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You are altering the words. Scripture says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
"the keys of the kingdom of heaven"
But I don't see that it makes any difference. However, since we agree that they keys refer to the kingdom of heaven. Please answer the question.
What do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?
I answered that in post #79.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Time for bed, am a working girl. Good night.
No, you did not. You gave additional details which appears to contradict earlier comments about what and how the keys are used. Earlier you said that they had nothing to do with salvation, and in post 79 you appear to be saying that they do relate to salvation. So the original question remains - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I am not sure why you are avoiding the question.
Tj3,
Yes, forgiveness of sins are necessary for salvation.
I'm glad you agree with that.
Fred
Joe,
Yes there is historical evidence that there were priest in the early Church.
Example, Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, therefore a priest.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
It is told in scripture who holds the Keys... and it also tells us who the key is which will open the gates of heaven which no man can shut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
The church which holds to the Key of David... Who is the key of David? = Christ, and His hertigate by flesh that walked on earth. The Word that was made flesh to show us the way. The Word which we are to eat, the bread of Life. The keys are Chirst's ways which He has shown us.. We are to walk in Christ as did Christ walk in His Father's will. There is no other way!
The angel told God of this church who by their works held true the Keys: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
The reward for that fellowship in Christ that hast kept the word of God's patience, So God wilt keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Revelation 3:10)
Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
So true, and it is shown in scripture in the words to the the churches. Each are weak, but one did rest on Christ, and remained in His strength holding true to His words. Rather then the norm who teach the fellowship of man, and make void the word of God. They do tempt God, and do try His patiences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
And a second one will suffer tribulation but are promises if they remain faithful shall not be hurt of the seond death.
The remaining 5 must repent!
Christ made us kings and priest unto God His Father. (Revelation 1:6) To Christ be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 3:15Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth..
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Luke 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Deny himself = deny man's ways
take up his cross = suffer to the righteousness of God's will
follow me = as Christ walked in his Father's Will
This would be as Christ has shown for fellowship as priests in the house of God so to do.. all glory and praise to Christ Jesus...
Exactly...Because this includes any church that leads with authority should not, even in weakness, think they can change what is written to include man's ways. Because Christ clearly stated to follow His way doing the will of God. We are to do what is pleasing in God's eye, and God the Father was known to say He was pleased in Christ His begotten Son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
I Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Shepherds protect and lead their sheep .. anointed by Christ, those who follow ...
I Cor 3:6-7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
I Cor 3:8-9 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
husbandry = the field of the world = all belong to the Creator who is the power and strength over our weaknesses.
Short sighted or myopic is in not being able to see according to His divine power which gives unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue. That by Christ and all that He has promised we might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Also giving us all diligence, to add to our faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge, And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Clearly one who sees that it is Christ that gives all is "not short sighted"..
2 Peter 2:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of lifeQuote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Oh Fred, you keep up with the old line. Not only is there no historical or Biblical evidence, even if he were a bishop of Rome, that would not make him a priest.
sndbay,
You said, "The lie is found in words that void, and change what is written. That teach something other then what Christ has promised. In words that do not proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
So who do you claim is telling the lie?
It certainly is NOT The Catholic Church for it DOES "proclaim Christ over all power on earth. Kings and priests under His direction and authority to labor according to His ways. Christ giving His angels charge over their works and labors, to keep them in His ways. The Holy Spirit is with us, which is a reality of life"
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Do you agree with these statements? Or will you join me in saying that these statements are wrong?
"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary"
"...we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to mary and call on her holy name, than we should if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour;"
Wondergirl, just in case you are awake and home from work, I am still interested in your answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Tj3,
I ask Mary to play to Jesus for me some time.
That's it.
That's what I believe.
I believe that the saints can pray for us and Mary is a special one of them being the Mother of God the Son.
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Then are you saying that you agree with these statements?
"And shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary"
"...we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to mary and call on her holy name, than we should if we called on the name of Jesus our Saviour;"
Change what is written? Nobody has changed what was written. No, more cunning games are played by forces that oppose God. Why change the writing, after all there must be thousands, likely millions, of copies of Scripture. Can you imagine running around the world with pen and eraser scrubbing out words and writing in new ones? But, why rub out written words when you can simply change the meaning of the written word? Better still, make the words subjective, different meaning for different folks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Too smart for that? Consider this. The Holy Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, its leaders chosen by Christ, Her scriptures inspired by God, universally ministering One faith to 50 or more generations, always teaching the same One, Holy, and Apostolic faith in Christ. Not for a few decades, nor a few centuries, rather for two millennia. Each day, each month, each year, faithfully ministering to the Divine institution of the Mass for two millennia. Proof of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is reveled in both Scripture and Tradition.
Two thousand years, 50 generations, two hundred decades; this spans across most of mankind's history on this little green marble; a length of time nearly impossible for man to grasp. And for all of these millennia we have understood and believed in the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. And now, you would suggest that it's a lie. If so then our God is indeed cruel, because it would be His lie. But, rather than re-write the words, Wyclif, Luther, and others chose simply to change the meaning. Why with their god-like wisdom, less than 500 years ago, decided that the Apostles didn't mean what the Church faithfully taught for all this time. Why change the written word, when with propaganda the entire meaning can be turned up-side down?
Lies? To make a lie of the Catholic Church is to destroy all of Christendom; the devil's work for sure.
JoeT
Joe,
Well said.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Fred
Luther loved the Church and had no intention of leaving it. He was excomunicated for daring to state out loud that people don't have to pay money before God will forgive their sins. The Lutheran Church kept much of the liturgy, music, and trappings of the Catholic Church, plus most of the doctrines.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Wondergirl.
That is true.
For 30 years I was a Lutheran.
But now I have come Home to The Church.
Fred
Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Fred
Where does Jesus tell us to ask His mother for requests of promises?
Christ taught us to pray... To The Father, just as Christ himself did.. He ensampled His teaching on Mt Olive..
AND.. Power and faith in Christ is shown when we ask anything in Christ name, when we pray...
We are God's children, and Our Father expects us to listen... The fulfillment of righteousness is to proclaim Christ as the begotten Son of God without shame or doubt. Any method that causes us to go else where is wrong, and is does show your doubt in what Christ told us. He is the Way!
Tell me, does your method in doing other then what Christ Himself did, show that you trust in Him? Does it show love, and worthiness to Christ? I think it makes it appear, as if you think His promise to hear you is being neglected.
The child of God who walks in Christ has no shame or doubt.. They are obedent to the Father's Will.
This is off thread...
Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Tell me how has baptism change? What was written and instructed? I do not single out the Catholic church in error... What I tell you is what is written, hear Christ and follow His way.
John baptized where there was enough water.. (John 3:23)
And in (Acts 8:38) is the testimony of when you can be baptized.
Jesus ensampled the fulfillment of baptism being an act of righteousness .. Christ said suffer it so now... (Matthew 3:15)
Do you understand what suffer it means? The following verse in Corinthians tells us...
1 Corinthians 4:21 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
What did God wants us to do after the birth of a new baby?
What does The Word say about not doing the Will of God?
off thread
Good question. And here is another, where ido we find any example in scripture of a Christian praying to a dead saint?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
And so how did Baptism get into this? More supposed lies?Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
Surly, you wouldn't forbid little children from entering the Kingdom of God, would you?
"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15 Amen I say to you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter into it. 16 And embracing them and laying his hands upon them, he blessed them." Mark 10:14-16
There's a problem for some with this next verse. It requires 'work'! “DO PENANCE” DO PENANCE; DO WORK, Oh to my chagrin:
Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to that entire are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39
AND “THE PROMISE IS TO YOU AND TO YOUR CHILDREN”? What promises? Those made by God, the merits of baptism.
Tradition also speaks to baptizing children; some holding it heresy to withhold baptism for a child:
But maybe the lie is in the false accusations? "Christ came to save all who are reborn through Him to God — infants, children, and youths" (infantes et parvulos et pueros). St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 2.22 (circa 2nd century A.D.)
"If you wish to be a Catholic, do not believe, nor say, nor teach, that infants who die before baptism can obtain the remission of original sin." St. Augustine, On the Soul, Book III
"Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ” St. Augustine, Epistle 28
Entrance into the Kingdom of God requires a work, a work of faith, a work having both form and matter, baptism, “No one is excepted, not the infant, not the one hindered by any necessity." St. Ambrose, II De Abraham. c. xi.
So, where's the lie?
JoeT
No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tj3
Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..
( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!
The little children from the the beginning of birth are God's. For all souls belong to God. (Ezekiel 18:4)Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The little children do their Father's Will, they follow.... Christ ensampled that fact that little children are blessed. God pour water upon the seed of our off springs in blessing. Trust His word..
Isaiah 44:3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
No where in that scripture does it say baptise the little children.. It doesn't because it can be found in (Acts 8:38) when we are able to be baptized.. It is a righteous act of choice in proclaiming your faith in Christ the begotten Son of God.
The promise is The Holy Spirit... And yes they too shall receive The Holy Spirit when they make the choice to be baptized. When their proclaim their love and faith in Christ Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
The man made rules have it covered in doing things their way... That which you have quoted makes it appear that Christ mother and father did evil..Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Scripture was written, and is The Word of God... I trust in His way and do His Will
Luke 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)
Now you're adding YOUR tradition to the Scripture. As I pointed out, Catholic Tradition is quite different.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
What authority supports your position? If you say the Bible, then my response would be that Catholic Tradition wrote Scripture. The authority that supports my position is the Magisterium of the Church.
JoeT
Joe,
And I support it also.
I support The Church's traditional teaching rather than that of man outside of the
Magisterium.
Fred
What is the Magisterium?
Wondergirl,
The Magiserium is composed of the leading servants of the Church.
They are the ones who, with the help and guidance of The Holy Spirit, decide the stand The Church must take in regard to what the Bible says.
They, with the Pope, (and only them) produce the official teaching of The Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.
Where Joe? Where have I listed a tradition other then what is written in scripture?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeT777
Quote what you feel is my tradition?
Fred,Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The context of what I am speak is scripture.. The Word.. The flesh that was Christ.. His way, His ensample of all that was written.
Hebrew 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
The Truth that holds fast to Christ and His way...
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living MagisteriumQuote:
Originally Posted by arcura
JoeT
sndbay,
SO does the Magisterium.
By the way, I think Joe was referring to the Protestant tradition of sola scriptora which is NOT a biblical teaching.
Quit the contrary for the bible speaks of teaching or preaching and holding fast to the traditions taught by the Apostles.
Some of those traditions are not mentioned in the bible but were taught by the early apostles and we have them preserved in ancient documents.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Joe,
Thanks much for that.
Fred
You're right Fred, I was referring to the tradition of sola scriptura. But added to that, I don't know about the Magisterium but I do know that Acts 8:38 refers to a eunuch, not little children.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Eunuch: a castrated man, esp. one formerly employed by Oriental rulers as a harem guard or palace official.
I've always understood that Scripture interpretation should always be disciplined, rightly aligned with the Magisterium of the Church, One with Chirst.
JoeT
Quote right. I have asked a similar question to the one raised by Fred to those who believing in praying to the dead, and have asked for any place in scripture where we find and endorsement of prayer to dead saints - and to date not one has come forward with a single example.Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
This is why we so often find ourselves at odds. It is because you have your denomination's magisterium as your standard of truth. Mine is the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!Quote:
Originally Posted by sndbay
If we don't pray for the dead then we'll need to assign these verses to obscurity. Onesiphorus is dead, Paul tells us of his prayers for him. Paul asks the Lord to have mercy on Onesiphorus.
The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.(2Tim1:16-18)
Salute Prisca and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus remained at Corinth. And Trophimus I left sick at Miletus. Make haste to come before winter. Eubulus and Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brethren, salute thee. The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. (2Tim4: 19-22)
Oops: I forgot to add an Old Testament reference to the practice of praying for the dead. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead. (Sirach 7:37) The graces referred to here are those profited from alms, prayers, and sacrifices.
JoeT
And then we also find that we are not only permitted to pray for the dead but that it’s a holy thing to do so: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Macc 12:46)
Oh, what a HOLY WAY!
JoeT
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