You may not have seen the answer to Chuck's post. Its not that we believe it, we were just relating what the Bible says.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triund
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You may not have seen the answer to Chuck's post. Its not that we believe it, we were just relating what the Bible says.Quote:
Originally Posted by Triund
I was going to post the same thing but I figured they would just disregard it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
I would not dare make the statement that the killings were any part of God's vision for the world, that would be very foolish. Anyone who has read the bible, logically, would surely see that for themselves. God's plan was to create man and give him an eternal life without the fear of death or sorrow. He had also created him with a freewill, so that man would be unique, and have his own sense of self awareness that he could also be happy. Satan's plan was to do anything he could to destroy God's plan, so he deceives man through this freewill. That is the only way that satan can affect man. Compared to God or satan, man is as a child. Man has very little understanding compared to either. No matter how advanced we evolve, we will never have the ability to match the ability or understanding of either God or satan. Which is one of the reasons God gave his son as a sacrifice to us, which I won't get into. God has always given us a choice and a warning to those choices. Just as in sodom and gamorah, those people were given the choice and warned about the consequences. Of course, satan is always working hard to make sure that man makes the wrong ones. It is such an amazing deception, using ways that are in most ways incomprehencable. God promises those who follow him an eternal life beyond this mortal one. Satan promises nothing, and will not only try to destroy you here, but also keep you from God's truth and eternal life as he did with Adam and Eve. So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth. Man decided to follow the wrong path in the beginning, and every death from there on out has been the direct influence of satan, not God. And to be fair, if you would like to blame man as well, then I would have to agree. For if it wasn't the week mind of man to listen to a lie in the beginning instead of listening to God, then death would not have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
Sabrewolfe, Wonderfully said with a heart of love, praise and glory shown to God. But we as children of God, can't leave out what Christ brought to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
If mankind could stop pointing the finger and be accountable to their own actions, what a difference it would make to us all. One finger points the blame, and three fingers point back at yourself.
God's finish work is in HIS grace that was sent to us. We can not continue to think, we have no hope of being all that He created us to be. In the begotten Son of God we are begotten again (1 Peter 1:3). The one death we are offered without fear is on the cross with Christ. Crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20) and then able to raise from the dead with Christ once we are baptized, living here on earth in newness of life (Romans 6:4 Col 2:12) In Christ righteousness, we are born again like mankind was before Adam and Eve were beguiled by the devil. Created in HIS likeness as Genesis 1:26-27 had written.
We today have the same request God gave Adam and Eve because we have the newness of life through Christ' blood, and through baptism. Live in obedience of God's will! Christ was the branch of righteousness promised to HIS children.
If mankind choose to die a second death that is without Christ, it is mankind's "free will" that has chosen to do so. We should not fear the death with Christ, but fear the second death of the soul that is chosen in following satan. The devil does attempt to take mankind's soul and the lust of disobedience with him to hell.
Christ made us perfect in HIM. Follow Christ in righteousness, bearing the cross, and flee from the devil.
~grace be with you all
Refer offered in proof to the Spirit of truth. Read them, it's your choice.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Realize we do not die when we leave this world, but our souls return to God in heaven. It is love for your flesh body that has a desire to live on earth where we are presently. Trust God, there is a better home above with HIM.
You obviously haven't paid much attention to what has been said on this subject. I'm not saying that God has killed, I don't believe in a God that takes direct action as described in the bible. All I have done is refer to the biblical passages that state that God killed people. So, in fact, that God has killed is biblical truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
All the rest of your post deals with WHY God killed. You use the example of Sodom and Gomorrah and you state, accurately, that they were given a choice to turn away from their evil ways. I have never said that God was not justified in killing (according to the bible) or that these killings occurred arbitrarily and not because of the wrong choices people made, etc.
All I have done is state that, according to the Bible, God has killed over 2 million people. This is irrefutable, so please stop trying to refute it. You can try to justify those killings all you want, I won't argue on that score. But the statement I quoted is not valid. Again, I'm not saying that God has killed, the Bible is!
So the only valid answer is something like:
"Yes God has killed millions, but he has done so because..."
But to make the statement you did is to deny what the Bible says.
Scott, I do not disagree with what you have said. God our Father has shown how He, throughout the OT destroyed evil, and the wickness that came to this world. How the people were unable to overcome or conquer satan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
What was of the OT and is today of the NT has changed what will occur today. God's work is done in Christ Jesus. We are allowed the hope of HIS calling in ONE Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father of all, above all and through us all.
It is up to us today, to put evil at the feet of Christ. What the devil does today is like the scripture say concern people falling asleep and not watching carefully in doing righteously. The devil is a enemy force that can effect our life. And the devil goes up against those he wants to capture, and cause them to hate, lie, and kill. Satan tempts us hourly to follow the desires of lust and worldly treasures in disobedience of God's Will.
God the Father leaves evil within the world so not to destroy the hope of each coming to answer the call of hope. God's hope has Christ standing at the door ready to come into the hearts of those that are willing to follow. We that are willing to follow in obedience today, must set the example, and pray for those who are beguiled by satan.
We war today against evil and wickedness. In hope of conquering satan and his followers. We find hope and justice in law and military power to help give us in protection, peace, and love for all mankind. We try to look out for each other, and that is a very loving and righteous gift to give to others.
Does death come by this battle taking place today? Or was death of the flesh in the OT a final existence for those taken? No I don't believe death of the flesh is final. They have returned to the Father, and were placed on one side of the gulf that puts division between good and evil until the return of Christ. I trust in the God of the living, who calls in hope, and does not make puppets out of HIS children. I believe in HIS glory and power, knowing He answers HIS children in their prayer. Knowing we suffer at the hand of satan and can fall in his darkness.
~ in Christ
Ok, so you retract your statement "So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth." Thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
As for the rest of your response, you are welcome to your beliefs. I'm sorry, but they are not anywhere near my beliefs.
Scott, love you lots, but it wasn't Sandbay that said "So to say that God has killed would be totally the opposite from truth" it was Sabrewolf that said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
I'll go hide in the corner now. ;)
Ooops. Sorry sndbay, sabrewolfe.
My statement was never such as that. The spirit of truth in scripture tells us that evil was and will continued to be destroyed. When God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it, HE then beheld and repented him for doing it. God said that evil will perish, and it is their reward for unrighteousness. They have forsaken the right way to go their own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
I am never sorry for what I believe, and rest in the branch of righteousness God delivered to us. God will never forsake us, and has spoken the spirit of truth through HIS begotten Son, Jesus Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
sndbay,
There are times when it seems that God has forsaken a person but one must keep in mind the whole picture.
For instance it just happened to me.
The doctor told me that the new pain I was experiencing was die to the fact that I had developed 2 hernias, one large and one small.
This is on top of the fact that I am a diabetic with bad legs and a colostomy pouch to catch my body waste.
I must keep in mind that in a couple of months I'll be 77 years old and my health problems are due to my former life style and the consequences of living in this world.
None of them are due to God's fault.
In fact I should be surprised that I have lived this long.
I think that God is keeping here for some reason.
I think it may be in answer to my prayers that with His help I can still in some way be of service to Him and His people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Never should it be spoken that God forsakes us. Man forsakes himself, and others, but God's promise is true in HIS Word and in Grace given to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The body or flesh is of this world, does walks in danger of corruption, and suffers. Men that committe fornication, do sin against their own body. To committe fornication is to give one's self in love to another. Men do this in disobedience, when they do not obey the commandments. Loving God above all is to be members within the body of Christ.. His flesh and His bones. This is not a building built by man, but this body is the Saviour Christ Jesus. Walking as one with Christ having the spirit to walk in HIS righteousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Men talk and speak words of Christ, but they forget that Christ Himself spoke not HIS own words, but what was given by the Father for Him to speak. Men were given those same Words of Truth in the Word of God, yet they turn and go astray to teach their own doctrine and reap in their own traditions.
This world reaps of generations in darkness, but we are called to follow the light in Our Lord Christ Jesus. The fruit of goodness and righteousness to prove everything acceptable in the eyes of God, and doing HIS Will on earth as it is in heaven. Unity in One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and Father above all, through all and in us all.
Deny your flesh body, and follow Christ!
Fred, may you be all God created you to be. In HIS strength, and will to be done. May evil bow down and flee from you, so that no harm is done. In Jesus Name we pray. Amen
One death to die on the cross with Christ Jesus. Raised in baptism to live and follow the light in Christ Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Children of the promise,
~in Christ
Scott, where do I begin on this one. In that statement alone, you contradict yourself. First you say that you are not saying that God has killed, that you don't believe in a God that takes direct action as described in the bible. Then you say that you are referring to biblical passages that state God killed people and then you state it as fact that God has killed is biblical truth. Well, which statement do you want to stick with? If you don't personally believe in a God that directly takes life, then you are saying that the bible is a lie according to your statements. And if that is the case, what bible or theological record do you draw your conclusions for your own beliefs?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGem
First of all, I totally agree with you in that I also do not believe that God directly takes life. It was not his decision that man would ever die. The bible states that fact. God created everything, the whole universe, and set the rules in motion for everything to operate accordingly. We were not created for it, but it was created for us. Within it, we had rules and bounds to live by. But because man decided to break those rules, with the direct influence of satan, we chose death as a result for all existence. We chose that penalty, not God.
Let's say as an example, that a man is standing in front of a large fire. The man knows that the fire is extremely hot. He knows that the fire can destroy him without taking a college course in physics, he was given all the natural senses to easily make his conclusions. The man also knows that the elements involved for this fire to exist, the wood, the oxygen, the very materials used to ignite the fire, were not created by him, but by God. And God also endowed the man with all of his senses to understand the rules of the fire, that the fire is hot and can destroy his flesh if not used with caution. So through all these gifts, man, through his freewill, can use this fire as he so wishes- to keep him warm, to cook his food, to bring light to darkness. Now let's say, for what ever reason, the man decides to jump into the fire, knowing full well what the fire will do to him. The man burns severely and dies. Who do we blame for the man's death? Do we blame God for creating what was necessary for the fire to exist and creating the physics of the fire to be destructive? Or the man for choosing, despite his knowledge of the fires ability to destroy him, to jump into it? This same analogy applies to every death in the bible. And the outcome of those questions give the same answer to who has killed.
sabrewolfe,
I found your analogy on the man and fire to be very interesting and informative.
Thanks.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes, it is interesting and it also highlights another interesting area. That is, determinism versus free will. We could state the problem in this way:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Determinism says that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He has controlled everything that has taken place and he will control everything that will take place in the future. He knows that an insect has been squashed underfoot and he knows all of our innermost thoughts.
This being the case God knows beforehand every choice we are going to make and the outcomes of that choice. In other words, what everyone does is predestined and predetermined by God.
Given the fact that there are different formulations of determinism, where does free will fit into the equation? I don't know the answer. I would like to think that the above formulation is the answer,but that doesn't say much for free will.
TUT,
I have pondered that often long ago.
I think that the answer to that is that our free will may be known by God, and that he knows what it will be before we make it BUT... we are still the ones who make that choice.
Had we not made it God would know have had foreknowledge of it because it was never made.
Such is the situation. It is not that God interfered with our free will in any way for I believe he does not do so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Determinism, a concept that would seem true, but would be the direct opposite of God's intent itself. God's word is all truth, the purest whole of truth. When he gave man his freewill, he gave man power of his own destiny through his own choices and own mind. If God were to know exactly what man's next move would be, why would he have tested man from the beginning? If he were to know man would have failed the test of eating from the forbidden tree, what would be his point in creating the situation in the first place? God does not create useless situations in which he knows the outcome just to amuse hisself. No, God's whole purpose of creating man was for his creation to decide for himself that he loved his creator by his own accord. Otherwise, what benefit would it be to God? Why wouldn't he just create beings who were predictable, those who couldn't make their own decisions, just to have servants to worship him. As with the angels, they were also created to have freewill. In all their heavenly knowledge, they too can decide for themselves, just as Lucifer did. If God knew that, why would he have created him?
Of course, there is much of God's creation that is pre-determined, and he has used this pre-determination throughout time. Just as man can predict the actions of his creations, as an engineer who creates a machine, so does God. God designed the heavens and the earth, and knew when certain things would happen, as in the great flood. He knew when the water underneath the earth would be under enough pressure to spring from the ground, as it did.
sabrewolfe,
True.
God being God knows all throughout what we call time,
But...
Because there is no time as God knows it for he IS timeless, he can and does see into what we call the future.
But...
God does not interfere with our free will which often gets we humans into am lot of trouble often for many.
Just look at the world wide war concerning terrorists whose free will is based on hate and violence.
Rape, murder, and other terrible thing we humans do is based on free will.
Also the good things people do are based on free will.
Those good are the things that God likes to see us do with our free will.
It is a practice that I hope and pray that all mankind will come to do in the future starting in this year of 2010.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
True!Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
Not true! God has relinquished control over humans and what we do. He has given us free will.Quote:
He has controlled everything that has taken place and he will control everything that will take place in the future.
True.Quote:
He knows that an insect has been squashed underfoot and he knows all of our innermost thoughts.
The problem with this statement is that it assumes that God is in our timeline and at our present and that the future is still to happen. For God there is no difference between the past, present and future for God is outside of our timeline. So God knows what "has happened" in the future in the same way as we know what has happened in the past.Quote:
This being the case God knows beforehand every choice we are going to make and the outcomes of that choice. In other words, what everyone does is predestined and predetermined by God.
The other problem with this statement is that it does not follow logically that because God knows the future he therefore controls the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elscarta
Hi elscarta,
I still see an inherent problem if we are prepared to accept determinism and free will at the same time.
Consider this paradox:
I can remember the past, but if I could remember the future as well then that would demonstrate I can control the future. What it also shows is that I don't have free will.
For example, In the future I know that I went on a quiz show and I had a choice of two doors. Behind the first door was a million dollars, behind the second door was nothing. I chose the first door and dramatically changed my life and the lives of other people.
If I decided that I am going to exercise my free will I might deliberately and foolishly choose the wrong door. To do so would negate determinism.
In this world free will and determinism are incompatible.
God does not exist within our timeline, true. He is ageless and timeless. But God created the heavens and the earth and it's inhabitants to exist within a timeline. So how could God know it's future? Better yet, why would he want to?
God is not as complex as everyone thinks he is. Were we not created in his image? That goes beyond physical capacities.
What benefit would it be to God to create something only to know it's every move and it's destiny?
God created man for man to WANT to follow him, not because it is pre-destined that he does so.
God relinquished man's destiny to man alone, from the very beginning.
When we try to make God out to be too complex, we lose further understanding of him.
sabrewolfe,
I believe that God is far more complex than we think He is.
The attributes and abilities of God are far more than we mortals can understand.
God the Father and the Holy Ghost are spirits with the knowledge and power to create this very vast universe and life within it. Do you think there is anyone here who can fully contemplate that humungous ability?
I think not.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Tut, God is the one who can remember the future not us!Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
The way I see it our future, for God, is predetermined by our future selves.
Let me try to explain this using your example.
In the future you are on a quiz show and are asked to choose one of the two doors. You have free will so you could choose either of the two doors. Now at the moment you don't know which door you will choose and in fact until the instant that you choose you still don't know for certain which door you would choose (you may have made a decision about which door you would choose but you could still change your mind in that last instant). Eventually there is a moment when your future self will make that decision, using free will.
Now God can see the future as well as he can see the past so he can see your future self making that decision and so knows the decision that you freely choose to make.
Furthermore free will provides for the possibility of different choices not the necessity of making those different choices.
Sabrewolfe, someone once used the following analogy to explain how God can exist outside of our timeline and yet see all of our timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
Imagine that our timeline is a filmstrip. Each instant in time is a frame of the film strip. Each frame of the filmstrip is determined by what happens/happened in the previous frame.
We are currently in one of the frames in the middle of the filmstrip. We can see the previous frames (our past) but cannot see the next frames (our future) but God is outside looking at the whole filmstrip. He sees every frame; the past frames, the present frame and the future frames are all the same to him!
Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.
Your logic is faulty since you admit to God being ageless and timeless and not in our timeline yet suggest that God should not know what is going to happen in our timeline. This means that God needs to wait for our timeline to finish in order to see if man chooses to follow him which implies that he is in our timeline!Quote:
What benefit would it be to God to create something only to know it's every move and it's destiny?
God created man for man to WANT to follow him, not because it is pre-destined that he does so.
God relinquished man's destiny to man alone, from the very beginning.
Acura, I'm not saying that God is not more complex than we think He is. I didn't mean that to be taken out of context. What I was trying to explain is that He is not so complex as to be beyond our understanding of why and He does things. Through His word, through science, through nature and common sense, His reasoning is easier to understand if we would pay more attention instead of assuming something that has no bearing on our reach of comprehension. It is for that same reason that Jesus taught with parables and analogies relating to common situations during His earthly existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
There is a very huge flaw within your analogy. Each frame of the film strip cannot be viewed until it is filmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by elscarta
[QUOTE=elscarta; Note that no frame is predetermined by God since he allows us free will and yet he knows everything that has happened/will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
Hello elscarta,
Yes, isn't your analogy a tautology, i.e.. A v ~A
Hello again elscarta,
On second thought you could say that there are two different types of determinism. The one we are familiar with and the one that exists outside of time and space. This would make them distinct entities. This outcome would create a new problem of identity.
Tut
TUT317,
I think that everything is possible with God as He chooses.
AND that His identity is where ever and whenever He so wishes.
Fred
Hello Fred,
What you are asking is that does God have to uphold the laws of physics and logic?
I would say that he has to. The laws of physics and logic have applied in the past and probably will apply in the future.
This is reflected in the unchanging nature of God. In other words, God does not make it up as he goes along.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TUT317
That is correct if you are in the timeline! But God is outside the timeline. This means that God does not have to wait for time to pass to see the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by sabrewolfe
If you insist that time needs to pass before God can see the future then you are saying that God is in the timeline.
Here is another way of looking at it. I am currently 42 years old and let us suppose that I will die when I am 100. Now imagine God is currently in the timeline with me and steps out of the timeline. How long will it take God to get to the point in time when I die?
Being outside the timeline he instantly is there even though it takes me another 58 years to get there in the timeline. Now since he is outside the timeline he can step back in the timeline anywhere so lets imagine him stepping back in the same instant he originally stepped out. For God the next 58 years have already happened since he has already been at my death in that instant that he left the timeline but for me they are still to happen!
Hi elscarta,
My earlier posting was a bit vague in relation to the problems I see with the film strip analogy. I will attempt to be a bit more precise.
Firstly, when we are talking about the film strip we are of course talking about only one piece of film.
For us the frames exist the past and present. Frames do extend into the future but we can't see what is on them. The point is that there is some future event on them, but as far as humans are concerned, for all intention purposes the film ends at the present. From our point of view we are yet to be photographed in the future. From God's point of view the future has been photographed.
I would argue that the film strip stops at the present or it doesn't. We can't have it both ways. In other words, we can't say that the future is there and not there at the same time. I don't think saying that it all depends on A POINT OF VIEW solves the problem. In other words, when we come to examine this strip in terms of identity we will run into all sorts of logical problems.
As it takes you 58 years to get there, it also does for God. God does not jump into the future. The difference in time between man and God, is that He is eternal, meaning, He always was and always will be. He does not exist in an aging timeline. For Him, what is a million years to us is but a second to Him. That's the only difference. The scale of observation. God cannot jump into a future that is not here yet. What has not happened, does not exist, until it has happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by elscarta
The bible says that God created the heavens and the earth in seven days, even though each day to Him could have been a million years to us. But even still, it took Him time to do so.
Acura,
I would like to get back to the original purpose of your thread of the devils influence in the world. What are some of the more deceptive ways do you see him influencing mankind in these current days?
I think that the devil does work in mysterious ways and some of them are through temptation.
Temptation causes we human much grief in many ways such as greed, avarice, gluttony, gelousey, hate, confusion, anger, lust. And more.
Fred
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