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Bother Adam,
I still think that the word tithing means giving.
It is true that Abraham took from others but he did give from what he got.
And yes I am circumsize, but that took place long before I became a Catholic.
And I do give cheerfully and gladly to The Church and to others for all that I have came from God one way or another.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
My brother!Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
I never questioned the way you give, in fact I am very sure you give as you should,cheerfully and gladly!
My objection is to those who make you believe you have to give to them in a certain way instead of you giving to your neighbour in need.
It is not the heart of the giver I question,it is the heart of the asking!
If you are giving you shouldn't be doing a calculation like 10% to find a cut off or a minimum. When is enough, enough? It isn't. Each should give what they can afford to give or what ever, but not under compulsionQuote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Adam
Thanks.
Point well taken.
Fred
Yo Paraclete,Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I agree witcha... no aruguement from me. Give what you can, give cheerfully. How can you argue with the Apostle Paul? :)
Since the Tithe predates the Law, how can it be part of the law?
For those that do not believe that tithe means one tenth (1/10) please go to your concordance and do a word search.
Ah the Abraham/Melchizedek gambit, Abraham "tithed". Abraham did not tithe, no part of Abraham's estate or income was given to Melchizedek. Abraham gave him 10% of property that had been stolen by someoneelse and recovered. If you want to use this as an example then you will be on the wrong side of the Law when you apply it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
The modern tithe is an invented doctrine taken from the Law of the Israelites and imposed on Christians only after centuries. This is why you will not find tithing in the New Testament just as you will not find many Christian practices in the New Testament. It is part of a doctrine of works imposed by a Church no longer led by the Spirit, merely a tradition of man
And that my friend is exactly why in the church as a whole only 15% of people tithe and that is why most traditional religions are not receiving the full blessings of the Lord.
No matter how you slice it, you cannot out give God. I could go on for pages on the blessings I have personally and as a family have received in the last 7 months because we tithe and above that give.
This is another example of people trying to justify not doing what God has instructed and then wondering why they do not receive the full blessings that God has for them. And this discussion will never have a resolution.
So thanks for the laughs, I am done!
No one suggested you should not give, but "giving" to a formula lacks the spirit of generosity which is required for God to respond with abundant blessings. God will respond according to his word (2 Cor 9) so if you have been giving in the manner you describe then obviously you will be blessed. This no laughing matter, but serious stuffQuote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
450donn,
Thanks, I agree.
My Church asks (not demands or threatens) and I give as asked.
It knows what it needs to serve us and the Lord what with all the various church expenses.
It is a way for The Church to communicate with the people on what those needs are and of course the pastor needs something to live on also.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
THE CHURCH of TOMORROW
-by Andrew Strom.
A lot of people probably read some of our writings and wonder,
"Where is all this headed? What is the goal?" A glib answer might
Be- "We want to get back to real 'New Testament' Christianity."
But what exactly does that look like?
This is an important topic - and something I have pondered a great
Deal over the years. What exactly would the 'New Testament Church'
Look like if it was translated into a modern western city?
To get started, I want you to forget about today's church just for a
Moment - with all her obvious problems and contradictions, and
Picture something quite different. I want you to imagine that you
Are still living in the same city, in the same year, but you are right
In the middle of a 'Book of Acts'-type scenario. Somehow everything
Has changed.
For some reason, all of the Spirit-filled Christians in your city have
Left their Denominations and divisions behind. They have truly begun
To fulfill the prayer of Jesus - "That they all may be ONE". They now
Hold huge gatherings all over the city - right out in the open. And as
Well as these united gatherings, on most streets there is now a
House-meeting, where all the Spirit-filled believers from that street
Gather together, eating and sharing and having communion, etc.
(ie. A "NEIGHBORHOOD CHURCH"). The power of God flowing in
These house-meetings is amazing. Many healings and miracles
Are occurring. The 'gifts' flow freely every day.
It seems also that many of the church buildings and cathedrals have
Simply been abandoned. No longer do Christians want to hide them-
Selves away behind "four walls". They want to gather out where the
People are - presenting Jesus to the whole world. They want to be
Truly "one body". There is no way that any of their old buildings
Could contain the crowds, anyhow.
And the men whom God has raised up to lead this vast movement
Do not seem much like the 'Reverends' or even the 'televangelists'
Of old. In fact, quite a few of them have never even been to Bible
College, and they seem to be very plain, ordinary people from
Humble backgrounds. But what an anointing! It is very clear to
Everyone that these 'apostles and prophets' (as they are known)
Have spent many years in prayer and brokenness before God -
Drawing closer and closer to Him. When they speak, the very fear
Of the Lord seems to come down, and many people repent deeply
Of their sins. Demons are cast out and the blind and crippled are
Made whole. -These kinds of things are happening all the time.
The whole city is just in awe of what is going on, and thousands
Upon thousands are being saved. Even the newspapers and
Television are full of it.
As soon as someone repents they are immediately baptized in
Water and hands are laid on them for the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
-This is expected from day one! And it is also expected that every
Christian has a gift and calling from God - and that they should be
Encouraged to move forward and fulfill their calling. No longer is
There a distinction made between those who are "ministers" and
Those who are merely 'laity'. Now it is expected that EVERYONE
Is a minister of the Lord! (However, there are 'elders' - i.e.. Older
Christians to guide things).
Some of the bishops and pastors from several denominations have
Actually denounced this great move of God very strongly. They say
It is "deception" and warn their people to stay away. (-Every Revival
In history has been accused of this - usually by religious leaders).
But to be honest, it is so obvious to most people that God is the
One behind it all, that very few take these men seriously. The Spirit
Of God is sweeping all before Him. The glory of the Lord has come.
One of the reasons that these leaders are so upset is that a lot of
The Christians' GIVING now does not go to church buildings, but
Rather to the POOR. In fact, God has spoken to many people to
Start supporting widows and orphans overseas, etc. They also give
Generously to anyone in their midst who is in need. Many even sell
Their own possessions in order to do this.
The huge over-riding theme of this great movement is LOVE.
"Behold how they love one another" is the catch-cry of many who
Watch this 'new church' in action. And everyone is given too much PRAYER.
And so, gathering "as one" in the outdoors and breaking bread from
House to house, they eat together with glad and sincere hearts,
Praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord
Adds to their number daily those who are being saved.
CAN This REALLY HAPPEN?
The above description is taken straight out of the Book of Acts - as
Applied to today. Everything in the above paragraphs is put there to
Give you an idea of what it would be like to live in the Jerusalem
Church at the start of Acts. -And it was like that for YEARS. Imagine
The impact of such a church on the world around it! God is wanting
To do this again. And He wants to use ordinary people like you and
Me to help bring it to pass.
I am convinced that we are NOT supposed to treat the early church
As a "special case". It was given to us as an 'example'. It is what
The "normal" church should be like all the time! And yet we have
Fallen so far below this standard. Only in times of Revival do we
Approach it again for a time. But I believe it is supposed to be
"normal" for the church to be like this - day in and day out. This
Is the way that Jesus always wanted us to be.
However, one thing is clear. It will take a great "SHAKING" for us
To get anywhere close to the above description today. You have to
Be aware that in order to get there from here, a whole lot of
'hierarchies' and church boards and careers and titles and positions
Would be on the line. And a lot of men simply don't want to lose
Those things. It doesn't matter to them whether it is Truth or not. If
It affects their reputation, their position or their organization, they
Will oppose it with everything they have.
Sadly it is very difficult to see a "smooth" transition to this kind of
Christianity. I believe we are in for a shaky ride. But I certainly
Believe that it is on God's agenda. And like the Great Reformation
Before it, I believe He will do WHATEVER IT TAKES in order to
Get us there.
Here's to true 'NEW TESTAMENT' Christianity, my friends - the
Kind that Jesus and the apostles actually invented in the beginning.
Let us settle for nothing less - WHATEVER IT TAKES.
adam7gur,
What a beautiful picture you painted with words.
At almost 77 years old I think I will not live long enough to see it happen, if ever.
After the great tribulations come in the future there may be some movement in that direction.
The mega churches of today with several thousand in a congregation moving out into the streets or city parks would be a sight to behold for they would take up several acres of space.
Jesus established His Church and said the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
That and other scripture lessons indicate to me that there will be a Church or churches of some kind in existence when He returns.
Just what they will be like then is anyone's speculation.
IF the return is as soon as several million now believe and are preaching then the Churches of today will be very much like those a few years from now.
But I do believe that the second coming is much more than 10 or 20 years from now.
If the Lord so wills, those of us that pass this life soon and into the heavenly kingdom will be able to see from heaven what the Church is like when Jesus does return in great glory.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
My brother!
The picture was painted by Andrew Strom and not myself.I was only very happy with it just as you are,and I thought it would be nice for others to see this also!
Be blessed always!
Adam,
Thanks
Fred
Thanks Adam for presenting a picture of the way the Church should operate, truly on New Testament principlesQuote:
Originally Posted by adam7gur
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I would say... tithe on the net after taxes, gas, electric (all necessities). But you can't go calling a $600k house a necessity, a luxurious car a necessity, etc. I know you already have the bills coming in for that... but you should think about that before you buy it. Tithe first and if you still have money for an expensive house and car, by all means... go ahead!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mari49x
P.S. I didn't mean you personally. :D Just people in general.
mari49x,
I tithe 10% after taxes.
And of course some of that tax money goes to help the poor, the out of work, and the hungry.
That's it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
The tithe is an Old Testament concept. The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were to give 10% of everything they earned—or the crops and animals they grew—to the Tabernacle / Temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Believers in Christ are not commanded to give 10% of their income. Each and every Christian should diligently pray and seek God’s wisdom as to how much he or she should give (James 1:5). Many people believe that the Old Testament tithe is a good principle for believers to follow. Giving 10% of your income back to God demonstrates your thankfulness to Him for what He has provided and helps you to remember to rely on God instead of on riches.
The Bible does not specifically say whether we should give 10% off our gross or net income. The Old Testament teaches the principle of firstfruits (Exodus 23:16; 34:22; Leviticus 2:12-14; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Old Testament believers gave from the best of their crops, not the leftovers. The same principle should apply to our giving today. Again, a believer should give what he believes God would have him give. It all goes back to the attitude of the heart. Are we giving out of reverence for God or out of selfishness for our own wealth? “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Corinthians 9:7).
This discussion has gone on for a really long time and people still apparently will not do a study of the tithe or tithing on their own. This is amazing to me. The biblical principal of tithing is based on not appeasing God, nor is it based on paying for the church. God after all does not need your money. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Instead tithing is a teaching tool. Anytime someone wants to discuss our money we get very defensive. That is human nature I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildOfGod_1
If I were to go into all of the details of how God has provided for us in the last 25 months it would make for a really long post. Instead suffice it that without our tithing (the full 10%) and offering above and beyond that, there would be no way we could have survived two job losses like we have in this economy. There is no way I can out give God, but it sure is fun trying, and then seeing how He repays us for our time/talents/energy/money.
450donn,
Good for you.
God has also been very good to me.
"Praise God from whom all blessing flow."
Peace and kindness, Fred
Yes gross is the right amount for 10% of tithe but the word of the Lord says give what belong to Ceasars to Ceasers and What belongs to God to God. Yes the Tax, pension funds, Medical aid and other deductions are taken from our gross income. My question is that, How do I implement tithing in this manner because my net is what is left actually belongs to God? Please correct if I am wrong.
shaikana,
We are to give of our first fruits.
That is our gross income each time we are paid or get a total profit from sales.
To me that means that God gets His share before anyone else gets any.
That is before any taxes or anything else is taken out.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
It's really easy and you don't need to calculate anything. 2 Corinthians 9 says give what you have decided to give and do it generously and cheerfully and then you will have more to giveQuote:
Originally Posted by shaikana
paraclete.
Thanks for posting your comment about 2 Corinthians 9 .
It surely helps solve the problem first asked on this thread.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Yes now I know, because in Proverbs 3:9, Its states that we should honour God with the wealth and the first fruit of our income.
Christ gave his first born. And tithe is 10% of gross. God has opened the doors for you to be apBle to work. All he wants is 10% and we get to keep 90%. Man that's a deal. And your money will be cursed of you don't give back what belongs to God anyway. You can't out give God.. try any see what he does in your like. God bless.
Mot,
All of our money will be cursed if we don't give 10%? I think you are wrong.
Although I have taught my kids to give the 10 % of their earnings to the Lord because I think it is a good standard. We are no longer under the law, the only instruction for the believer today is that the Lord loves a cheerful giver and so give cheerfully.
Exactly. The tithe is not a New Testament concept, and Jesus never really mentioned it. The New Testament principle is offering, not tithe, which means if you make enough that you want to offer 90%, that's okay. But if you have nothing and can't even do 1%, God understands and won't be upset about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
Uh, sorry, we are still under the law. Jesus taught that he did not come to replace the law, but to fulfill the law. There is a hugh difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
MT 5-17,18; NASB
Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until Heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
So right there in this one passage is the fact that we are still under the law. So the tithe is still valid. Not paying the tithe (10% of your gross) is incorrect.
450donn,
Wow. You are really wrong. Think you need to hang out with me on AMHD more and learn. Ha.
I can start a thread about law and grace and we can discuss it better.
He did fulfill it. That's why we're not under it any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
OK, so how do you justify your answer taking this into context?
For truly I say to you, until Heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Ok now what does the word accomplished mean? It means "finished" and we know that on the Cross Jesus said it is finished, in other words there was not anything left to do. This is why Christians believe that they are not under Law but under grace, because Jesus fulfilled the Law. So you remain under the curse of the Law if you want to and strive to be worthy and I will accept the Lord's GraceQuote:
not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Donn,Quote:
Originally Posted by 450donn
We are told by the apostle Paul to rightly divide the word of truth. Why did he say "divide"? I believe one reason is because when we read a book of the bible we need to understand who it is written to. It is ALL written for us but it is not all written directly to us. Jesus came to the Jew, he is speaking directly to the Jews of his day and they were under the law. And while he is the eptome of grace, the revelation of the gospel of grace and living under grace is not completely understood until the Lord Jesus revealed it PAUL. The 12 did not receive the gospel of grace... PAUL did. And Paul makes it very clear that we are not under the law any longer.
If Christians do not understand the difference of being under the law and living under grace I do not believe they will be very successful in their Christian walk.
In Galatians 2:9 Paul writes:
James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
They had a gentlemen's agreement that Paul would preach his gospel of grace to the Gentiles and the 12 would stick to preaching to the Jews who were still very much under the law. It was difficult for Peter to understand Paul's writings.
When Paul writes about giving he states clearly to be cheerful about it and to give as the Lord has prospered you. There is NO law given as to the amount.
Having said ALL of that, Abraham tithed. Abraham lived long before the law. I think it is a good standard if you can do it and do it cheerfully.
Incidentally, in Galatians 2:9 did you know that James means to overthrow, or to replace, Peter means stone and John means grace.
Replace the stone ( or the law ) with Grace. It isn't a coincidence. :)
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