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Originally Posted by arcura

Joe,
Thanks for posting that.
We should also keep in mind that when we pray The Lord's Prayer we are asking "thy kingdom come"
When Jesus taught that to his apostles The Church had not yet been established so he was teaching them to pray for it to come along later than at that time.
Now we do have The Church, the mystical body of Christ, here on earth so that part of the prayer has been answered and continues to be so
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

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Fred:

I must have past this without realizing I should have commented.

The Kingdom of God is, at least in part right here on earth and populated with the Church Militant, those of us here on earth, the Church suffering, those of us in purgatory, and the Church Triumphant, those of us in Heaven.

Paul's letter to the Ephesians shows that Christ intended to leave his Kingdom here on earth in the capable hands of Peter and the rest of the Apostles. The reason is clear, it's in these verses of Ephesians where we see the depth of what John saw in Revelations chapter 1, “from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead and the prince of the kings of the earth, who hath loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father. “ (Rev 1:5,6)

Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners: but you are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God: Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

These verses show the supporting elements of the Kingdom on earth, the apostles, the prophets, and Jesus Christ as the Corner stone. Even buildings today, we find the name of the owner, founder on the corner stone along with the date of completion. Some would say that Christ is the foundation on which our faith is based: and he is. But, he's the foundation in the sense of its founder, not the foundation on which the structure is bound. The Roman Church holds that Christ is the founder on which Peter the stone foundation was placed. Through God's grace, we are able to participate in the construction and occupation of the Kingdom.

In whom all the building, being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.

This foundation is built on both Gentile and Jew; as well as the Apostles, the Prophets and its' founder Christ. A union “framed together”, because “being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread." (Cf. 1 Cor 10:17). A universal Kingdom of God of one root, bound together in spirit of the cornerstones purpose.

And so we say “And hath made us a kingdom, and priests to God and his Father” inherited by default from the Jews, It was from the Sanhedrin that the power transferred given to a nation yielding the first fruit, Christ (Cf Matt 21:43). This Kingdom is fulfillment of God's promise to Moses, to build a priestly Kingdom, and a holy nation. (Ex. 19:6)

The point is, while you've been waiting for the Kingdom to come, it's been just around the corner the whole time.

JoeT

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Here is a simple passage from the Bible for you to think about in light of the fact that my previous post asked you for a simple agree or disagree, that is a simple yes or no answer to each of the statements.

Matthew 5:37 (King James Version)
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

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I neither yea or nay to any of your questions, nor did I swear by oath. Perhaps you should review the teaching you have referenced (Matthew 5:33)

Was your goal to use the Word of God as a stumbling stone before a sister in hope that she enter temptation? Who would hope to do so to anyone?


A Prayer to be offered:

Abba I cry that you will search the hearts of those on this forum, and help us in our works of love. Destroy the evil that waits in the hearts of some, and bring instead the joy of love towards all mankind. In the spirit of our Lord and Saviour, I ask in His name for this blessing. Amen

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Originally Posted by sndbay

I neither yea or nay to any of your questions

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That is the whole point! I asked you to state whether you agreed or disagreed with the listed points in my recent posting and instead of giving me a straight forward answer you once again wandered off on a tangent.

Why is it that you are unable to just tell me whether you agree or disagree with the listed statements?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Was your goal to use the Word of God as a stumbling stone before a sister in hope that she enter temptation?

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What temptation is there in giving a straight forward opinion to the truthfulness of a statement?

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Who would hope to do so to anyone?

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If this appears so incredible to you then why are you accusing me of doing it? It is you who have suggested the above, not me! You do not know me and yet you judge me capable of doing such a thing!

Your accusation reveals much about how you view others who may have different opinions to you.

Thread discussion

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

How would you follow Christ Jesus? Why would you follow Christ? This thread could bring attention to the amazing truth of who Christ is in our daily life.

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We follow Christ by loving our enemies, and praying for them which despitefully used us. We bless them that curse us, and bear a humble heart to be merciful, as our Father also is merciful.

Why we do this is because we walk in the spirit of truth. We follow Christ because He is the Rock that delivered us from the power of darkness, and redeemed us from all iniquity. Love for Christ is what Peter was revealed, and was told Christ would build the foundation of His church upon.
" Love for Christ Jesus"

I would like to add to my earlier entry about,'public language' and 'private language'. There is strong support for language to make sense it needs to be public. That is it is used in a way that it is generally in keeping with the accepted meaning of the culture and the time.

In this thread there appears to be a large amount of disagreement as to what a world/words mean. Why the disagreement? It appears as though,'language has gone on a holiday'.

For example, if I asked someone to give me a definition of the word ,'passion' They might consult a home dictionary and come up with the answer, (1) Intense sexual love (2) Any strong emotion (3) great enthusiasm... Sorry, wrong on all three.

My fault, I neglected to mention that I meant 'passion' as used in the 17th century, not the 21st century
Sorry about the confusion.

Sndbay, once again, instead of answering questions with straight forward answers you duck and weave around the issue.

This time your last post implies that we have gone off thread. Let me explain to you how everything that I have posted is relevant to the original thread.

You asked How and Why would you follow Christ. The answer to these two questions is found in the Bible. Therefore it is important to be able to interpret the Bible correctly to determine the answers to your questions and this is where the problems start.

The Bible has and is interpreted by many different people in many different ways. This is evident by the vast number of Christian denominations in the world, and if you look closely at what each says you would find that the differences are not small and insignificant but are major and contradictory.

You have stated in a previous post that

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Originally Posted by sndbay

there is no different denominations in those that walk in the Spirit of truth.

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This implies that you believe that not everyone is walking in the Spirit of Truth, which leads to the question of how to determine which of the many different denominations is walking in the Spirit of Truth.

You have also stated that

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Originally Posted by sndbay

The result of interpretation for everyone is given from the Holy Spirit, and therefore the will of God.

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It is the words which I bolded in the above quote that all my posts have been about. Since there is only One Truth, they imply that God wills people to not believe in the Truth but to believe in a falsehood.

My example regarding transubstantiation illustrated this point:

If transubstantiation is true then those who believe it is false believe in a falsehood, otherwise if transubstantiation is false then those who believe it is true believe in a falsehood. Either way there is a group of people who believe in a falsehood.

God does not will a person to believe in a falsehood for this goes against the very nature of God which is Truth.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life.

The logical conclusion to be drawn from this is that what some people interpret the Bible to mean, no matter how sincere they may think they are in that belief, is NOT the truth as God would have us know but is a lie propagated by the father of all lies Satan.

Your postings imply that you believe that you have the true interpretation of the Bible and others who disagree with you follow man's doctrine, but if you ask those others they in turn would say just as vehemently as you do that they have the true interpretation of the Bible and that you are the one who is wrong.

The only way to resolve this is to appeal to a higher authority, Jesus understood this and that is why He built His Church on Peter and promised that Satan will never overcome His Church and gave Peter authority to proclaim what is the Truth.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Now Peter is no longer around, so we cannot appeal to him directly, but the Church which Jesus built on him still exists. There is only one church that can claim an uninterrupted link to Peter and that is the Catholic Church!

Some argue that Jesus did not give this authority to the Church, but this implies that He has left His Church, since the time of Peter's death, without a final authority to turn to. Jesus knew that today, we need a final authority to turn to as much as the early Church did!

So the solution in deciding who is correct in their interpretation of scripture is to look at what the Catholic Church says is the Truth about it.

Hello elscarta,

I am interested in your conclusion. You say, 'The logical conclusion to be drawn from this is that what people interpret the Bible to mean, no matter how sincere they may think they are in that belief, it is NOT the truth as God would have us know but it is a lie propagated by the father of all lies Satan'

My question is how does a sincere belief end up being a propagated lie? I would have thought that a sincere belief is just a sincere belief. It may well turn out that it is a false sincere belief but that is irrelevant.

Consider this hypothetical and give me your response.

Fred Smith said in 1650 that,' Reason is a slave of the passions' (reference to my earlier post). I am going to debate this statement with a friend. It just so happens that I know that the word 'passion' has a different meaning in 1650 as to what it means today. My friend assumes that 'passions' must be the modern understanding of the word.

Clearly this debate will go nowhere because we will be talking at cross purposes. We both have a sincere belief in what we are arguing for. BUT, makes no sense to say that because my friend is wrong he was influenced by an evil outside agency.

Elscarta, sorry for breaking my question into two parts but I want to make a distinction between,'private language' and 'public language'. The above hypothetical is what I believe to be an example of public language.

I would like to also deal with private language arguments.

There are those who say that their interpretation of scripture can be proven by appealing to a higher authority. Others will say that their interpretation is correct because it is given to them through their intellect.

I would argue that both are examples of private language arguments. It is impossible to go into great detail about private language arguments because of the problem of space. However, I would argue that both positions are a little like buying 12 copies of the SAME morning paper and claiming that; (A) you know what has happened in the world. (B) you have checked the accuracy of the reports because you have read it from 11 other sources.

I would appreciate your opinion on this as well.

Hi Tut,
Firstly can you correct your post by adding the bolded word "some" as without it the meaning of my statement becomes absolute for all interpretations, not just those which are false!:eek:

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Originally Posted by TUT317

I am interested in your conclusion. You say, 'The logical conclusion to be drawn from this is that what some people interpret the Bible to mean, no matter how sincere they may think they are in that belief, it is NOT the truth as God would have us know but it is a lie propagated by the father of all lies Satan'

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My question is how does a sincere belief end up being a propagated lie? I would have thought that a sincere belief is just a sincere belief. It may well turn out that it is a false sincere belief but that is irrelevant.

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When dealing with absolute Truth, i.e. the Word of God, then it is not irrevelant if a sincere belief is false!

Quote:

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Consider this hypothetical and give me your response.

Fred Smith said in 1650 that,' Reason is a slave of the passions' (reference to my earlier post). I am going to debate this statement with a friend. It just so happens that I know that the word 'passion' has a different meaning in 1650 as to what it means today. My friend assumes that 'passions' must be the modern understanding of the word.

Clearly this debate will go nowhere because we will be talking at cross purposes. We both have a sincere belief in what we are arguing for. BUT, makes no sense to say that because my friend is wrong he was influenced by an evil outside agency.

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Tut, you are comparing apples with oranges. Surely you understand that Satan is anti-God not anti-Fred Smith!:p Satan does not care whether anyone agrees with Fred Smith or not or whether they have the correct meaning of the word passion but he has a vested interest in seeing that the Word of God is misunderstood.

Now I am not saying that those who sincerely believe in a falsehood in regards to the Word of God will not go to Heaven, only God can be the judge of that, but it is not irrelevant that it is a falsehood. Satan may have lost the battle for that person's soul but by progagating that falsehood he gains the souls of countless others who look at Christianity and see a divided group who hold opposing views on just about everything and decide that there is no such thing as God and Truth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TUT317

There are those who say that their interpretation of scripture can be proven by appealing to a higher authority. Others will say that their interpretation is correct because it is given to them through their intellect.

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Quote:

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I would argue that both are examples of private language arguments. It is impossible to go into great detail about private language arguments because of the problem of space. However, I would argue that both positions are a little like buying 12 copies of the SAME morning paper and claiming that; (A) you know what has happened in the world. (B) you have checked the accuracy of the reports because you have read it from 11 other sources.

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Tut, I think that I understand what you mean by private language arguments but I disagree that you can apply this to Scripture.

I do not know what your beliefs are but I start from the premise that God exists and that the Bible is the Word of God. From this it is obvious that the Bible is unlike any other piece of writing. Given its supernatural origin, our interpretation of scripture is therefore influenced by the supernatural and as such cannot be treated like any ordinary piece of writing.

The second group who say that their interpretation is correct because it is given to them through their intellect are obviously delusional as they are implying that they understand completely the influence of the supernatural upon themselves!

The first group who say that their interpretation of scripture can be proven by appealing to a higher authority are correct only if the higher authority to which they appeal is God, since scripture is His Word. Now God does not usually speak directly to us,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Jesus understood this and that is why He built His Church on Peter and promised that Satan will never overcome His Church and gave Peter authority to proclaim what is the Truth.

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Now Peter is no longer around, so we cannot appeal to him directly, but the Church which Jesus built on him still exists. There is only one church that can claim an uninterrupted link to Peter and that is the Catholic Church!

Some argue that Jesus did not give this authority to the Church, but this implies that He has left His Church, since the time of Peter's death, without a final authority to turn to. Jesus knew that today, we need a final authority to turn to as much as the early Church did!

So the solution in deciding who is correct in their interpretation of scripture is to look at what the Catholic Church says is the Truth about it.

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If the first group appeal to any other authority then they run the risk that their interpretaion may be a falsehood.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

How would you follow Christ Jesus?

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Obediently.

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Why would you follow Christ?

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Because I am convinced that He is God.

[QUOTE=elscarta;2070989



Tut, you are comparing apples with oranges. Surely you understand that Satan is anti-God not anti-Fred Smith!:p Satan does not care whether anyone agrees with Fred Smith or not or whether they have the correct meaning of the word passion but he has a vested interest in seeing that the Word of God is misunderstood.

Hi elscarta,

Apologies for misquoting you earlier. I can assure you that it wasn't intentional.

The following is about Descartes 'Evil Demon argument' It is a though experiment put forward by Descartes to develop his ideas of God through what he terms .'clear and distinct ideas' I don't necessarily agree with Descartes and I think the private language argument undermines Descartes position However, this is not the main point.

For Descartes God is a supreme being and therefore must be the source of all truth. The Evil Demon is also a supreme being and is the source of all lies and deception.

The Evil Demon is very much interested in Fred Smith in exactly the same way as God is interested in Fred Smith, but for totally different reasons. The Evil Demon wants to deceive Fred Smith IN ALL MATTERS, NOT JUST THEOLOGY. Why? Because the Evil Demon's deception is without limitations. In exactly the same way as God's love is without limitations.Basically the Evil Demon wants to make sure that Fred Smith does not arrive at "the truth" through some other means.

Fred Smith could easily be seen as Descartes in this experiment.

Descartes thinks that the idea of a perfect being could only have come from a perfect being. Therefore Descartes reasoned, there must be a God who created him, and who has implanted in him the idea of a perfect being who's nature is not to deceive. For Descartes this knowledge will allow him to perceive," the truth". If we have certain knowledge of God then this will rule out the possibility that he is being deceived.

I think you would want to say that Descartes is delusional . Was Descartes delusional? I guess that's up to those who read his works.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Obediently.

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Hello DeMaria, First let me say, it is nice to see you here on the Christian forum. I've often hoped we would hear from you again.

Back to the discussion, The influence for each answer is hopefully to take in consideration the reference of what was writtten as Prophecies Addressed to Jews. Then determine why we or they would follow Christ. And how would they or we follow HIM.

The Lord spoke of man being cursed to trust man in (Jeremiah 17:5). And an added fact, that for man to reach out to man, would be putting their heart away from the Lord. This being said, how then would it be safe to put our faith in Christ Jesus, who was a man? How could we trust HIM? I would like very much to bring out the reality of what brings us forward to being converted as Christians.

I believe in what is written as the spirit of truth, and God revealed and inspired every word for good reason. And I trust every word of what God has said was meant to be acknowledge as truth.

So what further truth was revealed and inspired that is written, that does permit us to trust in Jesus. How were the Jews to know, that they do remain obedient to God's word, by trusting in this man Jesus?

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Originally Posted by De Maria

Because I am convinced that He is God.

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Also referenced was (Jeremiah 17:10)how our Lord searches the hearts of man to give accordingly. The assurance of our Lord being all knowing in power to our daily intentions of right or wrong.

So what convinces us of this belief?

The sharing of your studies concerning God's Word and the OT could give a better undertanding of what brought the increase of faith, and what converted the Christian.

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Originally Posted by sndbay

So what further truth was revealed and inspired that is written, that does permit us to trust in Jesus. How were the Jews to know, that they do remain obedient to God's word, by trusting in this man Jesus?

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This is what I would offer as further revealed and inspired truth spoken by our Lord concerning the Prophecies Addressed to Jews.

Jeremaih 33:14-15-16-17-18 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

Note that our Lord says the priests which were the Levites in that period of time, would not want a man put before HIM offering meat or sacrifice continually. The Lord planned to stop what was taking place, to bring a Lord of righteousness, a branch of righteousness, who would execute judgement,and righteousness.

The need for sacrifices would be abolished because this Lord of righteousness would deliver them from sin and unrighteousness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

Back to the discussion, The influence for each answer is hopefully to take in consideration the reference of what was writtten as Prophecies Addressed to Jews. Then determine why we or they would follow Christ. And how would they or we follow HIM.

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Once again Sndbay I will ask you how do we determine the true meaning of what is written in scripture?

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Originally Posted by TUT317

I think you would want to say that Descartes is delusional . Was Descartes delusional?. I guess that's up to those who read his works.

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Actually Descartes was only foolish in his belief that reason can determine "the truth" (since he did not know any better), but anyone today who believes that is delusional (since they should know better). The difference is that today we have Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which states

"that the axiomatic method of making logical deductions from given assumptions cannot in general provide a system which is both provably complete and consistent. There will always be truth that lies beyond, that cannot be reached from a finite collection of axioms"

Paul Davies "The Mind of God"

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Originally Posted by elscarta

Once again Sndbay I will ask you how do we determine the true meaning of what is written in scripture?

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By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and by offering the evidence of scripture that will further encourage the truth.

We know it is written that when you change the glory of God that is uncorruptible into being the image of a man which is corruptible, then God gives those up to the unclean lust of their own hearts. And when changing the truth of God into a lie, and instead serve to worship the act of what they created other then the Creator is unrighteous.
(Romans 1:21-1:25)

God Does Promise

Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


Your question has shown for a second time to be off the thread, and does not show respect to the thread questions. Can you not answer the thread question?

Hello elscarta,
I can see that you and sndbay still have unfinished business so I will make this may last entry if you like.

I don't know Godel's Incomplete Theorem . Does it mean that the premise or axiom used for a deductive process in mathematics or logic is self-evidently true? I am thinking of Descartes ' We cannot think of a being which cannot not exist' Anyway, You seem to agree that Descartes would be delusional if he had knowledge of the theorem and still held onto his belief.

The only reason I have drawn on Descartes arguments is to put forward three possibilities in relation to the question of determining the true meaning of scripture.

The possibilities are:-

(A) The Evil Demon deceives people only in matters of scripture. That is, incorrect interpretation of scripture ( As I understand the arguments so far this is your position).

(B) The Evil Demon deceives all people in all matters all of the time. He is a universal deceiver ( Could be described as Descartes position).

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that can arise whenever language is involved (my position).

We can rule out (B) because we both agree that knowledge of God cannot come through the intellect.( I am not completely convinced this is true, but I will go along with you).

You position seems to be that true knowledge of the scriptures comes from reading the 'correct account'.
My question is how do we DETERMINE if an account is true unless it is first process by the intellect. When we appeal to the 'correct higher authority', are we not using our intellect to determine what is being said to us?

Given this we are back at position (C).

Hello, Tut, can I ask why you have become the Devil's advocate? Scripture says he is the deceiver, there is no qualification regarding the nature of the deceipt. He is the father of lies, such a description tells you he will deceive you no matter what language you speak or how good your understanding might be, in fact, the more intelligent and reasoning you are the greater the opportunity for deception.

The greatest deception so far is that he doesn't exist, or that he is limited in the way he will deceive us. We are now at the point where we are deceived into to thinking we rule this planet, that we have the ability to alter atmospheric conditions, that our efforts can somehow undo the mechanism God has placed in motion. We have the ability to destroy ourselves and we are being deceived into doing it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Hello, Tut, can I ask why you have become the Devil's advocate? Scripture says he is the deceiver, there is no qualification regarding the nature of the deceipt. he is the father of lies, such a description tells you he will deceive you no matter what language you speak or how good your understanding might be, in fact, the more intelligent and reasoning you are the greater the opportunity for deception.

The greatest deception so far is that he doesn't exist, or that he is limited in the way he will deceive us. We are now at the point where we are deceived into to thinking we rule this planet, that we have the ability to alter atmospheric conditions, that our efforts can somehow undo the mechanism God has placed in motion. We have the ability to destroy ourselves and we are being deceived into doing it

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Hello paraclete,

In regards to your first paragraph. Actually, that is not my position, it's Descartes. In fact, I generally disagree with Descartes philosophy. The reason I introduced it was to point out that the Evil Demon is limited in the way he can deceive us (your second paragraph).

It is difficult to sum up in a few sentences but I go along the Bouwsma's criticism of Descartes which says that it would be logically impossible for Descartes to be deceived on every single issue. If universal deception were a reality then he would have no understanding of the word deception.

I would suggests because you recognize we are being deceived into thinking we are universally deceived suggests there is no universal deception. If there were such a thing as universal deception then we would simply think we rule the planet and no other possible alternative would come to mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sndbay

By the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and by offering the evidence of scripture that will further encourage the truth.

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And what if two people both believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and offer evidence of scripture that they interpret support their position, but are contradictory to each other, what then?

In relation to my earlier posting.

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that arise whenever language is used.

I have been careful not to come down on one side or the other in this debate. I have just put forward a number of recognized positions.

I should make it clear that my position (C) cannot be proven correct. It is just the most likely empirical explanation. That is all that can be said about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elscarta

And what if two people both believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit and offer evidence of scripture that they interpret support their position, but are contradictory to each other, what then?

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The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself

I believe what the bible says because of my logic, intellect, trust, and faith.
Is there any other way?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

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Originally Posted by paraclete

The Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself

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I totally agree with this but this does not answer my question, how do you decide who really is inspired by the Holy Spirit and who is being deceived? Both people believe that they are the one who is inspired and the other is being deceived!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TUT317

In relation to my earlier posting.

(C) The Evil Demon does not involve himself in any matters of language. Misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that arise whenever language is used.

I should make it clear that my position (C) cannot be proven correct. It is just the most likely empirical explanation. That is all that can be said about it.

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What empirical evidence is there to support this claim? How many misunderstands of scripture have you analysed and how do you decide whether the misunderstandings are only the result of problems associated with language, rather than the influence of Satan?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elscarta

I totally agree with this but this does not answer my question, how do you decide who really is inspired by the Holy Spirit and who is being deceived? Both people believe that they are the one who is inspired and the other is being deceived!

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Park you ego for a while

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elscarta

What empirical evidence is there to support this claim? How many misunderstands of scripture have you analysed and how do you decide whether the misunderstandings are only the result of problems associated with language, rather than the influence of Satan?

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Hello elscarta,

I have not had any dealing with the misunderstanding of scripture, only everyday language.

'The Evil Demon does not involve himself in matters of language misunderstanding of scripture is the result of any number of problems that occur when ever language is used'
.
This premise has two possibilities (A) True (B) False. If it is true then a empirical explanation is sufficient to explain the problem.

If it is false, then you are correct and I am wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by elscarta

I totally agree with this but this does not answer my question, how do you decide who really is inspired by the Holy Spirit and who is being deceived? Both people believe that they are the one who is inspired and the other is being deceived!

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I don't think you understand what I have shown in scripture to be the answer to your question. (Romans 1:21-25)

Individuals should not take the glory of God's Word and turn it into an argument between each other. The judge of both is our Lord. When you think the wisdom of what you hold is more wise, and attempt to over throw your friend, this is nothing more then, putting glory upon your ownself in pride.

Be accountable to your own heart, and humble yourself to rest in God's glory. And allow your friend his own path. The spirit of truth is love, and faith in God.



And I might as well say good bye to this thread because it has been sunk .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

park you ego for a while

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This is not a very helpful statement as it still doesn't address the fundamental issue that I have raised. So once again I will use as an example the notion of transubstantiation.

There are Christians who believe sincerely that the Holy Spirit inspired their belief that transubstantiation is false. There are other Christians who also sincerely believe that the Holy Spirit inspired their belief that transubstantiation is true.

Now you have stated in a previous post that the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict himself, which I agree with 100% so both of the above cannot be inspired by the Holy Spirit as they are in contradiction to each other!

SO once again I ask how can we decide who has been truly inspired by the Holy Spirit and who has been deceived?

Now some may say that it doesn't matter who is correct since both are sincere in their beliefs and since God judges what is in men's hearts, both are judged righteous by God but Jesus prayed the following

John 17:20-23
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Jesus wants us all to be in complete unity and this will not happen if we say that it is all right for people to have contradictory beliefs.

elscarta,

Without putting anyone on trial or in judgement of the heart of faith, the joy of discussion concerning the Word of God, is that we as Christian, love our Saviour Jesus Christ. (unity)

And that we should be in agreement to HIS steps being followed because we believe He is the begotten Son of God.

And in giving glory to our Father, the Creator that formed us, we hold to One Faith. And yes that One Faith is holding unity in that love for Jesus Christ.

We fulfill scripture in the royal law of love unto all.(No discrimination)

"I believe"
Christ told HIS disciples that HE was the bread of life, and that HIS blood was the cup of the new testament. That is why it is written by them in testamony for what was given by the inspirtation from the HOLY SPIRIT.

On the given day in testamony to establish future celebration of passover, Christ told HIS disciples this is the body and blood that you eat, and drink. That day Christ was speaking of Himself being the lamb of scarifice for Passover. The disciples were unsure of what that meant because they had not yet come to the truth of what would take place on the cross.

Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Thereafter scripture speaks of eating and drinking the spiritual meat and drink in rememberance of what Christ did. It was a once and for all fulfillment, that had been promised by God, so that we could be set free from the bondage of sin.

Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
(1 Corthinians 11:23-11:29)


We are to eat and drink with sincerity of faith and truth for what the body of Christ has fulfilled.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Hebrew 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrew 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


~in Christ

Back on thread

Christ was the once and for all fulfillment, that had been promised by God, so that we could be set free from the bondage of sin.


Jeremiah 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

elscarta,
That is why Jesus set up His Church to be "the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." 1 Tim 3:15
That is The Church that Jesus established appointing Peter (the Rock) as its first leader.
It is also The Church that the Holy Spirit inspired to promulgate the Holy Bible.
It Is The Church that can and has officially told the world what the Bible says accurately.
Interpretation of Scripture can only be full trusted IF officially proclaimed by The Church because it is The pillar and support of the truth.
This I firmly believe and the only source of biblical interpretation I believe to be true.
Why? Because I have faith that it is the only one with the authority from God to do so.
I feel very comfortable with that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

We acknowledge by Adam came sin which offered death with satan.
And those that believe and hold One Faith in Christ Jesus, were crucified with HIM on the cross, and buried with in HIM by One Baptism.
And so we have the resurrection of the dead.
(Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. )

If we do not believe in the resurrection of the dead, then we remain as sinners unto death with satan.
1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The Fullness of Christ

1 Corinthians 15:22-23-24 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Why?
1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

I answer that question of why, knowing that we are baptized buried in Christ and raised in righteousness and newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2 Peter 3:13-14 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

~raised from the dead in Christ

sndbay,
Yes, true believers and followers of Jesus become new people and live in hope of life everlasting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The message of law put in the ark of the covenant of the LORD (bears witness against the children of satan)

Deu 31:22-23-24-25 Moses therefore wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel. And he gave Joshua the son of Nun a charge, and said, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou shalt bring the children of Israel into the land which I sware unto them: and I will be with thee. And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.


Deu 31:32 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.


The Song of Moses

Deu 32:1-4 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Deu 32:5-17 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee? Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape. But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deu 32:19-28 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this. For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.

Deu 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!

Deu 32:30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?

Deu 32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

Their vine is not the Rock known as Christ, and their field are the children of satan, the unrighteous sinner (Romans 1:29)

Deu 32:32-37 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter: Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Deu 32:38-40 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you, and be your protection. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. For I lift my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Deu 32:41-46 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.

This law was commanded to be taught every seven years because God had command Moses to do what He commands to be done.
(Deu 31:5 Deu 31:10)



REPENT and sin no more!

Hebrew 10:26-27-28-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

~raised from the dead in Christ

sndbay,
That was a lot of work,
Thanks.
Fred

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by arcura

sndbay,
That was a lot of work,
Thanks.
Fred

---

The work is a labor of love for Christ Jesus, and I would do as much as God would have me to do.

Moses was the law giver, and God remains true to HIS words spoken to Moses. As it was, it is today, that God has sent the bread of life from heaven, and we that eat of the Word of God do eat of spiritual truth. And those that gather daily from the WORD of God a certain rate. God proves them as to whether they will walk in HIS law.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Dan 9:3-4 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Remember when Daniel prayed to the Lord, God sent to Daniel skill and understanding. Telling him to go forth in the commandment of righteousness.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Christ fulfilled all that was written, so that we acknowledge it as truth, and place our trust in HIS Way, and our Father's Will is done. Because it was given as God's grace to us, HIS love for all mankind. Grace for grace/ love for love.

John 1:7 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Follow Christ Jesus

Psalm 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

1 Peter 2:21-22 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:


1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.


Trust in Christ Jesus

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.



`in Christ

This us how and why I follow Jesus
Now I abide in faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love. Jesus demonstated
Sacrificial love for us by dying for our sins, making possible our forgiveness and restoring us to fellowship with the Father. Christ's love goes beyound the cross, everything we do and face is touched by His continuing love. Everything about us hinges on love because God,
Who is love, created us in His image, because God loves us and gives us blessings and lets us share them. God knows we need time to grow, with overwhelming choices
Makes it hard to know which way io go, but our Lord and Savior shows us our need to depend on His guiding love. I understand and believe that our deepest, innermost level,
That Gods is love. I will trust Him, yield to Him, obey Him, and serve Him wholehearedly. One of the keys to our spiritual growth as Christians is believing in
Gods love at all times, in the good and bad. Without making His love our ultimate dwelling, we cannot fully live in faith and hope. I refuse to take a step or a breath without
Remaining sensitve to" the greatest of these" OUR FATHER'S LOVE.
Though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but not have love,
I am nothing.

Love and Blessing, in Jesus Name
Maggie 3

Maggie 3,
Thank you for that very nice post.
It is heartening.
Peace and kindness,
Fred