a lamb, part of which was carried home accompanied with the blood . The first born ceremonially ate the flesh of the Lamb and the blood was ceremonially placed on the door jambs. In Judasim, this is a real sacrifice, that is as opposed to a spiritual sacrifice. We know this because of the presence of blood related to the meat where spiritual sacrifices didn't include the reference to blood. The point being that this would have been much better understood, along with all the nuances of a multiple of images representative to the Jew; especially to the Pharisees. Now, re-read John 5 and 6 keeping these images in mind.

Most of John 5 regards other spiritual rituals however there is a sense of getting ready for Pesach (Passover) This period on Judaism yearly cycles is called Shalosh R’glim. The man in the pool that was told to get up and walk, efforts to get in the cleansing water are of particular importance in Judaism. But, what’s important to us is where Christ says to his Twelve; “If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me.” Notice that Christ appeals to their intellect as Jews - no demand for faith is made, not to the heart; maybe we can discuss this later, but it's important that the intellect is required of the Twelve. The question at the end of this chapter is cataclysmic to Christians without a teaching Magisterium, “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

It’s a good question isn’t it? But we know little of Moses compared to our Jewish brothers, how then will we believe His words? The answer is in the Kingdom, His Church, His teaching Magisterium; she feeds the belly, the intellect, the heart and the soul. But, I know you’re disagreeable, so let’s continue. The miracle of 5,000 isn’t as much about the souls saved that day, as it was the millions saved from a people made unleavened sitting on that hillside that day.

Pasch was at hand, a sacrificial lamb was required, and for the first born of the Kingdom – among 5,000 were a special Twelve. Notice it is the men that are told to sit, notice that it is bread that is feed them – we’re not told; it's likely unleavened bread. Right out of the Jewish tradition of Seder. To complete the costom we need the blood sacrifice of the Lamb for the Passover meat of the first-born.

Well shiver-me-timbers; look what happens; Christ tells the first-born of his Kingdom, eat meat. He’s definitely not playing to the chick Pharisee’s cows who want moo miracles, you might say, ‘Punt the burger, pass the Chikin”! Not, at all! Christ says Moses' bread didn’t save. Why, because the bread of the intellect isn’t meat enough to last an eternity. The intellectual bread only lasts for this world. But, Christ will provide the beef that sticks to the soul's ribs, he says “I am that bread of life," the intellect of the living. I am the meat that death passes over, I am the meat of life, a flesh for the life of the spiritual world; a meat for the first-born of the Kingdom. The simple fact of the matter is that “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.” A sacrificial meat for the first born in His Kingdom is given to us all; death will pass over.

Quote:

---

And from what the Catholic denomination does teach, their commune gathering is one with sinners unskilled in righteousness. They are still the babe who uses milk.

---

Ok, am I supposed to get mad? Or what kind of reaction are you looking for here? I do a great impression of a mad Italian scientist.

Quote:

---

Christ is the branch of righteousness that was promised. Every Word of God is in teaching us to walk having the spirit, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)


We live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4 Luke 4:4)

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

~in Christ

---

How do you know, not knowing what Moses wrote of ; remember what Christ said, “If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me”

JoeT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

Joe, without reprintine your post #76, I will try to clarify it for you.

I asked how Catholics know they are filled with the Holy Spirit and then showed what happened in the early Church when believers received this experience. They spoke with "tongues".

That is the initial evidence of the Spirit baptism. It is not the end or even the most important function of the Holy Spirit.

There are fruits of the Spirit, and gifts of the Spirit, two different things.

The Spirit filled believer may go on to receive one or more of the gifts of the Spirit which are given according to God's will for that life.

These gifts are then used by the believer to continue the ministry that Jesus began.

Clearer now?

Have you ever seen anyone receiving the Holy Ghost?

---

Is it clearer now – No
Have I seen the receipt of the Holy Ghost – No
Do I believe that there is a way to tell by observing a physical transformation – yes but I’ve not seen it and would consider it out of the norm.

JoeT

JoeT,
Well said.
When I finally came to believe that I left a breakaway Protestant sect from the Kingdom of God on Earth and became a Catholic.
That was over 35 years ago.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

Here is the problem in any discussion of this kind.

Rom 8:3-8
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.(KJV)

Carnal does not necessarily mean sinful. It simply means natural.

The carnal mind is one of the things dealt with in salvation, when the mind is "renewed" and can understand spiritual things.

---

I somewhat agree with you up to this point. Where I disagree is that the flesh referred to doesn't sin in and of itself. Rather I'd suggest that the 'flesh' here is that which is in the likeness of sin in the intellect (or mind) does the flesh siin, it's worldly. The body (flesh) is moved by the intellect and the soul, having no means to move itself, it cannot be held to the Law.

Quote:

---

Look at verse 8 above. The natural mind would say that anyone living on Earth cannot please the Lord because they live in a body of flesh.

---

Here is where we differ. First this is indicative of holding the Lutheran doctrine of the 'depravity' of man. That is to say, man cannot be holy; that he is so depraved that even his 'good' is sin. I put this syllogism in the 'bunk' category. Second, that's not what's being said here at all, because in verse 4 we see the righteousness of the law for those who do not walk "as if after the flesh". The converse is also true, that the “law is fulfilled in us that walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” In short, being a living breathing human is not a sin in and of itself. (Cf. St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, Homily 13). Thirdly, as clarification, the flesh discussed here is not the Flesh of Christ in John 6. The 'Flesh' referred to in John 6 is the 'meat'. That is the body soul and Divinity, the essence of Christ. It's referred to as the Real Presence of Christ.

Quote:

---

That idea is totally wrong, because "flesh" has to be understood as not having any spiritual life, and that life is Jesus Christ living in the believer through the Holy Ghost.

---

The obvious mistake in this statement is that Christ is another form of the Holy Spirit. Christ is not simply another form of the Holy Spirit, they are not the same Person. The man Christ had two natures, one of man, one of Christ that is God. The Holy Spirit has one nature, that of the Holy Spirit, different from God and Christ.

Flesh does have a spiritual capacity in the sense that our final state in heaven is that of men, body and soul. Man is not complete without the soul nor is the soul complete man without the body. It's the soul that moves the body through the intellect. The essence of man is body and soul.

What is meant in these verses is “sin no longer wars against the law of our mind, neither does it lead us away captive as heretofore, for all that state has been ended and broken up, and the affections cower in fear and trembling at the grace of the Spirit “(ibid.) Paul says, “But they that are in the flesh cannot please God,” and continues, “But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.” This is the same sense as is being said in John 15:19, “If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” Once we turn toward spiritually, we are no longer following after the worldly, and Christ is in us – see vs. 10


JoeT

JoeT,
Yes, Jesus Christ IS a separate divine being from God the Holy Spirit and God The Father, but those three beings are the makeup of the one true triune God
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Nonsense, flesh is meat – you're getting nowhere solo.

---

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Ok, am I supposed to get mad? Or what kind of reaction are you looking for here? I do a great impression of a mad Italian scientist.

---

Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

How do you know, not knowing what Moses wrote of ; remember what Christ said, “If you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also: for he wrote of me”

JoeT.

---

The Words Commanded by The Lord, that Moses Wrote as a Song. Words that are to be taught today, and words that will be sung by God's children who will go through the gates of heaven (Deu 31:19 Deu 32:46)(Revel 15:2-3)

The Song of Moses (Deu 32:1-46)

Deu 32:1-3 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Deu 32:31 is true today in denominations even as it was then, as the Pharisees were the enemy and judges over the people. Teaching in God's name, the doctrine of man. (Luke 12:1) (Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. )

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

~in Christ the unleavened bread of Passover

(not of man's doctrine raised and fed with leaven)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.


The Words Commanded by The Lord, that Moses Wrote as a Song. Words that are to be taught today, and words that will be sung by God's children who will go through the gates of heaven (Deu 31:19 Deu 32:46)(Revel 15:2-3)

The Song of Moses (Deu 32:1-46)

Deu 32:1-3 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Deu 32:31 is true today in denominations even as it was then, as the Pharisees were the enemy and judges over the people. Teaching in God's name, the doctrine of man. (Luke 12:1) (Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. )

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

~in Christ the unleavened bread of Passover

(not of man's doctrine raised and fed with leaven)

---

So, if you hear those words of Moses, then you understand these;

"you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation... Moses came; and calling together the elders of the people, he declared all the words which the Lord had commanded." Ex 19

This is 'Church'. When was this repealed? Does this 'Kingdom' still exist? Is there a statement in scripture that transfers power to the 'New Kingdom'?

JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

So, if you hear those words of Moses, then you understand these;

"you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation... Moses came; and calling together the elders of the people, he declared all the words which the Lord had commanded." Ex 19

This is 'Church'. When was this repealed? Does this 'Kingdom' still exist? Is there a statement in scripture that transfers power to the 'New Kingdom'?

JoeT

---

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Note the importance of obeying the Lord's voice! The very same meaning is found in the NT, Jesus said "My sheep Hear MY Voice" . Only then shall ye be a preculiar treasure unto me. The people that obey and hear the voice of OUR LORD are above all people known as the children of God.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

A Kingdom of priests, priests of Jehovah. Hearing the Word of God and follow HIS Word(Christ). Again Joe those that follow Christ walk having the spirit, acknowledging the skill in righteousness(strong meat)

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You Joe, told me the Catholic article released which you agreed was true reported that the members of the Catholic denomination were sinners. They walk in sin, which means they walk in darkness. Until they put on the new man as (Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness) by their own admission they remain as babes in need of milk, and easily beguiled by satan.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


walk having the spirit~in Christ

It wasn't Luther, it was Paul that wrote:

Rom 7:18
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(KJV)

Without the new birth that Jesus taught Nicodemus about, we have NO righteousness.


Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

The unsaved person CANNOT keep the Law. The first commandment is to love God without reservation, an a sinner can't do that and therefore has broken the whole Law.

True that the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are not the same person.
However, the Holy Spirit is the only member of the Godhead that we have contact with in this dispensation, and He is one (in perfect unity) with the Father and the Son.

It is the will of the Father that every believer be filled with the Holy Spirit.

And every believer (not every human being) is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

You still are not answering what you personally know about the Holy Spirit baptism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Note the importance of obeying the Lord's voice! The very same meaning is found in the NT, Jesus said "My sheep Hear MY Voice" . Only then shall ye be a preculiar treasure unto me. The people that obey and hear the voice of OUR LORD are above all people known as the children of God.

Ex 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

---

Yes, there is an importance to 'obey'. Which means what?

Quote:

---

A Kingdom of priests, priests of Jehovah. Hearing the Word of God and follow HIS Word(Christ). Again Joe those that follow Christ walk having the spirit, acknowledging the skill in righteousness(strong meat)

---

And that JoeT fails, or sins mean that the Kingdom falls? God's Kingdom doesn't sound very strong that it fails because of its weakest link. Where is that great solo mind that can show me where Holy Scripture says the Kingdom failed or has fallen? JoeT rhymes with St. Thomas show me.

Quote:

---

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

---

Do I take this to mean that you individually are the Kingdom of God? Or are a member of the Catholic Church?

Quote:

---

You Joe, told me the Catholic article released which you agreed was true reported that the members of the Catholic denomination were sinners. They walk in sin, which means they walk in darkness. Until they put on the new man as (Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness) by their own admission they remain as babes in need of milk, and easily beguiled by satan.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


walk having the spirit~in Christ

---

Answer this. If we can't find in Scripture that the Kingdom of God has been disbanded, where did it go? Are you the Kingdom of God?


What happens if Christ disbands the Old Testament and the Kingdom of God? Now Christ can't be the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, it doesn't exist?


To my way of thinking the Catholicism is keeping the faith with Christ. We understand God's Word to be immutable. Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Testament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. It's here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Church” building.

JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Yes, there is an importance to 'obey'. Which means what?

---

Answer the calling.. Follow Christ, HEAR HIS VOICE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

And that JoeT fails, or sins mean that the Kingdom falls? God's Kingdom doesn't sound very strong that it fails because of its weakest link. Where is that great solo mind that can show me where Holy Scripture says the Kingdom failed or has fallen? JoeT rhymes with St. Thomas show me.

---

Sin means people failed, beguiled by satan. It means they have free will to answer the calling, and follow or they fail. They are accountable to reap what they sow.

Those that follow Christ do not fail, they do not sin because they are sanctiified in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The new man which walks in righteousness and holiness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Do I take this to mean that you individually are the Kingdom of God? Or are a member of the Catholic Church?

---

Christ dwells within me, and I walk to follow HIM. It is not an organizational structure, it is spiritual awareness of a heavenly place in Christ. He never leaves me or forsakes me.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Eph 3:9-10-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the [U]principalities and powers in heavenly places {{{might be known}}} by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Answer the calling.. Follow Christ, HEAR HIS VOICE


Sin means people failed, beguiled by satan. It means they have free will to answer the calling, and follow or they fail. They are accountable to reap what they sow.

---

Then the devil made me do it? Why am I promised discipline for failing when the devil did it?

Quote:

---

Those that follow Christ do not fail, they do not sin because they are sanctiified in Christ with the Holy Spirit. The new man which walks in righteousness and holiness.

---

Really, what happened to Judas?

Quote:

---

Christ dwells within me, and I walk to follow HIM. It is not an organizational structure, it is spiritual awareness of a heavenly place in Christ. He never leaves me or forsakes me.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

Eph 3:9-10-11 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the [U]principalities and powers in heavenly places {{{might be known}}} by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

---

So, I guess the answer is yes, you hold yourself to be the Kingdom of God? Interesting.


JoeT

Interesting!

Joe contends that the Word of God is immutable (look up the meaning) and then says that the word of a man (the Pope) can alter or supercede it.

Which is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

Interesting!

Joe contends that the Word of God is immutable (look up the meaning) and then says that the word of a man (the Pope) can alter or supercede it.

Which is it?

---

This was a pretty cheap shot, primarily because your statement is false on any level you'd like to consider it. Does this mean you can't debate on the merits of your case? Or is it that you would rather look to ad Hominem comments to detract from your weak claims.

JoeT

All:



The faithful in Christ know that apostolic teachings are important, as faith is believing in something yet unseen. Thus the intellect must know of the existence of the true Christ, His Messianic ministry, and His teachings before faith can work. Thus the Apostles were told to go and baptize and teach to all nations. In this regard do Catholics conform their beliefs to the God's Truth. Thus when I say “I have the right to believe anything in the bible that does not conflict with the Magisterium,” I'm placing my trust in God Truths and those infallible Christ given axiomatic Truths. Truth is immutable. If it is Truth for Peter, its Truth for us today, and it will be Truth tomorrow, it can't be destroyed regardless of how distorted non-Catholics present it. If you ever wanted to use the precepts of Solo Scriptura as the rule of faith , the only way to achieve a true understanding of Scripture, you need these eight individual principles, Scripture, Tradition, the Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, and natural reasoning.

I've said it before, and I'll keep right on saying it, while I am allowed to have private interpretations, my faithful duty is to conform, or better still reform, those interpretations to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Faithfull Christians of any stripe have this obligation to Christ. Furthermore, as one of the faithful, it is my obligation “to strive so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all people throughout the world.” When in good conscience I can't conform, I remain silent until, as you say, I see the light. With prayer, perseverance and God's good graces I will conform heart and mind to the Magisterium – that infallible teaching arm of Christ.

In trusting my eternal soul to the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God I am trusting in God's promise to Moses of a Kingdom that not only continues the eternal Seat of Moses, but that of her authority.

The Old Testament tells us of the coming of the Kingdom in the Messianic age. The Kingdom is meant for the sanctification of the twelve tribes as well as the Gentiles. Even kings are to serve and obey (Psalm 21:28 sq.; 2:7-12; 116:1; Zechariah 9:10). It's clear that a universal faith and common worship is implied, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared in the top of the mountains, and high above the hills: and people shall flow to it. And many nations shall come in haste, and say: Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob: and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth out of Sion, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem.” (Micah 4:1-2) A unified worship, One worship under the authority who teaches and keeps the Divine Truth for all; “And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem: half of them to the east sea, and half of them to the last sea: they shall be in summer and in winter. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name shall be one. “(Zechariah 14:8)

Prophecies in the Old Testament tell of a future Kingdom holding the authority in the rule of the Messiah; Psalms 2 and 71; Isaiah 9:6 sq. We see that authority in the shepherd that leads his sheep between the fields of Divine Truth (Ezekiel 34:23; 37:24-28).

Taking the seat of Moses, Christ is the High Priest of the Kingdom of God, “The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.” (Psalm 109:4) And that priesthood is institutionalized in the Kingdom, “For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 1:11). The priesthood in this Messianic Kingdom is a continuation of the priesthood in the Old Testament with continued sacrificial offerings; “Thus saith the Lord: if my covenant, with the day can be made void, and my covenant with the night, that there should not be day and night in their season" (Jeremiah 33:20)

The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:

The Roman Catholic holds that both Scripture and tradition must be a harmonious foundation for the rule of faith to be infallible. Consequently, this makes what we call Apostolic tradition which is usually found in the form of papal and council decrees. It is the only legitimate and infallible interpreter of the Bible.

On the other hand, we have a view (primarily Protestant) that canonical Scripture are the only infallible basis for the rule of faith . Each individual holding the principle of Sola Scriptura asserts the right to interpret the Scripture. Most Protestants form distinct groups of likeminded sole arbitrators of the rule of faith , i.e. Lutheran, Calvinist, Methodist, etc. Since each individual has the same rights to authenticate what the Scriptures represent then there are as many different rules of faith as there are Protestant denominations; for that matter hypothetically we could end up with as many denominations as there are Protestants (Since the number of Protestants faiths are increasing exponentially it won't be long before we reach this asymptotic state). Only one can represent an absolute truth; which is infallibly correct and which isn't? Which has Christ's Authority, and which doesn't?

We see that Protestantism isn't 'one' faith and can never be 'one' given that each is the arbitrator of his own faith. As you may recall Christ prayed, “And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me: that they may be one, as we also are.” (John 17:11). This is the Tradition guarded, kept, and taught, ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC FAITH.

We take God's Word as being immutable. God's promises Moses a Kingdom and nowhere do we find a verse that terminates the Kingdom of God. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom of God with a priestly hierarchy (the Jews were to be governed by their priests), where the presence of God was veiled. The difference being that the mosses' sacrifice was given up to be consumed by God conversely Christ is sacrificed at the altar continually every day to consume use, bite by bite. (Cf. Tractates on the Gospel of John, CHAPTER 26,) newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to overthrow himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. It's here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of today's “nation building” it is called Christ's “Kingdom” building.

Where is the Church and the authority in scripture? The precepts and doctrine are obeyed out of obedient love for the Church; we do it willingly, like a new bride obeys her husband. I've read more than a few books in my life; except for one, in the context of 'Church', not a single one returned my love for them and promised Hope of redemption. The Church is constituted for the redemption of the faithful. Its claim as the Messianic Kingdom is the envy of the world. As a consequence it is always under attack by the 'dark side'.

At the synagogue at Nazareth,”And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears.” (Luke 4:21) Christ lays claim to His prophecy as Messianic King, in person, in his 'real presence'. If you will read your book, you'll see that Christ claims his universal Kingship in the New Solomon. “And behold more than Solomon here. The men of Ninive shall rise in the judgment with this generation and shall condemn it; Because they did penance at the preaching of Jonas. And behold more than Jonas here.” (Luke 11:31); THE KING IS HERE is the proclamation, one greater than the Temple. (Matt 12:6). Lord over the Sabbath (Luke 6:5). The personification of Elias (Mat 12:6), He requires our faith based on His Divinity (John 6:29), “29 Jesus answered and said to them: "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." To glorify the Father he created a in their midst, the Law and the Prophets had been, He said, but a preparation (Luke 16:16; cf. Matthew 4:23; 9:35; 13:17; 21:43; 24:14; Mark 1:14; Luke 4:43; 8:1; 9:2, 60; 18:17).

The Church is absolutely necessary for redemption; this is explicit in baptism in particular and the other sacraments by extension, ministering to the faithful. A corporate family of adopted 'sons of God' we are redeemed through the graces given freely. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: he that believeth not shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

The body is animated by the soul, so is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ animated by its soul the Holy Spirit. The third century St. Origen (185-232) who once said “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, i.e. outside the Church, none is saved" was eqully unyielding concerning Apostolic teachings, warning that Holy Scripture should not be interpreted based on our own judgment, instead said interpretation should be "on the rule of the Church instituted by Christ".

Yes, I do place my faith in the Catholic Church, particularly what you call the Roman Catholic Church. I receive in return a direct connection with the Divine, a guide and rule over my faith, along with the administrations of sacraments Christ ordained for His Kingdom of redemption.



JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Then the devil made me do it? Why am I promised discipline for failing when the devil did it?

---

Are you a child and think like a child? It is in scripture teaching.
1 Corinthians 13:11-12-13 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.


Are you unable to discern right from wrong? Are you unskilled in righteousness? You claimed to have knowledge of the meat, but speak of one who drinks milk.

We are warned to watch carefully, and not fall asleep.

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Really, what happened to Judas?

---

Scripture has told us that Judas Isariot was beguiled by satan. His own free will to do as he felt would be profitable.

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

So, I guess the answer is yes, you hold yourself to be the Kingdom of God? Interesting.
JoeT

---

I trust in the word of God that as a good and righteous servant, confessed my faith in the begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. And in full awareness in being begotten again unto the living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. I have been raised, adopted as a child of God, into heavenly places.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

. If you ever wanted to use the precepts of Solo Scriptura as the rule of faith , the only way to achieve a true understanding of Scripture, you need these eight individual principles, Scripture, Tradition, the Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, and natural reasoning.

JoeT

---

According to Christ Jesus, and the words He spoke to His disciples.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Do you really think God has forsaken us to be followers of men. Those who follow Christ, walk having the spirit within them. Just as Christ Himself is said to be one with the Father having the Holy Spirit. They the disciples were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul spoke in the spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

And as we are today, they were kept by the power of God through One Faith

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


John 17:6 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

and make our abode with him.

---

Some animals can read, only man reasons. Who do you think Christ was referring to when he said 'OUR'?

If you love Christ then His Church will make abode with us.

JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Some animals can read, only man reasons. Who do you think Christ was referring to when he said 'OUR'?

---

metaph.of God and Christ by their power and spirit exerting a most blessed influence on the soul of the believers

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

If you love Christ then His Church will make abode with us.

JoeT

---

His church are the members who walk in the light of righteousness, begotten again from the dead(crucified) and buried(baptized), by the resurrection of Christ Jesus, and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit through baptism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

metaph.of God and Christ by their power and spirit exerting a most blessed influence on the soul of the believers

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

---

The mansions are multiple - plural, there is only one 'Father's house'- singular. 'I' told you - singular

We make our residence with him- the 'many of us' will come live with him. Christ and his buddies are coming over for dinner - AND HE'S bringing the BAND!


JoeT

You write a good argument, Joe.

But you see, it is those very traditions and many of the writings of earlier "fathers" that I take issue with. They are the words of men, and when they do not conform to the writings of the original Apostles, I reject them as false.

Charles Chiniquy pointed out over 100 years ago that it is impossible to conform to the words of the "fathers" because the "fathers" didn't even agree with each other on several important issues.

It is not only the RCC that has deviated from the original Gospel message. Most of what is loosely called Protestant has done the same thing.

The church that is not doing the works that Jesus did is not The Church but is a counterfeit

PS: Since catholic means universal Christian, that makes me a catholic priest, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

You write a good argument, Joe.

---

Thank you.

Quote:

---

But you see, it is those very traditions and many of the writings of earlier "fathers" that I take issue with. They are the words of men, and when they do not conform to the writings of the original Apostles, I reject them as false.

---

So, you were expecting words of mice? Would words of mice be anymore reliable? Certainly they were men, as men they made mistakes. That is where the Magisterium of the Church comes into play, both guiding and teaching in God’s Truth.

Quote:

---

Charles Chiniquy pointed out over 100 years ago that it is impossible to conform to the words of the "fathers" because the "fathers" didn't even agree with each other on several important issues.

---

You don’t trust the Early Fathers, but you would rather take the word of Charles Chinquy? How do you know they didn’t agree with each other on matters of faith and morals? Have you read them? If so have you found where the Early Fathers conflict with Catholic doctrine on matters of faith and morals? I haven't.

Quote:

---

It is not only the RCC that has deviated from the original Gospel message.

---

I disagree with this premise made here.

Quote:

---

Most of what is loosely called Protestant has done the same thing.

---

I wouldn’t know, except for one - and you don't want to hear it.

Quote:

---

The church that is not doing the works that Jesus did is not The Church but is a counterfeit

---

Agreed.

Quote:

---

PS: Since catholic means universal Christian, that makes me a catholic priest, right?

---

Ok, I got to admit – that was a funny!!

JoeT


P.S. Back in the late 50's a wise Bishop once said, "Few Americans hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church". (Bishop Fulton Sheen)

sndbay ,
So are you saying that there are people like you who do not commit any sins.
That seem to be what you are saying.
Your slap against Catholics that sin are walking in darkness is unfounded, for according to you anyone who sins is walking in darkness, that includes me.
I lost my temper the other day, that was a sin, but I still walk in the light of God's forgiveness for I repent of it.
It seems to me that you are falling off that high horse you are riding. EVERYONE WHO IS HUMAN WALKING THIS EARTH SINS so the bible says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay ,
EVERYONE WHO IS HUMAN WALKING THIS EARTH SINS so the bible says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

Fred, perhaps you can answer these questions.

(Gal 3:13)
Did Christ set us free from the curse of sin?

(1 Peter 3:18)
Did Christ suffer for our sin, so that we can be quickened by the spirit?

(Hebrew 9:28)
Did Christ once offered to bear the sins for many? And will those that follow HIM appear before Him without sin?

(Hebrews 10:10)
Are we sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all?

(Romans 8:2)
Does Christ's law of life in the spirit set us free from death and sin that we were doomed by?


(1 Cr 1:3 1 Th 4:3 - 4:4 2 Th 2:13 1 Peter 1:2)
Fred, Do you know the meaning of being sanctified through the Holy Spirit?


Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

If you know all this is written in scripture ( Word of God), why would you think we that follow Christ can not walk having the spirit of promise? Christ dwells with those that are sanctified. The Holy Spirit can not and will not dwell in sin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

Fred, perhaps you can answer these questions.

(Gal 3:13)
Did Christ set us free from the curse of sin?

---

Christ died on the cross for all sins. We knew this. The verse isn't disparaging of the law per se, but rather that part of the law that casts curses. Paul doesn't say there is no longer a Law, but rather that the covering of sins by ritual and customs no longer holds sway. Thus Paul says, “That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.” The Law is still there but no longer is it to, as it were, be worn on the outside but rater internalized, brought into the soul.

Not only is this verse being mischaracterized but it's not applicable here. Even when rendered anyway you want the verse only says the obvious and doesn't add to the discussion.

Quote:

---

(1 Peter 3:18)
Did Christ suffer for our sin, so that we can be quickened by the spirit?

---

Again you cited a verse that states the obvious. Of course Christ died for the sins of mankind. But how does being ”inspired” or having the spirit enlivened help with the discussion here. This verse too doesn't add or subtract from any of the arguments made.

Quote:

---

(Hebrew 9:28)
Did Christ once offer to bear the sins for many? And will those that follow HIM appear before Him without sin?

(Hebrews 10:10)
Are we sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all?

(Romans 8:2)
Does Christ's law of life in the spirit set us free from death and sin that we were doomed by?

---

All of these verses are similar in that they don't add to our conversation. If they do, I'm at a lost as to how. Maybe somehow you've gotten the wrong impression of what Catholicism is; we're Christians, in fact we're a Christian body that pre-dated Luther's 'Evangel'; we're not criminals who are doomed to hell.

Quote:

---

(1 Cr 1:3 1 Th 4:3 - 4:4 2 Th 2:13 1 Peter 1:2)
Fred, Do you know the meaning of being sanctified through the Holy Spirit?

---

1 Cor 1:3 is part of the salutation of Paul's message - you know something like 'howdy folks'. He invites us to the Church for our Grace and our peace which comes from the Father. I prefer verse 13 in the same epistle, its more germane to the question here and I've been asking you this same question for well over a year now! “ Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1Cor 1:13)


Overall, you haven't addressed any of the topics we've discussed here, you definitely haven't shown, or 'disproven' the Church. I can't find any reason for the post except that you get some perverse pleasure out of citing hell and damnation as if you were slinging mud.


Unable to understand your point, I'm quite frustrated; if you have a point it's muddled and clouded. So, what is your point?


JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Unable to understand your point, I'm quite frustrated; if you have a point it's muddled and clouded. So, what is your point?

JoeT

---

The point is in the Word of God review: Jude 1:1-25


1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

The point is in the Word of God review: Jude 1:1-25


1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen HIM, neither known HIM.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

---

To acknowledge isn’t to abide – simply acknowledging Christ isn’t to abide in Christ – in fact to abide would be to ‘work’ and the merit would be not to sin. So, to me, in your terms, this is WORK theology; very Catholic

Ok, Christ destroys the work of the devil. AND? AND? How does this add to the conversation? Are you saying the Catholic Church is the work of the devil? Are you saying those in the Church are the work of the devil? Who and what does this apply too? And what does it mean? If you’re going to pass around dispersion like they’re compliments at least you can do is tell us why.

As far as Jude is concern this doesn’t add anything appreciable either. So where are you going with all this – are you ever going to let us in on the secret?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

1 Cor 1:3 is part of the salutation of Paul's message - you know something like 'howdy folks'. He invites us to the Church for our Grace and our peace which comes from the Father. I prefer verse 13 in the same epistle, it more germane to the question here and I've been asking you this same question for well over a year now! “ Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (1Cor 1:13)

JoeT

---

I will forgive your exampled mockery that you speak towards the Word of God. Perhaps your playful speak is nothing intentional, but I would advise you against childish speech, that gives the impression of less then a sincere heart towards what is written in scripture.

Paul's speech as in example of full awareness, addressing those members in the church of God, which is at Corinth, and states that they are sanctified in Christ Jesus.

He did continue with his words of greeting and spoke of the grace and peace in the mist of them from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

However Paul was clearly warning them to speak the same things, as was given to them as breathren unity in the name of Christ Jesus. Making sure to be perfectly joined in the same mind and judgement to the fellowship of God's Son Jesus our Lord. Man's doctrine and man's traditions do not hold stedfast in the auchor of Christ Jesus that brought us in the flesh the Word of God. We must recognize that Christ Himself would not speech of Words other then what was told to HIM by the Father. Christ is the perfect example to follow.

Paul's straight way of saying there are contentions/strifes among them.Strifes are stated plainly in Romans 1:29. This causes confusion rather then the unity of perfecting faith in Christ Jesus. There is only One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in us all. (Eph 4:4-5-6)

We are to walk in love, rooted and grounded that Christ may dwell in our hearts by One Faith (Eph 3:17) And the glory be unto Christ in the church of members throughout all ages (Eph 3:21)

~in God's Grace

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

And what does it mean? If you’re going to pass around dispersion like they’re compliments at least you can do is tell us why.

---

Because I was answering Fred posting when you intervened with your belief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay ,
It seems to me that you are falling off of that high horse you are riding. EVERYONE WHO IS HUMAN WALKING THIS EARTH SINS so the bible says, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

---

If the appearance is that I am falling off a high horse, I can only remark to say, your accusation was once done to Christ in the same manner.And it is written the same will be done to us that follow HIM in full awareness of HIs worthiness.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering HE hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sndbay

I will forgive your exampled mockery that you speak towards the Word of God. Perhaps your playful speak is nothing intentional, but I would advise you against childish speech, that gives the impression of less then a sincere heart towards what is written in scripture.

Paul's speech as in example of full awareness, addressing those members in the church of God, which is at Corinth, and states that they are sanctified in Christ Jesus.

He did continue with his words of greeting and spoke of the grace and peace in the mist of them from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

However Paul was clearly warning them to speak the same things, as was given to them as breathren unity in the name of Christ Jesus. Making sure to be perfectly joined in the same mind and judgement to the fellowship of God's Son Jesus our Lord. Man's doctrine and man's traditions do not hold stedfast in the auchor of Christ Jesus that brought us in the flesh the Word of God. We must recognize that Christ Himself would not speech of Words other then what was told to HIM by the Father. Christ is the perfect example to follow.

Paul's straight way of saying there are contentions/strifes among them.Strifes are stated plainly in Romans 1:29. This causes confusion rather then the unity of perfecting faith in Christ Jesus. There is only One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, through all, and in us all. (Eph 4:4-5-6)

We are to walk in love, rooted and grounded that Christ may dwell in our hearts by One Faith (Eph 3:17) And the glory be unto Christ in the church of members throughout all ages (Eph 3:21)

~in God's Grace

---

Well tell me how we are one in unity? Your views are guided by a subjective reasoning that looks inward for it's authority. My faith on the other hand has completely different views; two different Christs. Where is the unity? Why we likely have the same final goal, your faith looks to a different faith for its hope; how is that unity? Your faith says nobody can be holy, all of mankind is depraved, incapable of holiness; my faith looks for all its members to persevere until holiness. How is that unity? My Church is meant for all those in the universe, yours is privately interpreted. How is that unity? Your church buries the Apostles, my reveals every word they wrote or taught? How is that unity?


So let me ask, what would you have me do for 'unity'?


JoeT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Thank you.

JoeT

P.S. Back in the late 50's a wise Bishop once said, "Few Americans hate the Catholic Church, but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church". (Bishop Fulton Sheen)

---

You seem to misuinderstand me. I don't hate any church. I am simply pointing out that most of what is called the church doesn't measure up to New Testament standards.

You didn't answer how many believers you have seen filled with the Holy Spirit, so I assume you haven't seen any.

How many healings by the power of Jesus have you observed?

Have you ever heard a spoken prophetic message uttered under the power of the Holy Spirit?

Where are the spiritual credentials of your denomination?

Mark 16:20
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(KJV)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Well tell me how we are one in unity?

---

We are each in unity, when we have the fullness of knowledge in Christ Jesus, One Faith full of grace and truth through the Holy Spirit. One must remember, we are given in accordance to the will of God.
(Eph 4:13)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Your views are guided by a subjective reasoning that looks inward for it’s authority.

---

The circumcision of the heart in love towards Christ Jesus. Sanctified throught the Spirit.

Luke 11:34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.

John 1:16-17 And of HIS fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness

I follow Christ Jesus, and through the Holy Spirit full of grace and truth, I do walk having the spirit .

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

My faith on the other hand has completely different views; two different Christs. Where is the unity?

---

Two different Christs? Perhaps you will explain this comment?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Why we likely have the same final goal, your faith looks to a different faith for its hope; how is that unity?

---

Then I tell you, what I hold as One Hope is the One Faith in Christ. Unity with Christ our One Lord and Saviour.

What I trust is that the church are members in fellowship with Christ the One Body. Each member called in One Hope, in Christ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Your faith says nobody can be holy, all of mankind is depraved, incapable of holiness;

---

No that is untrue. Sanctified means holy just as the 7th days was in the beginning. We are sanctified through the Holy Spirit, full of grace and truth.

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for HIM shall HE appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

my faith looks for all its members to persevere until holiness.

---

All are Called to be members of One Body Christ Jesus

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

My Church is meant for all those in the universe, yours is privately interpreted. How is that unity?

---

Free will choice in who you follow. You follow a rock, and call Him all authority .

I follow Christ to eat and drink of the spiritual Rock.

Eph 1:2-3-4 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under HIS feet, and gave HIM to be the head over all things to the church Which is HIS Body, the fulness of HIM that filleth all in all. ,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Your church buries the Apostles, my reveals every word they wrote or taught? How is that unity?

---

Untrue Joe, I just posted the fullness of truth and grace the Apostles wrote, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They held stedfast in the spirit with our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus. The One Body, One Spirit, One Hope, One Faith, One Lord, and One God and Father above all, who was through all and in all things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoeT777

So let me ask, what would you have me do for ‘unity’?

JoeT

---

Deny yourself, and walk having the spirit. Suffer yourself to follow Christ in righteousness, hearing HIS voice. Be baptized in full awareness that you are buried with Christ and able to raise as He raised. Be begotten again unto One Hope in Christ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by galveston

You seem to misunderstand me. I don't hate any church. I am simply pointing out that most of what is called the church doesn't measure up to New Testament standards.

---

No, it was me that misunderstood, the fault was mine. I didn't think anything of using the word 'hate' it was only part of the quote. It was meant to imply that many criticize the Catholic Church without really knowing it.

Quote:

---

You didn't answer how many believers you have seen filled with the Holy Spirit, so I assume you haven't seen any.

---

I thought I answered the question, none that I know of. But, I'm not sure there would necessarily be any outward physical signs. As there should be, if there is a permanent inner change toward holiness I'd suggest I've meet many. Generally, not all, Catholics don't believe that the Holy Spirit 'possesses' a person. Rather, the Holy Spirit dispenses certain graces with which the will is free to cooperate with or not.

Quote:

---

How many healings by the power of Jesus have you observed?

---

I know of a Catholic priest who is a healer, I think, in New York. I do know of several charismatic priests here, but have never seen a healing.

Quote:

---

Have you ever heard a spoken prophetic message uttered under the power of the Holy Spirit?

---

there are several charismatic parishes here have had prayer sessions where the participants 'speak in tongues' knowing a few of the participants I came to find out there are several Church rules that the priest must follow to insure this isn't somehow demonic.

Quote:

---

Where are the spiritual credentials of your denomination?

Mark 16:20
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.(KJV)

---

The Kingdom of God, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the Church of Jesus Christ – it's not a denomination; it was commissioned by Christ. See Matt 16. Her head is Christ who is heaven, her earthly substitute or vicar is the Bishop of Rome, i.e. the Pope.

JoeT

P.S. I forgot to add, Catholics are generally more charismatic than non-Catholic Christians. We look for God to act in our lives through nature or spiritually. They regularly have daily mass, vespers, Stations of the Cross, Hours, and other similar prayer and devotional activates. I took the opportunity to join a group on a holy pilgrimage last year.