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Doctrine simply means what the Church believes, teaches and follows. So you have the things Sndbay said, baptism, incorporating Jesus' birth and death into pagan holidays, fish Friday, waving incense and many many other things that churches do in the name of Jesus that have nothing to do with Jesus... that is how I say that.
The Bible also teaches doctrine, but not all church doctrine comes from scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
You make at least two erroneous suppositions. The first is that the Church (RC) negotiates what it's doctrines. All doctrines, revealed are Divine Truth and disciplines of the Church are the result of Christ's teachings which have been passed down through the ages by the Apostles and their successors. This is the teaching Magisterium of the Church and is headed by the Pope who is made infallible with the strength of the Holy Spirit. And holding that entrance into the Kingdom of God requires (necessitates, has need of, is pre-requisite, a precondition), then baptizing children would seem to me to be a natural thing; notwithstanding the absence of any Scriptural prohibition.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Christ didn't bring division. In fact he prayed that ”all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.” (John 17: 21)
Addressing the second supposition: I can't see how (or for what reason) that one would insist that Christ Himself would bring division, especially given John 17:21. So the contention is that God was incarnate in man to bring division? He says himself I came to give testimony to the God's Truth, (Cf. John 18:37). Why would a man let alone God do such a thing; do you not recall a “house divided cannot stand”?
Added note: The Catholic Church does not depend on uniformity, rather it is one of unity.
JoeT
Doctrine refers to the knowledge imparted by teaching. It’s has the same meaning as catechesis. ‘Doctrine’ is a principle taught, not an the establishment of the principle. The principles taught by the Roman Catholic Church are Divine morals and ethics.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God. : Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) i.e. principle taught by Christ.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Many have shown that that Christ’s Birthday can be shown to be on or about December 25. And if it isn’t how is it that it’s a pagan holiday. Is it a pagan holiday today?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Wow, that hurts! No fish Friday? You mean all this time we Catholics have been fasting for no reason? Praying for no reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
There are a couple of people I know who need a double dose – you know they seem to be rather odoriferous.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
And if there were "many many other things" it would seem to me that you could list one valid complaint. There doesn’t seem to be any substantial complaints here.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
JoeT
There is baptism as Jesus taught and there is baptism as the church does.
Don't you know anything about the history of Christmas and Easter and how the church changed the dates of Jesus' birth and death to these pagan holidays? Also I would like to see your references for Jesus being born on Dec 25th. I have seen much to the contrary. Also Easter is celebrated on different days within a month or so, so how could that be the day of Jesus resurrection?
It may be a reason to you to eat fish on Fridays but it is a tradition of man not Biblical.
[QUOTE=N0help4u;1818825]There is baptism as Jesus taught and there is baptism as the church does.
Don't you know anything about the history of Christmas and Easter and how the church changed the dates of Jesus' birth and death to these pagan holidays? Also I would like to see your references for Jesus being born on Dec 25th. I have seen much to the contrary. Also Easter is celebrated on different days within a month or so, so how could that be the day of Jesus resurrection?
In what way is the baptism Jesus taught different from what the Chruch teaches?
And what dates would you prefer for Christ's birthday? The first Easter was on Passover, remember?
How does the tradition of fasting affect our faith negatively?
JoeT
Infant baptism, sprinkling.
The point isn't what I prefer but WHY would the Church choose pagan holidays to celebrate Jesus birthday?
Even with Easter and Passover being the same day why is it Christian tradition to celebrate with Easter eggs?
The date for Christmas was unsettled for many centuries. The Gospels don’t give us any help. Back dating from Zachary’s Temple service can render Christ’s birth in late December. But all the computations based on the Temples feast days are unreliable. An approach was made using Old Testament festivals suggests a September date. Among the theories already discussed is the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
The well-known solar feast...of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. …
The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam prćclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."
In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Ćquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "Sed et dominus noster nascitur mense decembris . . . VIII Kal. Ian. . . . Sed et Invicti Natalem appelant. Quis utique tam invictus nisi dominus noster? . . . Vel quod dicant Solis esse natalem, ipse est Sol iustitić." — "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."
Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol.
Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals — Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356).
But even should a deliberate and legitimate "baptism" of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The "mountain-birth" of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common: Mithra's adoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa. (Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas )
What is the importance of a Christian feast being substituted for a pagan feast? This seems logical when teaching pagans Christianity; substitute Christian observances for pagan ones.
To my knowledge Easter eggs can’t necessarily be attributed to Catholics. And if Easter eggs could be attributed to Catholics I don’t understand how this would affect one’s faith. It’s a custom my family participates in – to my knowledge none of them have been struck by lightning yet.
JoeT
Obviously you are not reading what I have posted and said. Go back to read post #69 that does reference Luke 12:51-52. The division is between evil and godly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The Father Son and Holy Spirit delivered what is possible in godly unity by faith.
Eph 4:5-6 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
To confirm what I posted refer: Posting #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
(Luke 12:51) - "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two, and two against three..."
Most people that have used times and events in the Bible have come up with September 29th as Jesus' birth day.
Here is just one of many links I have read on the subject
When Was Jesus Born? - 144000.net
Well Ok, I stand corrected. But, if you weren't so confounded cryptic I wouldn't make that kind of mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Baptism was suffered by both John and Christ. (Matthew 3:15-16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
September 29Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
From Conception, according to Jewish reckoning 280 days. AND Gentile reckoning 280 The chart of birth offered:
Day JEWISH Month Gentile Day
1 Tebeth 1st ( Dec 25-26) December 7days
2 Dec 26-27
3 Dec 27-28
8 Tebeth 8th ( Jan 1-2 )
Tebeth total 29 days
Sebat 30 days January 31 days
Adar 29 days February 29 days
Nisan 30 March 31
Zif 29 April 30
Sivan 30 May 31
Thammuz 29 June 30
AB 30 July 31
Elul 29 August 31
Ethanim 15 September 29
280 280 280
Concluded: 15TH of ETHANIM = SEPTEMBER 29, EMMUNUAL BORN
Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth
Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Plus Luke 2:2 thr 2:7 give evidence to register of tax which was the first tax made by Cyrenius under the emperor Caesar Augustus Luke 2:1... The Roman government keep documents for these registeries. and the time frame of this new first and new tax.
sufficiency in conception being Dec 24 on the eve of Mary's journey to her cousin Elizabeth. Elizabeth by scripture was with her Priest husband who was scheduled according to the course as written.
Have you read how the single word Easter was determined, and then written in place of Passover. Christ and the disciples spoke of Passover , and it was called Passover feast.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Refer: 1 Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us
Sorry to say I will not be able to continue this thread any further. Vacation time, and a flight leaving in the early hours..
God's peace to you all..
I think you guys could argue and argue and argue and you will NEVER convince each other that one of you is absolutely correct.
Manmade if not found in scripture.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Jesus explained here, as you were shown previously, that he was speaking of the physical birth and then being born again in the spirit. Nowhere in scripture does it say that water baptism is essential for salvation. If so, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross, and there would be no hope for any of the OT saints.Quote:
Baptism is an absolute necessity to enter into the Kingdom of God. : Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5) i.e. principle taught by Christ.
Have a safe trip!Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
There are many who start the 40 week count during the feast of Purim, depending on the year about 14 and 15 Adar (Feb.-March). Purim is a feast commemorating freedom; the deliverance recorded in the Book of Esther - interesting Christ is conceived to free us during the feast of freedom. As I've been told this gets us within a few days of Dec. 25. Even still, it's just as questionable as any other computation.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Assuming September 29th is correct, then how does this affect the holiness of the Roman Catholic Church?
JoeT
The truth is that I am not going to convince anyone of a spiritual truth - it is only the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of someone else who is willing to submit to God word that will convince another person of the truth found in God's word. Some use God word as the standard of truth (as I do), others rely on the teachings of the men in leadership of their church, and others rely upon other men for their teachings.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
You are right. But doesn't God want us to spread the word? The holy spirit cannot come into someone's heart if they do not hear the word... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
My own position is this:
Any tradition NOT endorsed or started by Jesus or the Apostles, including Paul is not equal to those traditions clearly written down in the Bible.
The Jews added many traditions to the Law of Moses, and so-called orthodox churches have done the same thing to scriptures. Not good!
That is what I do. The Holy Spirit can work on someone's heart, and prepare them to receive the truth, but those who are saved are to bring the truth. In the end though, the Holy Spirit will not force Himself on anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniepepsi
Exactly. I'm still working on that in myself. I'm natually a shy person (unless I'm on line) and so its difficult for me to spread His Word sometimes because I get flustered. Not embarrassed, I'm not embarrassed of my Lord or getting His word out. But I just get all tongue tied. I've been praying about it and I'm getting better at it. Its easy on line however :)
As far as jesus vs tradtition, the question did not make a lot of sense to me, but ill answer best I can understand it.
Jesus fought tradition in the ways he interacted with other people. Both his followers, and the non believers. He treated his fellow man as equals. Believing that NO ONE was better or worse than another. And I feel that this included HIMSELF. He never tried to say or even imply that he was better than his fellow man because he was the son of god. He believed we were ALL the same in the eyes of our lord.
At least that's how I understand it.
As for the religeon part of the question I don't fully understand what the OP means, so I dotn feel prepared to answer it accordingling.
I thought we were discussing tradition, not holiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
We were, but give me a few minutes - I'm in the middle of a report - I'll define Holy Tradition.Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I'm sorry jenniepepsi, but I must take exception to your statement above.
Jesus said things about Himself that could not be said of anyone else.
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one.
(KJV)
(He claimed equality with God the Father)
John 8:46
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
(KJV)
(He claimed to be free from sin)
Conversely, He said this about (some of) the Jews.
John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(KJV)
There is an infinite gap between the Son of God and children of the devil.
I stand corrected galveston. I apologies. I still have a lot of learning to do :)
Well you were right too JP in a way
Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Go with following Christ Jesus
John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
Following in thirst of HIS WORD
(Matthew 10:42) (John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. )
Think of it, to the very end, it was shown any other man can not give what Christ has given us in HIS WORD/HIS FLESH..
Good points sndbay!
Also
Welcome back from your trip!
To the OP.
Jesus fought the traditions of the Jews (Talmud) by presenting absolute TRUTH.
And that truth is HIMSELF.
Once we have made Him our LORD (boss) and study what He said and did to become disciples, we understand the difference between truth and tradition.
While tradition may sometimes convey some truth, it is not the same thing as truth, and should never be given the same weight in our considerations.
Joe,
Very well said and done.
Fred
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